But why Islam?

[Md Mashud]

Quran denies the macroevolution of humans - not microevolution - which is just adaptaions of creatures - to form different breeds or variation.

Quran does not deny any science, I have a post regarding this, http://www.islamicboard.com/824800-post60.html

Regards.

 

[MustafaMc]

Science does explain the whys. It does a fantastic job of explaining the world we live in today and, importantly, how we came to exist.

Understanding the process of how we as humans and all other life around us came to be, explains very much why things are the way they are today and indeed why we are here.

Of course I’m talking about the process of evolution. It really is beautiful and elegant and has no need for the “hand of God” in order for it to proceed as it has been proceeding for billions of years. I realise that evolution as a scientific theory is a bone of contention on this forum but I wonder (without sounding condescending) whether people in this discussion have a true understanding of it? I say so only because once I fully understood evolution as a scientific concept* it was like an awakening, perhaps similar to the kind of experience many Muslims on this forum describe when they find Islam for the first time.

Since you understand the theory of evolution, why don't you explain it such that I can understand? I will grant you the single, primodial "common ancestor" for all existent and extinct life forms - eukaryotic (plant, animal, fungi) and prokaryotic (bacteria). Describe in your own words the process through which higher organisms have eveloved from lower ones. I can understand evolution in the sense of relatively minor changes within a species to adapt to a changing environment, but I don't understand how the "common ancestor" gave rise to bacteria, plants, animals and fungi. Perhaps you can explain this to me.

 

[Draco]

Perhaps you are aware of places where it does. I have yet to find anything in the Qur'an that contradicts verified modern science. I see no conflict of what modern science has proven, with any Qur'anic writings.

If you can think of some specific areas, it would be a good topic of debate. But, this section is not for debate. The Comparative Religion section will reopen soon enough.

Surely Woodrow someone of your experience and religious standing is not completely unaware of the conflict between the holy teachings and modern science. A simple Google search will reveal hundreds of articles and forums that discuss and debate it all. Here’s an interesting one that’s well worth taking the time to read and there are some scientific discrepancies mentioned near the start:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/science-and-islam/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C=

The question of why does God(swt) exist is well beyond my ability to comprehend. The only way I can fathom God(swt) could exist would be as a divine being with no beginning and no end. A being that transcends our physical world and beyond the limits of time or space.

It’s beyond my ability to comprehend it too Woodrow.

...Why he would create us and want us to live our lives in a specific manner? Good question. He has no need of us. Yet, he has planned a universe that includes us.

If he has no need for you then why lead your life according to such a specific set of rules? Why would such a set of rules exist? What's the point of even acknowledging it's existence if it has no need for you? So many unanswered questions...

 

[Draco]

Since you understand the theory of evolution, why don't you explain it such that I can understand? I will grant you the single, primodial "common ancestor" for all existent and extinct life forms - eukaryotic (plant, animal, fungi) and prokaryotic (bacteria). Describe in your own words the process through which higher organisms have eveloved from lower ones. I can understand evolution in the sense of relatively minor changes within a species to adapt to a changing environment, but I don't understand how the "common ancestor" gave rise to bacteria, plants, animals and fungi. Perhaps you can explain this to me.

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

 

[Draco]

yes i do pray. i've been an agnostic all my life and i wasn't raised in any religion. i never used to concern myself one way or the other with whether god existed or not. over the past 9 years i have come to believe in god.
i don't feel a need for a religion to worship god.
basically, i don't like religion very much and think it tends to get in the way.
i believe that god is beyond religion and that no religion can claim a monopoly on god.

That's interesting and if you don't mind me saying, a little strange. Who (or what) are you praying to? How does he/she/it hear you? Do you live your life in any particular way according to your God's wishes?

I can understand organised religion but how can a god of one person work? I hope this doesn't sound insulting but it compares very much to a child with an imaginary friend.

 

[Woodrow]

Surely Woodrow someone of your experience and religious standing is not completely unaware of the conflict between the holy teachings and modern science. A simple Google search will reveal hundreds of articles and forums that discuss and debate it all. Here’s an interesting one that’s well worth taking the time to read and there are some scientific discrepancies mentioned near the start:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/science-and-islam/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C=

I am very much aware of many of the alleged discrepancies. Yet each time I read one and than read what is actually said in the Qur'an. I find no discrepancy.

At the moment we are trying to keep the forum free from needless debate, for Ramadan. If you have patience I will be very happy for us to discuss this further and more extended in Comparative Religion, when we reopen it after Eid I believe that will be Oct. 11.

If he has no need for you then why lead your life according to such a specific set of rules? Why would such a set of rules exist? What's the point of even acknowledging it's existence if it has no need for you? So many unanswered questions...

Although Allah(swt) has no need for us he created each of us for a purpose. I do not understand the purpose.

While Allah(swt) may have no need for us, we have need for Him(swt), the rules are for our benefit and to fulfill our needs.

 

[NoName55]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

oh dear o dear!

busted big time.

you expect them (Bros. Woodrow and Mustafa) to do something that you yourself refuse to do.

They could have easily dismissed you by recommending some books and throwing some names (just like you threw in the name of an atheist "prophet")

 

[tarek29]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

Salam Darco,

I agree with you that there is people or to be specific scientist, thinkers etc... who gave their life to explain evolotuion and the result is:

Huge Number of theories, articles, book with and gainst Evolution!

in another word no one could prove it 100%!

if you ask any scientist general Question about science he will tell you that A B C scince that there is no 100 % proven theory even that were already proven, not mentioning the debatble ones!

So with evolution theories we cannot Proof anything as it will become personal opinions!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

PEACE

 

[Md Mashud]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

I think I should make it clear - Richard Dawkins book are not based on science - I say this based on experience of reading his texts and theories. Many of the things he says to do with religion - firstly are mirepresented and I could discredit the book alone on that. But when you read on, you see, the sheer amount of assumptions - theories of "this could be" or "what if", basically, its not science. It is explaining a process with theories that are not scientifically proven. Its all "faith", not scientific fact or evidenc.e

 

[snakelegs]

That's interesting and if you don't mind me saying, a little strange. Who (or what) are you praying to? How does he/she/it hear you? Do you live your life in any particular way according to your God's wishes?

I can understand organised religion but how can a god of one person work? I hope this doesn't sound insulting but it compares very much to a child with an imaginary friend.

no problem - i know it's weird. :giggling:
i pray to god same as religious people do. i do not know if he listens. i live my life according the the ethics and morals that i have developed throughout my life, which have nothing to do with god, though they differ little from religious systems of behavior. since i have come to believe in god (gradual process), my behavior is the same.
i am aware of feeling great gratitude and awe of nature.
i do not see religion and god as synonymous. i regard religions as institutionalized forms of worship. i think there are truths in all religions and there are positive benefits from the communal structure and worship.
i have always been a loner - if not for that, i might feel a need for a religion, i really don't know.

 

[bewildred]

The answer? Surat "El Kafiroon".

Bewildred S.

 

[MustafaMc]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

This is a typical non-answer that I get to my questions about naturalistic evolution. Why do I expect more? No one can explain how a unicellular common ancestor can give rise to the myriad of living and extinct species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, and fungi through a process of mutation, genetic recombination, genetic drift, natural selection, and reproductive isolation all without the intervention of a Higher Power. As far as I am concerned naturalistic evolution can do no better than I can by simply saying, "Allah created all life forms according to His Will."

 

[MustafaMc]

Its all "faith", not scientific fact or evidence.

I agree with your point that the evolution theory has a huge amount of faith in a science that does not adequately explain the origin of species. Predominantly how a destructive process, mutation, is the process by which favorable genetic variation is randomly "created".

The creation points to a Creator. I do not comprehend this Creator and Sustainer of the universe, but I accept the Quran as the last revelation of this Eternal Being. I accept Islam because the concept of the One God (Allah) and our relationship to him in Islam is simply elegant.

 

[Draco]

This is a typical non-answer that I get to my questions about naturalistic evolution. Why do I expect more? No one can explain how a unicellular common ancestor can give rise to the myriad of living and extinct species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, and fungi through a process of mutation, genetic recombination, genetic drift, natural selection, and reproductive isolation all without the intervention of a Higher Power. As far as I am concerned naturalistic evolution can do no better than I can by simply saying, "Allah created all life forms according to His Will."

Hold on everyone. I could attempt my own explanation of evolution if you really want. It’s just other’s have done a more thorough job than I could ever do on a forum, hence why I recommended a book (and to say that Dawkins is not based on real science is quite ludicrous – I’m not even going to address that comment Md Mashud but if you really don’t like him then pick another author. I find it hard to believe you have read any of his work, at least not with an unbiased mind).

Evolution is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking MustafaMC. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about life evolving from very simple organisms. Maybe you can elaborate?

Remember evolution has had billions of years to produce what we see today. The changes are small and gradual for sure, and it’s difficult for us as humans to imagine the kind or changes that can occur on a geological timescale. We are not accustomed to thinking in these number of years.

Have you actually read the book or not?

 

[thirdwatch512]

I was a full throttle Christian young earth creationist just a few weeks ago.

Then I finally bought a book about evolution.. and now I could NEVER believe in creationism.. i am a "full throttle" evolutionist now lol.

but, that is not what this topic was riginally about.
--
i think that many muslims have studied other religions.. but, i do not think it is something encouraged. i mean you never really see anyone from any religion saying "hey, go read this other religious text!" why? because it has no significance for that religion. i mean why would a christian NEED to read a qu'ran, when to chrisitans it is no different then a harry potter fictional book?

of course, the bible says to test everything, and christians SHOULD read the qu'ran and other religious texts, following what the bible says. but, people don't.

i know many muslims who have read the bible, and have studied other religions. but obviously most don't.. i do not think it is really discouraged among muslims, but it is certainly not encouraged either.

now i do disagree with woodrow.. many priests are not becomming muslim. i mean i have heard of one priest and one pastor becomming muslim, and that is all in my entire life i have heard of. also, one thing i notice among MANY converts is that most that i seem to have heard of were atheist first, THEN converted.

i have met 3 muslims in particular who i talk to regularly online.
2 became atheist, and then later became muslim.
one left christianity, and was a deist, and then became a muslim.

so yeah. some muslims might not want others to read other religious texts. but i mean i do not think it is really discouraged at all. just not encouraged.

 

[NoName55]

Hold on Draco. We could attempt our own explanation of God and Islam if you really want. It’s just that God has done a more thorough job than we could ever do on a forum, hence why I recommend a book called Quraan(and to say that Quraan is not based on Divine Revelation is quite ludicrous – I’m not even going to address that idea Draco but if you really don’t like reading it pick another forum to impress with "prophet" Dawkins and his ridiculous books. I find it sad you have not read any of it, and came here with a biased mind).

Islam is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking Draco. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about God creating all life from very simple organisms to very complex ones. Maybe you can elaborate?

Remember God has had billions of years to produce what we see today. The changes are small and gradual for sure, and it’s difficult for us as humans to imagine the kind or changes that can occur on a geological timescale. We are not accustomed to thinking in these number of years.

Have you actually read the book (Quraan) or not?

 

[MustafaMc]

Evolution is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking MustafaMC. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about life evolving from very simple organisms. Maybe you can elaborate?

I could, but I choose to drop my discussion of evolution in this thread "But why Islam?" and I let my last post stand as an answer to that question relevant to evolution.

Have you actually read the book or not?

No, I have not read the book.

Further discussion on evolution should be brought up in a different thread unless it relates to the original question.

 

[Woodrow]

?


now i do disagree with woodrow.. many priests are not becomming muslim. i mean i have heard of one priest and one pastor becomming muslim, and that is all in my entire life i have heard of. also, one thing i notice among MANY converts is that most that i seem to have heard of were atheist first, THEN converted.

simple misunderstand of each other. I intended for my statement to imply that most of the former Catholics were devout Catholics and many of them were at one time Priests or Seminarians. That does not imply anything about how many priests are reverting.

A similar statement would be to say: "Many Airline Pilots were former College students" does not mean "Many former college students are airline pilots."

 

[Woodrow]

 

[Md Mashud]

Then I finally bought a book about evolution.. and now I could NEVER believe in creationism.. i am a "full throttle" evolutionist now lol.

I can't believe 1 book could make you U-Turn, ive seen so many now and seen so many lectures/debates/texts, it never had an effect on me? What are you reading lol, it all seems the same stuff anyway.