Polygyny Advice Needed

[tigersabre]

the health insurance issue guarantees that the 2 wives will not be treated equally. no one can afford to pay medical expenses out of pocket any more. if #2 must rely on the government for her health care (welfare) - she will not get the quality health care that #1 gets.

Well, not necessarily. As I mentioned much earlier, I'm planning to transition to a different type of IT career, so it won't be as difficult for me to afford it for two (or even three) spouses. The job I will be moving into, the low end, new consultants make $70 / hour. With about a year of experience, the pay rate goes on to $125 - $150 / hour, and after 3 - 4 years, a person can expect to make $250 / hour. So, I'm making that career move in 3 months time, insha'Allah.

 

[snakelegs]

do you have any idea how much major surgery costs these days? if wife#2 or one of wife #2's children got run over and needed emergency care....can you imagine the bill? intensive care, surgery, post op care, physical therapy for months etc etc.
i think you're being a bit unrealistic on this one.

 

[tigersabre]

do you have any idea how much major surgery costs these days? if wife#2 or one of wife #2's children got run over and needed emergency care....can you imagine the bill? intensive care, surgery, post op care, physical therapy for months etc etc.
i think you're being a bit unrealistic on this one.

No, I didn't mean I would pay out of pocket - I meant that I could purchase health insurance for them.

Sorry for the confusing answer

 

[NoName55]

Finally, I think you're imagining a worst case scenario, whereas for myself, I'm prepared for a worst case scenario, but I hope to live a best case scenario, insha'Allah.

yup! if things don't turn out to be as bad as I imagined, it can be a pleasant surprise.

but seriously I have not seen a single successful polygamous marriage in England where I live now. but I have seen multiple murders related to one such marriage of a so-called scholar from Birmingham

 

[syilla]

sorry for a stupid question...

Just want to know...what the government will do if someone practise polygyny in US or UK.

I watched the family law the other day...the court took the children custody away from the mothers...

P/S:- i just met someone who her best friends is her co-wife...

 

[tigersabre]

yup! if things don't turn out to be as bad as I imagined, it can be a pleasant surprise.

but seriously I have not seen a single successful polygamous marriage in England where I live now. but I have seen multiple murders related to one such marriage of a so-called scholar from Birmingham

Heh, you know, it's funny, of my Islamic studies teachers was teaching the Fiqh of Marriage in our city, and he mentioned a story in which one wife called the teacher to complain about her husband not spending time with her or giving her her rights from one coast of the country, and then woman called from another coast to complain about the same guy! Turned out, he had married both, and neither had knowledge of the other, and the guy was doing a poor job of managing the whole thing.

I have heard a lot of bad stories, but usually, they take place because the first wife has a lot of jealousy for the second, and vice versa. There are numerous instances like my own, where the first wife is setting a lot up, or helping out with it, and at times it works out, and I'll be honest, at times I've seen that it can be complicated and can sometimes become difficult.

For myself, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I wondered if I could be someone who could do this, who could be just enough for it, and I prayed istikhaara regarding it. Had my wife not come to me the next day after I prayed, and with my not saying anything to her about polygyny, telling me that this is something I should do, in that case, I don't feel doubts any longer that this is what is wanted of me from Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

And believe me, while most brothers who don't give it serious thought and research just kind of have one aspect in mind, I'm more focused on everything else as that is a part of preparing and, as many have been concerned on here for, to make sure justice is done for all involved.

 

[tigersabre]

P/S:- i just met someone who her best friends is her co-wife...

See this? This happens as well, alhamdullillaah.

 

[AnonymousPoster]

First of all I don't believe that your wife is supporting you on your 2nd marriage..^o):uuh:

Secondly, would you please answer some of my questions?

1. Are you a really good practicing muslim, who follows all of the Sunnah of the beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW? For example,

Do you have a naturally grown beard like the Prophet Muhammad SAW (not a fashionable one ^o))

Do you dress like Prophet Muhammad SAW?

Do you pray every salaat in the masjid?

Do you lower your gaze for every non-mahram?

Do you really treat your wife like the Prophet Muhammad SAW treated his?

These are a few questions AND I am sure you cannot answer them for the better,
If you really want to wed more than one wife, according to Prophet Muhammad SAW, then FIRST you have to follow all of the other Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad SAW..
So, think about it...

 

[syilla]

Oh yeah...the other day i was on muslimmomscafe forum...

and this one lady is finding herself a co-wife.

is this your wife? probably not hehe

 

[tigersabre]

First of all I don't believe that your wife is supporting you on your 2nd marriage..^o):uuh:

Secondly, would you please answer some of my questions?

1. Are you a really good practicing muslim, who follows all of the Sunnah of the beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW? For example,

Do you have a naturally grown beard like the Prophet Muhammad SAW (not a fashionable one ^o))

Do you dress like Prophet Muhammad SAW?

Do you pray every salaat in the masjid?

Do you lower your gaze for every non-mahram?

Do you really treat your wife like the Prophet Muhammad SAW treated his?

These are a few questions AND I am sure you cannot answer them for the better,
If you really want to wed more than one wife, according to Prophet Muhammad SAW, then FIRST you have to follow all of the other Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad SAW..
So, think about it...

Salaam alaykum Anonymous Gender,

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

Fourthly, one cannot call himself a "good, practicing Muslim." That is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to judge. What I can say is that I try my best, and I ask Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to guide me to what pleases Him and to keep me away from what does not please Him.

Fifthly, one can never say, "I treat my wife just like the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim treated his" because he has already said that he treats his wives the best, so none of us will ever achieve that.

As to your specific questions, I follow and have implemented the opinions on islamqa to the best of my abilities.

 

[tigersabre]

Oh yeah...the other day i was on muslimmomscafe forum...

and this one lady is finding herself a co-wife.

is this your wife? probably not hehe

You never know, my wife is quite active, alhamdullillaah

 

[NoName55]

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs

reminds me of another thread in advice forum where a girl who has a boyfriend, seeking advice about how to persuade her "wicked" father to let her wear niqaab or some thing.

also reminds me about few people here including a mullah (former member) who bang on at me for having bad manners yet they see no wrong in pronouncing takfir, calling people stupid, idiot, moronic mind reader, faasiq, munaafiq etc.

 

[tigersabre]

Yes, this is unfortunate. In one of our classes, which dealt with the Historical Development of Fiqh, the sisters were asking, what is salafi, and so forth, and the shaykh said, there are people who ascribe themselves to the practice of the salaf, meaning, they try to practice their actions as the salaf did, but they are not truly "salafi", and why is that? Because their etiquettes, their manners, their character, is not like that of the salaf.

They waste their time issuing fatwas on everyone and everything (these are the laypeople, mind you), they label everyone without first ascertaining all the required information of a specific situation, they backbite people without even realizing it, and then will have the audacity to say, "We're just trying to warn everyone."

When people stop focusing on others and start focusing on themselves, they will begin to see a world of a difference in themselves.

 

[YusufNoor]

thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my questions brother tigersabre, i do appreciate it.

these 2 seem, to a new Muslim to be in conflict with each other:

Another aspect of this is the shortage of practicing Muslim men. By practicing I mean that they truly have a connection with God and do their best to prioritize the commandment of God in our scripture the Qur'aan, and through his prophet in the ahadeeth.

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

first we pick and choose which laws we are going to follow and NOW we choose which Sunnah we will bother with... :uhwhat
do you really have Alims telling to ignore Sunnah? ffended:

will you tell me at which Masjid your friend is Imam at?

also, i spent some time as a trustee on health and welfare programs, it should be easy to insure your children by any wife, however, trying to get another "significant other" insured may not be so easy, especially as you are already married. adverse selection would come into play and most trustees would have to deny her coverage. any thought?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can't believe that I, a Christian minister who believes that God created us to live one man and one woman bound in holy matrimony, feel a need to defend Tigersabre for his plans for multiple Islam marraiges on an Islamic forum, but here goes.


What Tigersabre proposes would not violate any federal or state law where he lives in Illinois. Illinois does NOT recognize common law marriage, unless that legal status is achieved elsewhere and the couple moves here. Not considering religion at all, in the state of Illinois a legally married man could live with as many women as he wants, father children with them (all being by the state regarded as illegitimate) and continue this way indefinitely, and all the state will recognize is his legal marriage to his one wife. There are no laws against cohabitation, adultery, or any other form of consensual living arrangements between competent adults in the state of Illinois. The only thing that would be illegal in all of Tigersabre's plans would be if he was to go to the county courthouse and register two marriages at the same time -- that would be bigamy, but he has no intention of trying to register his Islamic "marriage(s)" as a legal marriage in the state of Illinois or elsewhere. Thus he would not be violating any laws. As I understand it, this then also clears the prohibitions that some people have found in the Qur'an.

As far as providing for his children. The state of Illinois does provide guaranteed health care for children. My daughter and her husband (typical Christian marriage) have 3 children. He has insurance through his company. The company offers them the opportunity to buy health insurance for the family through the company as well. They have done so for my daughter but not the children. The reason is that they have chosen to take advantage of the laws of the state that provides the same coverage at no cost to them. I do not think that they are playing the system, I think that was the very intent of the system to make things easier on families to provide health care for their children. If Tigersabre's "other wives" take advantage of this in their non-traditional families, as an Illinois tax payer, I don't begrudge them doing so any more than I do my daughter in her traditional family. One must note, that while this may be Tigersabre's plan, he will have no rights with regard to these children unless his non-legal status wives elect to give them to him. That will be at their discreation not his. So they will decide whether to utilize the state's insurance program for children, not Tigersabre. Should so many people utilize this insurance plan that it becomes too big of a burden on the tax payer, then we (the Illinois taxpayer through our legislature) would have to revisit the whole concept and decide whether to continue it, reduce it, or reduce the number of new roads built for Chicago.

As far as providing more than the minimal level of insurance for his children and any sort of insurance for his wives, Tigersabre could still elect to buy health insurance privately, or he might find the rare business would even provide coverage. Many people are not covered by any sort of company or state provided insurance and have to finance it themselves. This includes most lawyers, electricians, plumbers, farmers, shopkeepers and (ironically) doctors -- pretty much anyone who is in business for themselves. And there are dozens of companies out there selling insurance to meet these needs. You just have to have the dollars to afford it. Something that Tigersabre says he plans to have in line before venturing into the realm he speaks of.

So, though I am against the concept of plural marriage on religious grounds, as a citizen of a country that (supposedly) does not pass laws based on religion and a citizen of the state in which Tigersabre would be doing this, I find no grounds for objection to his specific plan, other than my own religious views.

 

[Jayda]

hola Grace Seeker,

perhaps it would be better to put the law of God before the law of men. as you say you are a Christian minister, you believe in Gods plan for men and women, that should come before everything else. perhaps there are legal issues involved here but it's best to let the lawyers and politicians muddy their hands in it.

i do not mean anything personal... but it is a bit like 'Christians' who defend gay marriage, abortion or other extremely anti Christian values. you cannot attest to one thing on Sunday and then another thing some other day of the week.

and it's nice to offer advice when we can or when there are secular issues involved... but this is really a purely islamic issue, i don't think it's our place to get involved in this particular discussion... and our advice, such as it would be, won't really be helpful to this person.

let's just wish for him and his family the best outcome

que Dios te bendiga

 

[جوري]

This isn't a purely Islamic issue.. the bible is imbued with characters who are polygamists.. Jesus wasn't on earth long enough to take a wife, not was he rich enough to provide for marriage.

Judaism made it against state law to take more than one wife when the state of Israel was established.. I didn't make that up, you may visit the questions about Judaism answered by a Jew, and since the old testament is attached right there to the new with the same characters, I don't see why it is any different for christians.. celibacy, nunhood, priesthood is but an invention of the catholic church, not an invention of Jesus!


cheers!

 

[tigersabre]

thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my questions brother tigersabre, i do appreciate it.

these 2 seem, to a new Muslim to be in conflict with each other:





first we pick and choose which laws we are going to follow and NOW we choose which Sunnah we will bother with... :uhwhat
do you really have Alims telling to ignore Sunnah? ffended:

will you tell me at which Masjid your friend is Imam at?

also, i spent some time as a trustee on health and welfare programs, it should be easy to insure your children by any wife, however, trying to get another "significant other" insured may not be so easy, especially as you are already married. adverse selection would come into play and most trustees would have to deny her coverage. any thought?

Absolutely not. I'm simply saying that from the pre-conditions (shuroot) and pillars (arkaan) of an Islamic marriage contract, the practice of all the sunan of the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim are not among them. For someone to stipulate such would need an evidence.

Secondly, I have not said that I do not practice them - I have simply said I do not wish to enumerate my practices for fear of showing off. It is enough that Allah subhaana wa ta'aala knows what I do I left one statement regarding my practices, saying that if you wish to know what I practice and how I practice it regarding those specific issues, simply look at the opinions on islamqa for those specific questions, and you'll find out how I practice those issues (I don't follow everything outlined in islamqa, but for those questions, I do)

Finally, Grace Seeker has basically outlined everything in detail (thanks!), so I really need not go into further detail on the issue of insurance.

The imam of that masjid is visiting us in February to give a class on the life of the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim. When he visits, I'll ask him if he minds that I give out his information. I'm sure he doesn't, but since it is his personal life, I'm hesitant to share who he is without his consent.

 

[zaria]

What that means is that the second wife will be in the same position to the husband as if they were not married at all. She is not likely to be covered under any sort of insurance, not are her children, even though by him. Should he become ill, the first wife could keep the second one from even visiting him in the hospital. But, as far as whether it is illegal for them to have an Islamic wedding, no it is not. It just will not be recognized. The illustration of living together is a good example. Those are also not officially or legally recognized relationships, even if they are many years in duration.

I don't know what the status would be if they were to venture to some country where Islamic marriages are recognized and then return to the USA to live.

In most multiple unions, they have wills and testments that can be divided equally amongst the wives in the time of the husbands demise. If the child is not legally the father, he wouldn't be able to get health insurance for them any way. With the wife he could get insurance he just wouldn't be through his job. As far as life insurance for the wife and children (his or not his) he can get it. They Islamic wedding would be recognize Islamically which is beautiful in itself. They don't have to live together. If he can have two wives, he must be able to provide justly. Today in Society living together will make it complicated. Monogomy was PUT on us by the states not giving to us as a choice which Allah has giving to our men. it's in a man nature to have a desire for more than one women and it's his choice to act upon his right giving by Allah (swt). I am not at all in a multi union but I would rather have that than to have my husband sleeping around on me being sneaky and all. And maybe a good benefit for us muslimahs, Sometimes we want our "alone time", we can benefit fromlearning the deen from the co wife or they could benefit from you. It is a wondeful thing if you PUT Allah (swt) first in your marriage. But nothing hurts more than a man not being honest about what he wants. So if you can be honest and give the first wife a choice to want to be in that situation and not force it on her, you will be good and first and formost (trust in Allah) TawakulAllah.

 

[Khayal]

About following Sunnahs of Prophet Muhammad SAW... how can one justify 'picking and choosing' Sunnahs of beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW to follow? I am not saying that you are doing this, merely asking if you follow other Sunnahs Of Prophet Muhammad SAW as well; if you have a habit of choosing to follow Sunnah that are favorable to you and shunning others, then I am pretty sure that that is not permissible. In this case, if you do not follow other Sunnah, and just pick this one because you like it, then your intention is not pure and Islamically you cannot do it. Another thing that should help you, is that if you choose to follow all of the Sunnah, then you will not fall into the category of picking and choosing, and naturally you will be a better Muslim and live a better life. Your intention should be to follow the Sunnah because it is a Sunnah, not just because you favor it; and to do this, you have to be willing to follow every other Sunnah.
Another of your points was about making mistakes. You stated that if we make a mistake, as long as we repent, we are cool. There are those that repent and just keep doing what they were doing before, and so do not have a pure intention to stop. Of course, I am not saying that you are one of them or anything, I don't even know if I am talking about you; I am just making a general statement. But when we repent, we should fully intend to abstain from committing such acts. And if the intention is pure and from the heart, Allah helps to avoid the mistake, so it cannot possibly happen again, and so you can't repent for things that have not happened. That is the beauty of Islam.

That's all. I am not going to argue with you further, I will just finish with my dua, May Allah SWT give you Hidayat, and may Allah have mercy on your present wife, InshaAllah.

Salaam alaykum Anonymous Gender,

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

Fourthly, one cannot call himself a "good, practicing Muslim." That is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to judge. What I can say is that I try my best, and I ask Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to guide me to what pleases Him and to keep me away from what does not please Him.

Fifthly, one can never say, "I treat my wife just like the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim treated his" because he has already said that he treats his wives the best, so none of us will ever achieve that.

As to your specific questions, I follow and have implemented the opinions on islamqa to the best of my abilities.