Islam and Democracy

[wilberhum]

maybe he referred to Muslim majority countries?if not perfectly Islamic at least nations with most laws based on the Islamic tenets.

wanted to post it.It may help.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/blewis.htm

Interesting that you only addressed the least important point. :-\

 

[Bittersteel]

hehe,maybe because more or less I agree with most of your points except one or two.

 

[Amadeus85]

quote:But still some american or european politicians (vide Bush,Condie Rice or Gordon brown) say that they want to give democracy to muslim world.

And do you believe condi and her crew are actually serious?

Seriously? No.

 

[aamirsaab]

Democracy, sharia, dictatorships and communism = all forms of rule.

None is better than another since the effectiveness of those forms of law depend on how, when, why and to what extent they are carried out, in addition to the society's thoughts on it. As it stands, democracy is working well in the West - would it neccesarily work in countries that currently use communism, dictatorship or sharia law? Not completely. Similarly, Sharia law, dictatorship and communism will probably not work fully in the Western countries such as UK/US/France etc (unless of course there is a major attitude change in society!)

 

[Cognescenti]

Democracy, sharia, dictatorships and communism = all forms of rule.

None is better than another since the effectiveness of those forms of law depend on how, when, why and to what extent they are carried out, in addition to the society's thoughts on it. As it stands, democracy is working well in the West - would it neccesarily work in countries that currently use communism, dictatorship or sharia law? Not completely. Similarly, Sharia law, dictatorship and communism will probably not work in the Wester countries such as UK/US/France etc (unless of course there is a major attitude change in society!)

I disagree. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Democracy is simply a form of government. The laws under which citizens in that democracy live can be determined in any number of ways.

Sharia is sort of a hybrid..a system of immutable laws with instruction on how to govern

Communism is neither. It is a model for an economic system and it is, at is core, silent on law or form of government. Of course, when you start taking things away from people that used to belong to them, you are going to need some oppressive laws and a dictatorial form of government to keep the thing going.

Also, I disagree with you that none is better than the other. Ask the Russians or the Cubans or the Chinese about their sordid little experiments with Communism. Also, one might compare North korea to South Korea (althogh the chief difference there is capitalsm) As for Shariah, I have no problem with the moral teachings which mirror the Ten Commandments and the Rabbi's Golden Rule to a large degree, but there is this nagging question of the discrepancy in standard of living between Muslim states and the Western democracies. Look at the recovery from absolute ruin after WWII. Saudi Arabia and the UAE and Brunei are doing OK economically. I think we all know what they have in common.

 

[aamirsaab]

I disagree. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Democracy is simply a form of government. The laws under which citizens in that democracy live can be determined in any number of ways.

Sharia is sort of a hybrid..a system of immutable laws with instruction on how to govern

Communism is neither. It is a model for an economic system and it is, at is core, silent on law or form of government. Of course, when you start taking things away from people that used to belong to them, you are going to need some oppressive laws and a dictatorial form of government to keep the thing going.

Thanks for the correction.

Also, I disagree with you that none is better than the other. Ask the Russians or the Cubans or the Chinese about their sordid little experiments with Communism. Also, one might compare North korea to South Korea (althogh the chief difference there is capitalsm)

I meant in the sense that just because it works in one country it doesn't mean it will work in another.

...but there is this nagging question of the discrepancy in standard of living between Muslim states and the Western democracies. Look at the recovery from absolute ruin after WWII. Saudi Arabia and the UAE and Brunei are doing OK economically. I think we all know what they have in common.

True but is this neccesarily because of the type of goverment itself or is it more to do with how that government is acting. Don't forget that a dictatorship doesn't always equate to oppression.

 

[Cognescenti]

True but is this neccesarily because of the type of goverment itself or is it more to do with how that government is acting. Don't forget that a dictatorship doesn't always equate to oppression.

What you say is true, of course. I can't prove it is due solely to type of government, but there are ineffectual leaders in the West, too. It doesn't seem to come out the same way

According to the strong majority on this forum, George Bush is the "dumbest" or "worst" (take your pick) President in US history, yet we are in the 7th year of economic expansion. Odd, isn't it?

As for benevolent dictatorship...that is not a bad system if you can find it...the problem is getting rid of the guy if you make a mistake.

 

[north_malaysian]

As far as I know, minorities don't have their own courts, at least not in any country I know of.

In Malaysia, the non-Muslim natives of Borneo have their own Native Courts.

 

[north_malaysian]

But when muslims get true democracy they will establish religious state, most probably hostile to western interests.

Of course, because for most of Muslims, the Western are hostile towards Muslims. The more Western propagandas attacking Islam, the more convincing to the Muslims that Western want to end Islam. That why they have to protect Islam.

Imagine, if the Western stop attacking Islam.

 

[wilberhum]

Of course, because for most of Muslims, the Western are hostile towards Muslims. The more Western propagandas attacking Islam, the more convincing to the Muslims that Western want to end Islam. That why they have to protect Islam.

Imagine, if the Western stop attacking Islam.

Imagine, if Islam stop attacking the West.

 

[Belief_is_Power]

^^^^ Ahhhhh more anti-muslim claptrap from wilberhum, sometimes I wonder if this guy is just here to hassle us muslims.

 

[wilberhum]

^^^^ Ahhhhh more anti-muslim claptrap from wilberhum, sometimes I wonder if this guy is just here to hassle us muslims.

Mind giving an example?

Or do you just like making negative statements about others to fill you ego. :raging:

Or is it just another case of some juvenile that has no concept of sarcasm? :?

 

[ricardo_sousa]

there is another thing.In a Muslim state Non-Muslims are allowed to have their own laws and courts.In modern western developed nations there is no such thing(for minorities).

there no such thing, because if it did, it would contradict the foundations of the "western societies": "all equal, despise their race, religions, origin, sex..."

so a government represents "all the people" and the laws of the country the same thing.

 

[caroline]

It never works to impose one culture's model onto another one, be it economic, political, social... But assuming democracy (as if we HAD one lol) should be foisted on which ever of the lucky nations the US happens to be "saving" at the moment is just another example of how truly stellar the US's ethnocentricity really is -- second only to it's hypocrisy.

As far as the Bhutto assassination and Al Qaeda... please. Don't you think it's the least bit convenient that we're coming up on elections, that we need an excuse to keep our dirty fingers in the Middle East, that if we end up having to occupy Pakistan (out of the kindness of our hearts of course) that we will just HAPPEN to have Iran surrounded?

Hmmm... but oh no. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Just like I was when I said the WMDs were a lie.

 

[caroline]

But then again, to even speak about hypocrisy of the US foisting democracy on an Islamic nation, you'd have to be stupid enough to believe that the US had any intention of establishing "democracy" in the first place.

 

[north_malaysian]

Imagine, if Islam stop attacking the West.

But, would the west stop attacking Islam, if Muslim stop attacking the west?

I think the West have allergies to women that covered from head to toes, to men that have four wives... :exhausted

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I think the West have allergies to women that covered from head to toes, to men that have four wives... :exhausted

Apart from the safety issues I for one have no problems with a woman being covered from head to toes. I do think though that muslim women living in the west should have the freedom to wear whatever they wanted without having to fear their husbands' and families' counter mesaures.
I don't have a real problem with polygamy. I'm sure if I want it legal, but should it become legal is should apply to both genders.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

As far as the Bhutto assassination and Al Qaeda... please. Don't you think it's the least bit convenient that we're coming up on elections, that we need an excuse to keep our dirty fingers in the Middle East, that if we end up having to occupy Pakistan (out of the kindness of our hearts of course) that we will just HAPPEN to have Iran surrounded?

are you saying the US killed Bhutto in order to able to invade Pakistan so they could surround Iran? Lol, you really are a conspiracy theorist.

 

[jd7]

I hate to sound as dumb as I am, but I will I am sure.
A list of Muslim majority countries with mostly free and open elections might be helpful in assessing how well democracy functions with Islam.

Just wondering.

 

[MTAFFI]

Imagine, if the Western stop attacking Islam.

Imagine, if Islam stop attacking the West :X