Is the word Muslim new in the Quran only?
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Woodrow
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In the current English translation of Luke 6:40, but take a look at what it says in the original Aramaic.
Those are literal translations of each word. Mushlimah does translate into "who is perfect" But the connotation of the Verse is that to be called Muslimah you have to be as the Master. Which in Luke referred to Jesus(as) and the implication of Luke is he was obedient to God(swt).
the overall meaning is "That for a person to be called Mushlimah, he must be obedient to God(swt)"
Luke 6:40 is giving a very accurate explanation as to what it means to be a Mushlimah.
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Whatsthepoint
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Ok....
What does the usage of the word muslim in the Bible mean to you, as a muslim? A proof of something? A proof of the prequranic existence of the word or a proof of something greater...?
truemuslim
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mushlam and muslim is like cambuter and computer...
Whatsthepoint
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Nope.
Muezzin
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Woodrow
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That is an understatement. I do not know a single Aramaic speaking person that understood what was said in that move.
*Hana*
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Do you actually know someone who speaks fluent Aramaic?
I don't know what was said in the movie, but I sure give him a high five for attempting to make an entire movie in, not only a foreign language, but one that is not even used today. lol
Hana
Woodrow
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It simply shows the word existed prior to the Qur'an. Also it also shows that Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic can not be defined simply by the root letters that are written. To understand the connotation of what is being written, you need to relate it to the entire passage it is contained in.
In Luke as mentioned above the word does mean perfection in a literal sense, but in the over all content of the verse, to be Muslimah you would have to be a person who submits to God(swt). so in that verse the meaning of the word is the same as todays understanding of the word Muslim.
جوري
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That is the figurative meaning of the word, not the literal.
You can extract the meaning you desire when translating it into another language, but the word is what it is..
the same as tilmeez and talmeed are the same, whether you choose to render it an, educatee, pupil, seeker of knowledge, scholar, assimilator or something even more abstract!
peace
truemuslim
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kay:Woodrow
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Whatsthepoint:
To try to understand the eccentricities of the semitic languages perhaps an example can show.
Now our English word read (using the meaning like in "going to read a book") can have several different usages depending on the suffixes etc. such as:
Read
reader
reads
reading
Now if it was written in the same manner the semitic languages use only the 3 letters of the root word would be written. so all 4 mentioned words would be written more like "red" for the above 4 words. You would not know the meaning of the word unless you knew the context in which it is used.
To try to understand the eccentricities of the semitic languages perhaps an example can show.
Now our English word read (using the meaning like in "going to read a book") can have several different usages depending on the suffixes etc. such as:
Read
reader
reads
reading
Now if it was written in the same manner the semitic languages use only the 3 letters of the root word would be written. so all 4 mentioned words would be written more like "red" for the above 4 words. You would not know the meaning of the word unless you knew the context in which it is used.
Whatsthepoint
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I get that.
The word muslim in Arabic literally means "one who submits to god",, whereas in Luke one must read the entire chapter or even the entire gospel to understand its meaning, in this case the word muslim itself does not mean "one who submits to god".
That's what I'm trying to say...
I guess I'm wrong, so:
Does the word muslim in Luke 6:40 means perfected/trained? Can it be translated otherwise?
Does the word muslim in arabic have other meaning as well? The way Woodrow demonstrated?
what's today's aramaic word for the adhearents of Islam?
The word muslim in Arabic literally means "one who submits to god",, whereas in Luke one must read the entire chapter or even the entire gospel to understand its meaning, in this case the word muslim itself does not mean "one who submits to god".
That's what I'm trying to say...
I guess I'm wrong, so:
Does the word muslim in Luke 6:40 means perfected/trained? Can it be translated otherwise?
Does the word muslim in arabic have other meaning as well? The way Woodrow demonstrated?
what's today's aramaic word for the adhearents of Islam?
Woodrow
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Aramic is essentialy a dead language today and mostly just used in religious liturgy among the Coptic Christians and Syrian Christians. There are still some small groups in Syria, Egypt and Iraq that still use it as their daily language. there may be some other hold outs. But they will be in fairly small communities.
The few Aramaic speakers I have met are Muslim. They call themselves Mushlimah. The Coptic Christians in Egypt usually speak Arabic as their daily language, they don't seem to have any problem with calling us Muslims.
However, what I found interesting is that Aramaic speaking Christians contend that the Qur'an is actually Aramaic and not Arabic. This is from an Anti-Islamic Aramaic site so I wont post the link.
Oddly they seem to view the Qur'an as being a Christian Book and that they are the true Muslims. They have no problem with using Mushlimah as meaning a person who is obedient to God(swt) It seems that in looking through the hate sites some Aramaic Christians believe they are the True Muslims. As they are the ones obedient to God(swt)
Luke 6:40
Also see this
http://dialogtube.com/being_like_the_teacher.pdf
some contend that the word Muslim is a new and can't be applied prior to the adevtn of Islam but, in fact found in Aramaic and Hebrew.. see original texts above..
"Muslim" is a "proper name",
[Q:22:78] And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Apostle may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَى وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ ﴿٧٨
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Grace Seeker
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In the current English translation of Luke 6:40, but take a look at what it says in the original Aramaic.
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Those are literal translations of each word. Mushlimah does translate into "who is perfect" But the connotation of the Verse is that to be called Muslimah you have to be as the Master. Which in Luke referred to Jesus(as) and the implication of Luke is he was obedient to God(swt).
the overall meaning is "That for a person to be called Mushlimah, he must be obedient to God(swt)"
Luke 6:40 is giving a very accurate explanation as to what it means to be a Mushlimah.
So, let's be clear. All that is being said is that these characters in our present alphabet could be rendered as a word that appears similar to the English word Muslim. Which makes sense if "Mushlimah" does indeed translate into "who is perfect", though I would prefer "who is made complete". The original Greek that it was written in before being translated into Aramaic (yes, I can easily defend that -- Luke was not a Jew, he was a Greek and he wrote for a Greek-speaking audience) reads ουκ εστιν μαθητης υπερ τον διδασκαλον κατηρτισμενος δε πας εσται ως ο διδασκαλος αυτου the key word here being "κατηρτισμενος" (kateertismenos) which is the perfect passive participle of katartizo which means "to complete, to finish, to equip".
Thus the meaning of the verse in Luke is that when the disciple has received complete (or has finished, or is equipped by) preparation from his teacher, he will be equal to his teacher but not surpassing. It is not saying that when the student is a Muslim (at least not in the modern understanding of that word).
In the ancient Greek the connotations behind complete and finishing were that this was how something was perfected. (In fact we still talk of "perfecting" a motion this way in parliamentary language.) And if later Arabic understood this to word that was chosen in the Aramaic translation of Luke to carry the connotation of submission with it as part of the perfecting or finishing process, well this is just how languages evolve over time.
I can find the word "accord" in scriptures too -- "When the day of Pentecost came, they [the disciples] were all together in one accord." (Acts 2:1) -- but that doesn't mean they were driving around in a Honda Accord. Just as the use of the term "accord" is different today from how it was in the first century, so too is the use of the term "Mushlimah". We do damage to our understanding if we try to make the present meaning fit the old context.
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Islam comes from the root word SALAMA which means Submit, Surrender, Obey, Sincerity, Peace...
Islam is a religion that teaches how to submit, surrender, obey Your Creator Sincerely (not forced to do so), and from that you will be at Peace with the Creator.
Someone who practices Islam is called a Mu-Islam...Muslim. In Arabic MU is placed in front of the word to give possession.
Islam is a religion that teaches how to submit, surrender, obey Your Creator Sincerely (not forced to do so), and from that you will be at Peace with the Creator.
Someone who practices Islam is called a Mu-Islam...Muslim. In Arabic MU is placed in front of the word to give possession.
Grace Seeker
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Etymology is an interesting thing. The Spanish word Hola meaning Hello in English sort of looks similar, but the two words have very different roots. Rather it is related to the Spanish word ola meaning wave, like a wave in an ocean. The roots of both of these words hola and ola are actually found in the word ole a Spanish interjection that many people are familiar with from bullfights and in which persons rise as in a wave to cheer the exploits of the bullfighter. Ole however is itself a corruption of the Arabic word Allah. But I don't think that this means that when a Spaniard greets someone by saying Hola! Como estas? (meaning "Hi! How are you?) that they are calling that person God. Etymology is interesting and can informative, I refer to it regularly to better understand words in ancient documents. But I think we have to be careful not to make it say more than it really does. The word Islam or Muslim today has a particular meaning that is derived from the context of how it is now used. To work backwards simply because we can trace a words roots and impose today's meaning on a previous generation's usage is not fair to either today's word nor the meaning of it understood by yesterday's audience.
For instance, the etymology of "Hello" actually comes from Old English words that meant "cease" or "stop". Hardly consonance with the application of that word today.
For instance, the etymology of "Hello" actually comes from Old English words that meant "cease" or "stop". Hardly consonance with the application of that word today.