How do Atheists view the Prophets (messengers of Allah)?

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Greetings,
i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.

It's more the 'showing himself' part, I think. Any good evidence of his existence would change the situation.

Peace
 
Greetings,


It's more the 'showing himself' part, I think. Any good evidence of his existence would change the situation.

Peace

gibson i have respect for you :).

But honestly, is it that necessary that God must show himself?

If God prefers it this way, then shouldnt we weigh out the message he sends, look at it and think "does this sound like truth?!"
 
Greetings,
gibson i have respect for you :).

Why thank you. I have respect for you too. :)

But honestly, is it that necessary that God must show himself?

I don't believe in the existence of any object that does not show itself in some way. Exceptions would be some scientific conceptual objects (like electrons) that don't behave in the way regular objects do. We still have a lot to learn about them, but I still believe in them provisionally because they seem to me to be the best explanations currently available.

Given what you've said, what would stop you from believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Is it necessary that he shows himself too?

If God prefers it this way, then shouldnt we weigh out the message he sends, look at it and think "does this sound like truth?!"

I'm sure that's exactly the way that many people come to Islam. Not for me, though. I've read nothing in the Qur'an that couldn't have been writen by a human.

Btw, what do you think about Al Burak?

Peace
 
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I'm sure that's exactly the way that many people come to Islam. Not for me, though. I've read nothing in the Qur'an that couldn't have been writen by a human.

i see, perhaps the situation and the way ones life has developed, state of mind and many other factors also matter.
I honestly believe Allaah guides whom he wills, but so many times i feel sad when i see people striving in this life, they seem so honest and hardworking but i have faith that Allaah knows best.


Btw, what do you think about Al Burak?

Peace

The beast sent to our prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam who helped him travel to jerusalem and then ascend the heavens, i think he existed and still does exist as he will be used again in the day of judgement :).
 
i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.


No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.


Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.


Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.

Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.
 
Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.

if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!


i dont like to follow falsehood, if i ever thought the Quran was controdictory i wouldnt believe in it (audhubillaah) but its not, its a lack of understanding on your part
 
if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!


i dont like to follow falsehood, if i ever thought the Quran was controdictory i wouldnt believe in it (audhubillaah) but its not, its a lack of understanding on your part

Well I believe Islamic philosophy is contradictory, but thats besides the point.
The concept of God himself is contradictory.

Epicurus puts it best

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "
 
Greetings,
Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.

There's also that, true. As Hume said, "Epicurus' old questions are yet unanswered."

if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!

Individuals should be entitled to think for themselves. I think that is one of the most important reasons why I could never be a Muslim. Remember also that, from an atheist point of view, the scholars are there to present, explain and to give an appearance of rationality to a world view that atheists believe is mistaken.

Peace
 
i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.
Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, there’s no verifiable evidence that any god(s) has ever spoken to anyone. If you believe god has spoken to you, that’s fine (I’m taking a step backward and watching where your hands are). Science really only embraces viable theories; otherwise, it would have to consider every claim no matter how outlandish. If you need one example, does the science of psychiatry need to step back and not make any conclusions about the clichéd lunatic who believes he is Napoleon, and that Kaiser Wilhelm is stealing his socks on a nightly basis? Do we have to sit back and wait until "tools are developed to assess the possibility that Napoleon and Kaiser Wilhelm reincarnate" (and the Kaiser has a sock fetish) or do we conclude the patient is delusional?

It's the curious lack of evidence that is what makes the various claims of god(s) all so suspicious. It's the repetitive nature of other, earlier messiah myths that gives one pause to ask, "Is this an original event? If so, why so many similarities to earlier "events" we know are prosaic mythology?" Why the odd timing of the "resurrection" to be at a time of the year already well known and saturated with previous religious beliefs of rebirth, so much so that to this day the name of "Easter" is a descendant of the word "Oestre" (Ishtar)? Why bring into the world your primary messiah in a land rife with messiahs-of-the-week?

No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.
Born again Christians are certainly not a new or even recent phenomenon.

Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.
The arguments of creationists are not driven by evidence that can be observed in the natural world. Special creation, Shaytans, Jinn, etc., or other supernatural intervention is not subjectable to meaningful tests, which require predicting plausible results and then checking these results through observation and experimentation. Indeed, claims of "special creation" and other supernatural interventions reverse the scientific process. The explanation is seen as unalterable, and evidence is sought only to support a particular conclusion by whatever means possible.

Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.
It’s a bit disingenuous to claim that allah has sent any message of truth.

Certainly every religion, believing itself the arbiter of what is "god-given" takes on the mantle of this authority. While I will say for the record that religious belief served a purpose in human history, for the most part there are better models that serve human requirements for these things, and they do it in terms of the common good as opposed to an external authority commanding us on pain or threat of punishment to do the things that are morally justified. As time goes on, these wholly secular paradigms will grow larger and more potent, and religion will fade (and yes, there will be many false starts and huge errors).
 
A reveiw found on Amazon:
The Last Kaiser.By Mo Bushell (Aldbourne, Wiltshire United Kingdom) - See all my reviews
The Last Kaiser is one of the most badly written and poorly edited historical biographies I have ever read .............(the only facts I am able to remember is that the Kaiser owned 6 shirts, 12 pairs of socks and over 300 uniforms ...

Verily! He hath returned! The EMPEROR NAPOLEON HIMSELF! I (as a Decendent-member of his ever loyal Imperial Gaurd), will rise against Kaiser Wilheim and end his sock stealing antics from our much loved emperor and free his excellency from the "Psychiatric " hospital where the Evil British detain him.

..................There you see. A "scholar" of such a subject can find whatever evidence they like in scripture. Even if this scripture is a biography of Kaiser Willy.
 
Don't almost all Muslims accept the authenticity of the Bukhari hadith?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.227

Though I notice that in this description the creature does not have the face of a woman. In any case, the Buraq appears in a famous Muslim art piece and I've heard of it elsewhere, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, Al-buraq is real, but i dont get the rest of your comment could you plz explain???

P.S
Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah and that they had no worldy motivations( their lives show this). and why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?

But is more humble than you, The Messenger of Allah could have lived the most extravegant worldly live both before and after his Mission, however, he chose to stay with the weak and poor, slaves etc.

Plz, he(saw) was REAL !

ow, and jeus never claimed to be God,NEVER ever..
 
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alburaq.jpg


This is what it looks like, (or is supposed to look like)
 
This is what it looks like, (or is supposed to look like)[/QUOTE]


This, has no Quranic support, it is WRONG, we cannot even draw pictures anyway, this looks like persian to me..
 
Might be persian.

Hadith of the Night Journey and Ascension
Al-Isra' wa Mi'raj

It is narrated on the authority of Anas ibn Malik that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

I was brought al-buraq who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to Bait-al Maqdis (Jerusalem). I then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the area of the Mosque and prayed two rak'at in it. I then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk. I chose the milk, and Gabriel said, 'You have chosen al-fitra, the natural way'.
He then ascended with me into the lower heavens and requested that they be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Adam. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Then we ascended to the second heaven and Gabriel requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and when I entered Jesus and John welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the third heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Joseph, who was given a great portion of beauty. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the fourth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Enoch. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the fifth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Aaron. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the sixth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Moses. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the seventh heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Abraham who was leaning against the bayt al-ma`mur into which enter seventy thousand angels each day never to return.
Then I was brought to the sidrat al-muntaha, the Lote Tree of the Furthest Limit, whose leaves were like the ears of an elephant and whose fruits at first appeared insignificant. But when Allah spread His command over them they transformed to the point where no one in creation could describe their beauty. Then Allah revealed what He revealed to me. He then made obligatory for me fifty prayers every night and day.
I began my descent until I reached Moses who asked me: 'What has your Lord made obligatory for your community?' I said to him, 'Fifty prayers.' He then said, 'Return to your Lord and ask Him to reduce them, your community will not be able to bear that. I know the people of Israel from long experience and I have tested them.' I then returned to my Lord and said, 'O Lord, make things lighter for my people'. He then reduced it by five prayers for me. I then returned to Moses and he said to me, 'Your community will not be able to stand that. So return and ask Him to make things lighter.' I kept going between my Lord and Moses until Allah said, 'O Muhammad, there are five prayers every night and day. Each prayer is equal to ten prayers making them equal to fifty prayers. Whoever intends a good deed and does not do it, there will be written for him a single good deed. If he does it then there will be written for him ten good deeds. Whoever intends an evil deed and does not do it then there is nothing written against him. If he does it then there is written for him one evil deed.'
I then descended until I reached Moses and informed him of what had occurred. He then said to me, 'Return to your Lord and ask Him to make things lighter.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace then said, 'I have returned to my Lord until I felt ashamed before Him."

from the hadith collection of Sahih Muslim
 
Don't almost all Muslims accept the authenticity of the Bukhari hadith?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.227

Though I notice that in this description the creature does not have the face of a woman. In any case, the Buraq appears in a famous Muslim art piece and I've heard of it elsewhere, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Not me, I don't believe that any hadith book is completley authentic. Its a man-made work and therefore it has innaccuracies. But that is a whole 'nother discussion that I rather not bring into this thread. Unless there are other atheist members who would like to give their input to my original question or we can stay on topic to this thread, I think this thread should be closed.

Peace
:w:
 
"I was brought al-buraq who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to Bait-al Maqdis (Jerusalem)."

Yup, most muslims believe in this.
As for the buraq having a womans face, this is the first time I've ever heard that. And like Dawud said, that painting shouldn't have been drawn in the first place, and even if it was drawn in relation to the text of the hadeeth, a womans face isn't mentioned anywhere in it.
 
The womans face is because the Al Baraq was a mythical Middle easten beast , long before Islam. So when Mohammed said he had ridden one, it wasnt neccessery to do the full description. The people knew what it looked like from their legends, a horse with a face.

But yeah, the Buraq is a distraction, so we ought to get back on thread.
 
Yes, Al-buraq is real, but i dont get the rest of your comment could you plz explain???

P.S
Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah and that they had no worldy motivations( their lives show this). and why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?

But is more humble than you, The Messenger of Allah could have lived the most extravegant worldly live both before and after his Mission, however, he chose to stay with the weak and poor, slaves etc.

Plz, he(saw) was REAL !

ow, and jeus never claimed to be God,NEVER ever..

You are using a book who's info cannot be verified by any other sources (actually it conflicts with other sources) to cite history from it to prove your point.

Anyone else see a problem with this arguement?
 
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