Does Evilness around the World disprove God?

[sevgi]

Lets make this simple. Does the existance of God have any correlation or means for a World to be without evil? Ofcourse not. So, to answer your initial question, No.

bro...do u really want us to start all over again?

lol...

we are now talking about 'why' ther is or is not any correlation...

 

[Skavau]

omniscience is the ability to know all...etc.

Yes, I know.

in islam, we believe that god knows what choice we are gna make...but does not intervene in any way..

This is irrelevant. God is the initiator of the causal chain and he defines your characteristics regardless of whether he decreed what they would be or not be.

His omnisciences ensures that he ultimately knows every action you would do in your life. This eliminates all choice because from your conception you cannot do contrary to the knowledge of God. If you have a choice between A or B and God has seen that you will do then you will always choose .

They can be changed in islam...oh uve got that all wrong,...they dnt need to be altered coz we make them ourselves..

When do we make the choices if they've already been seen to happen?

And how can our choices be changed if they have been seen?

also we belieev that it is all written as we live it...but god knows what we will chose.its not written and stamped like a stage script...where in the world did u get that idea?

I got the idea from the contradiction of omniscience and free-will.

 

[Md Mashud]

If you have a choice between A or B and God has seen that you will do then you will always choose .

If you had to choose between a and B, god will just know which you will choose by your freewill without his intervention.

I know that, If I buy a ferarri and some banger and offered someone the choice between the 2 - they would pick the ferarri - But Its not like I intervened in that choice.

There is no reason that advanced knowledge has to do with interference with freewill. God knows us and he knows what we will do, not make us do what he wants.

 

[Skavau]

Lets make this simple. Does the existance of God have any correlation or means for a World to be without evil? Ofcourse not. So, to answer your initial question, No.

The existence of God in itself may not. A benevolent and omniscient God though raises a very different answer.

Also, someone has not grasped this freewill thing. Just because God know's what you will do doesn't mean you did not decide to do it - its not a complex subject.

You're right. It isn't very complicated.

A: Allah is proclaimed to be omniscient (Premise 1). Allah therefore knows the outcome of every action, event and has knowledge of every fact.
B: A human choice is an event. If I decide to go to the shops, then I am initiating a state of affairs.
C: If Allah knows the outcome of every event then he knows the outcome of every single human choice. (Premise 1)
D: If Allah knows the outcome of any future choice by any being, then the outcome described is the only possible outcome because:

D1: If any outcome from a human choice was different than Allah's knowledge then Allah would be wrong. This contradicts Premise 1.​

D2: If Allah was wrong then Allah would not be omniscient.​

E: If any choice has only one outcome then there is no choice at all. (Premise 3) (Free Choice relies on the ability to do otherwise. Free-Will relies on the ability of choice. Both are made redundant by the existence of omnipotence contained within a single source (in this scenario: contained within God). If God is omniscient then God necessarily knows the result of all actions within humanity. If all actions within humanity are known then there is no such things as Free-Choice since the outcome has already been pre-seen. If this is the case then there is no Free-Will because Free-Will is dependent upon the ability to exercise choice.)
F: If every choice has only one outcome then there is actual no choice at all, only events.
G: If Allah is omniscient, then every choice is no choice at all. (Omniscience necessitates the ability of knowledge of all outcomes: past, present and future. This also necessarily leads to God knowing all future events that will happen. If all future events are known to happen, then all human choices are also known to happen. If all human choices are known to happen and cannot change then they lose the status of 'choice' and simply become rendered into events. As Premise 3 states, choice relies on the possibility of more than one specific outcome. If only a specific outcome can happen then there is no choice, only consequences of events. Only under omnipotence can this happen as all future 'choices' would already be known by the source which possesses omnipotence.)

If Allah is omniscient, then there is no free-will at all.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I know that, If I buy a ferarri and some banger and offered someone the choice between the 2 - they would pick the ferarri - But Its not like I intervened in that choice.

There is no reason that advanced knowledge has to do with interference with freewill. God knows us and he knows what we will do, not make us do what he wants.

respect !

 

[sevgi]

Yes, I know.


This is irrelevant. God is the initiator of the causal chain and he defines your characteristics regardless of whether he decreed what they would be or not be.

His omnisciences ensures that he ultimately knows every action you would do in your life. This eliminates all choice because from your conception you cannot do contrary to the knowledge of God. If you have a choice between A or B and God has seen that you will do then you will always choose .


When do we make the choices if they've already been seen to happen?

And how can our choices be changed if they have been seen?


I got the idea from the contradiction of omniscience and free-will.

u miss the point...god hasnt seen that you will choose B...we make the choice...he smiles and says...'i knew it!'...

they havent been seen by anyone..we are livning it...you imply that we live our lives twice,,,once so god can write it down, then again so god can watch...

ive already explained how the choices dnt need to be changed,,,we make them. god doesnt decree something we dnt want and we feel the need to alter it,,,it is written as we live it and as he simultaneiously sees it.

also...he takes note of our prayers etc and moulds our life paths for us, so we come up with the choices which best suit us.we pray...he guids...we choose.no intervention on the choosing...no intervention on what we want in our prayers...he simply does for us what we cant do ourselves...

 

[Skavau]

If you had to choose between a and B, god will just know which you will choose by your freewill without his intervention.

And you could not do contrary to his knowledge. So where is the choice?

I know that, If I buy a ferarri and some banger and offered someone the choice between the 2 - they would pick the ferarri - But Its not like I intervened in that choice.

You're not omniscient. The person could still do otherwise to your knowledge.

Irrelevent example.

There is no reason that advanced knowledge has to do with interference with freewill. God knows us and he knows what we will do, not make us do what he wants.

It does if it is infallible knowledge. You cannot do otherwise to what God has seen.

 

[Skavau]

u miss the point...god hasnt seen that you will choose B...we make the choice...he smiles and says...'i knew it!'...

He always would have known it, which eliminates the possibility of it being an actual choice.

they havent been seen by anyone..we are livning it...you imply that we live our lives twice,,,once so god can write it down, then again so god can watch...

I assert that if the Islamic world view is correct we live a life we cannot control because all of our actions have already been seen.

ive already explained how the choices dnt need to be changed,,,we make them. god doesnt decree something we dnt want and we feel the need to alter it,,,it is written as we live it and as he simultaneiously sees it.

So when do we make the choices?

 

[Md Mashud]

You see, you think God knowing what you will do at the end means that choice never existed, but it did.

For example, the chocolate bar I want to buy at the shop. I will be thinking in my head what to buy, and some reasonings will lead to me ultimatly buying one out of the choices.

Those reasonings, that I use, are not from God. But God, being all knowing, about me too, knows that I will reason in advance and know how I will reason and what I will pick in advance.

At the end, that choice of chocolate bar I bought - I can't say God made me do it can I? I had used my brain afterall.

Even the World is an example, humans forecast so much of what people do and get it right - without interferance (Research Economics). Surely God is 1 stop above us.

 

[sevgi]

And you could not do contrary to his knowledge. So where is the choice?


You're not omniscient. The person could still do otherwise to your knowledge.

Irrelevent example.


It does if it is infallible knowledge. You cannot do otherwise to what God has seen.

see my post...

 

[Md Mashud]

And you could not do contrary to his knowledge. So where is the choice?

There is no basis on choice regarding contrary of the knowledge of God, it is so simple...

 

[Skavau]

You see, you think God knowing what you will do at the end means that choice never existed, but it did.

When did it exist? When did I choose?

For example, the chocolate bar I want to buy at the shop. I will be thinking in my head what to buy, and some reasonings will lead to me ultimatly buying one out of the choices.

So? You could only always result in buying one specific chocolate bar. You could choose otherwise to what you got if God has seen you buy it.

At the end, that choice of chocolate bar I bought - I can't say God made me do it can I? I had used my brain afterall.

I'm not saying God is decreeing anyone to do anything. I'm saying that the foreknowledge of our entire existence eliminates choice. When he created us he began the causal chain which created all events we all face. Whether he created us and decided how we would be, simply decided our attributes or randomised how we would be - he still knows our future and he always knew it.

He would have created Person X for example knowing full well that X would be a rapist, murderer and torturer. He then sends X to hell for it. Could X do otherwise and was X necessary?

Even the World is an example, humans forecast so much of what people do and get it right - without interferance (Research Economics). Surely God is 1 stop above us.

Humans are not omniscient.

 

[Md Mashud]

So? You could only always result in buying one specific chocolate bar. You could choose otherwise to what you got if God has seen you buy it.

What???

I'm not saying God is decreeing anyone to do anything. I'm saying that the foreknowledge of our entire existence eliminates choice. When he created us he began the causal chain which created all events we all face. Whether he created us and decided how we would be, simply decided our attributes or randomised how we would be - he still knows our future and he always knew it.

He would have created Person X for example knowing full well that X would be a rapist, murderer and torturer. He then sends X to hell for it. Could X do otherwise and was X necessary?

X became a rapist, murderer and torturer NOT due to God. God just knew he would become one. God would not in advance know he would be if the guy did not choose to become one! The knowing of God had 0 influence on him becoming it and this arguement is spiraling around this simple rational for no reason!

Did you know? God could make judgement day happen now - and say why we go to hell - saying we would do this, do that - But we would cry "No we would never do that!" - You can see life as the undoubtable witness and evidence for yourself at the judgement day.

God knows who will go to heaven or hell - but the reasons for which they would come to this would be down to the human.

Humans are not omniscient.

Hence God 1 step above.

 

[Skavau]

What???

I meant to say couldn't.

My fault.

X became a rapist, murderer and torturer NOT due to God. God just knew he would become one.

God created X. God either created X with a random personality, a specific personality or decided his actions throughout life. In either potential, God initiated the state of events concerning X.

Did you know? God could make judgement day happen now - and say why we go to hell - saying we would do this, do that - But we would cry "No we would never do that!" - You can see life as the undoubtable witness and evidence for yourself at the judgement day.

This seems incoherent here. What is your point here?

Hence God 1 step above.

Assuming God exists.

 

[Md Mashud]

God created X. God either created X with a random personality, a specific personality or decided his actions throughout life. In either potential, God initiated the state of events concerning X.

No, God does not decide upon your character, don't know why you would blame God for your character/Personality - he just knows what your character/personality will be. He also didnt decide your actions throughout life, if you think he did thats your opinion not ours.

 

[Malaikah]

But the more important point is that you claimed we accepted the offer.

When did we accept it?

Because we are ignorant, silly.

If I agreed in such circumstances I am unaware of it and Allah would have known my eventual disagreement with the 'offer' and therefore he is forcing it upon me under pain of hellfire?

You agreed, there is no force.

The test is completely meaningless. God knows the result of all events and we have no free-will to do anything other than what God knows so under Islam there is no meaning to any test.

Just because God knows what we will do, doesn't mean we are forced to do it. It is more just that we are given the chance to prove our selves than for God to just tell us what we would have done punish/reward us accordingly.

 

[Skavau]

Because we are ignorant, silly.

Eh?

What does this have to do with my question?

You agreed, there is no force.

If I did agree then I have no recollection of it whatsoever and God would have known that once I lived my life I would not agree with any such proposal and as of such it is being forced on me under pain of hellfire?

Just because God knows what we will do, doesn't mean we are forced to do it.

But we cannot do otherwise than what we have been seen to do regardless of whether God put forward the final push.

It is more just that we are given the chance to prove our selves than for God to just tell us what we would have done punish/reward us accordingly.

Why should we feel compelled to prove ourselves to an omniscient cosmic arbiter for any reason other than fear?

And how can we prove ourselves when all of our actions in life have already been seen by this cosmic arbiter?

 

[family]

have in mind that allah is all-knowing. we do have free-will, but we do have to keep in mind that we are not all-knowing. we can't conclude anything before hand. this is a temporary world and we're like the travelers. this is a test and he[Allah swt] knows the answers and the circumstances of the test before hand. somethings are hidden and can only be comprehended by Allah[swt]. if we use our brains with pure heart and in good intentions, we might be able to see a clear picture of some concepts.

 

[guyabano]

My head is spinning.

I enjoy reading this thread but am I the only one who noticed, that this thread has gone into a loop ?

Skavau brang up the best arguments so far. Keep on going, I get another box of popcorn.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Skavau brang up the best arguments so far. Keep on going, I get another box of popcorn. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/g030.gif

really? it all sounded pretty repetitive to me.



neway, "does evil around the world disprove God?"

of course not! it just shows your abusing your free-will, Allah will pay full recompense on the day of judgement!