Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

[barney]

i think it is the same God, but the christian concept of God is completely different and practically incomprehensible to me and most (?) other non-christians.

There was a writer on a christian blog who talked of the infinate patience of God. He cited the numerous times that the Chosen People of God, IE the Jews, transgressed and required God to slaughter them in bundles of either 10000 or 50117, depending on whaich particular epidemic hit them at any given time.(thats my interpretation, not his). However he always returned to them and "forgave" them. The writer noted that it was strange how God hadnt just given up on them and chosen a new people.
When my mind takes me to such things, I wonder if the Yahweh of the jews finally gave up and looked for a new chosen Tribe.

 

[YusufNoor]

Because of the computer burp, it may be the my question has been answered and I've missed it. So I would like to ask again.


From a Muslim perspective, the following sounds pretty definitive:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Given that, why have some Muslims in this thread said otherwise?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

in the past [1400 years ago], even the polythiests of Makka admitted that Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, was the god who created the world. as time goes on it appears to Muslims that "Christians" worship Jesus and rarely, IF EVER speak of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. everything is all about Jesus and it seems as if Jesus is THE God[head] (for the "Christians") to us.

we could equated the God the Father[even if you don't KNOW His Name(s)] portion of "Christianity", nearly to Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. but as i hear "Christians" here explain their religion today it seems to me that "their God" cannot exist without the help of 2 other Gods, and has lots of associates.

in Islam, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is PERFERCT and needs no help, neither can we benefit Him nor can we harm Him. that being the case, as "Christians" speak of God nowadays, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is much more powerful than the Trinity God. as MustafaMc put it so well:

the Muslim concept of Allah is best illustrated by Ayat al-Kuris 2:255 Allah! There is no god but He, the Living, the Sustainer. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and behind them, and they can grasp only that part of His knowledge He wills. Hos pedestal embraces the heavens and the earth, and it tires Him not to uphold them both. He is the High, the Formidable

i hope your question wasn't rhetorical!

 

[YusufNoor]

double post n00b...

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

in the past [1400 years ago], even the polythiests of Makka admitted that Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, was the god who created the world. as time goes on it appears to Muslims that "Christians" worship Jesus and rarely, IF EVER speak of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. everything is all about Jesus and it seems as if Jesus is THE God[head] (for the "Christians") to us.

we could equated the God the Father[even if you don't KNOW His Name(s)] portion of "Christianity", nearly to Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. but as i hear "Christians" here explain their religion today it seems to me that "their God" cannot exist without the help of 2 other Gods, and has lots of associates.

in Islam, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is PERFERCT and needs no help, neither can we benefit Him nor can we harm Him. that being the case, as "Christians" speak of God nowadays, Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala is much more powerful than the Trinity God. as MustafaMc put it so well:




i hope your question wasn't rhetorical!

No, it wasn't. You and AntiKarateKid have well said why Muslims can be told that we have the same God in the Qur'an and yet act like we have different ones.

Might I suggest that just as you and Mustafa perceive the Christian understanding of the Father to be similar to the Muslim understanding of God that the disciples were in about that same position prior to their encounter with Jesus. And while Jesus directed them to God, and even to call God Father, they also had another experience. It was that other experience that not only was the Father God and Jesus able to help them reconnect with God in a way they had never done so before, but that it was because they came to believe that being with Jesus was to experience being with God himself, in the flesh. They were not trying to explain the Trinity, they didn't even conceive of the Trinity. Rather they were trying to explain what they could not conceive of, that the same God that Jesus was teaching them to worship and call Father, was in fact present amongst them in the person of Jesus himself. Somehow they wanted to declare that and yet remain true to their faith as good Jews that there was only one God. What they realized was that the statement was true, but their expectation of what that statement meant had been too small. God was one, but he was bigger than there understanding of what one was. He did not become three, for there was only one God, but that one God could be experienced in more than one way. That one God could and did reveal himself not only as Father, but had become incarnate and walked among them, and as spirit was not just transcendent, but so imminent as to live within them. I suggest to you that this God is still the living One God whom you choose to worship, but in rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting neither multiple gods nor associates, but the fullness of God himself.

Now, snakelegs makes a good point, this is in some ways hard to explain. Having been raised with it, I suppose it is easier for me, just like it is easier to speak the language one is raised with than to learn a new langauge. But I don't think that it is incomprehensible. But, one must do a paradigm shift and quit thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind. God is wholly other than ourselves. Thus, human comparisons and saying that no person can be both this and that at the same time are irrelevant, because we are not talking about a person, we are talking about a divine, supernatural being. Those restrictions that belong to things in the natural order do not apply when speaking of one who is outside of and above nature.

 

[MustafaMc]

Might I suggest that just as you and Mustafa perceive the Christian understanding of the Father to be similar to the Muslim understanding of God that the disciples were in about that same position prior to their encounter with Jesus.

Likewise, would you not agree that the Muslim understanding of God is more similar to that of the people in the OT than the Christian understanding is? The Christian understanding of God would be alien to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David.

And while Jesus directed them to God, and even to call God Father, they also had another experience. It was that other experience that not only was the Father God and Jesus able to help them reconnect with God in a way they had never done so before, but that it was because they came to believe that being with Jesus was to experience being with God himself, in the flesh. They were not trying to explain the Trinity, they didn't even conceive of the Trinity. Rather they were trying to explain what they could not conceive of, that the same God that Jesus was teaching them to worship and call Father, was in fact present amongst them in the person of Jesus himself. Somehow they wanted to declare that and yet remain true to their faith as good Jews that there was only one God. What they realized was that the statement was true, but their expectation of what that statement meant had been too small. God was one, but he was bigger than there understanding of what one was. He did not become three, for there was only one God, but that one God could be experienced in more than one way. That one God could and did reveal himself not only as Father, but had become incarnate and walked among them, and as spirit was not just transcendent, but so imminent as to live within them.

I believe that one could come to that understanding of the disciples' experience of Jesus through much study, putting various verses of the NT together and reading between-the-lines, but I don't believe that it would be readily apparent to the layman through reading on his own Matthew to Revelations.

I suggest to you that this God is still the living One God whom you choose to worship, but in rejecting Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting neither multiple gods nor associates, but the fullness of God himself.

Yes, according to Christian theology everyone who rejects Jesus as God also rejects the "fullness" of God. However, my understanding of Allah is similar to what one would gather from reading the OT as exemplified by Ex. 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. My understanding of the Majesty of Allah is such that we humans can't bear to look upon Him in any fashion while we are mere mortals on earth. I can't imagine God being born of a woman and suffering the humiliations of becoming and being a man.

Now, snakelegs makes a good point, this is in some ways hard to explain. Having been raised with it, I suppose it is easier for me, just like it is easier to speak the language one is raised with than to learn a new langauge. But I don't think that it is incomprehensible. But, one must do a paradigm shift and quit thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind.

I don't see that the Muslim concept of the One God is in any way related to human beings, but I am sure that I missed your point here. Yes, I agree with the paradigm shift analogy. In simplistic terms, what would be required for a Muslim to accept the Christian concept of God is the rejection of the Quran as the Word of God and the rejection of Muhammad (saaws) as the last Messenger of Allah. Likewise, for a Christian to accept the Muslim concept of God, he would have to reject the Bible as the Word of God and any notion that Jesus was "God in the flesh". For this to happen, one must indeed go through a paradigm shift that I contend comes only through Divine guidance.

God is wholly other than ourselves. Thus, human comparisons and saying that no person can be both this and that at the same time are irrelevant, because we are not talking about a person, we are talking about a divine, supernatural being. Those restrictions that belong to things in the natural order do not apply when speaking of one who is outside of and above nature.

Yes, the Divine Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe is incomprehensible to my limited understanding. I chose to believe what the Quran says about the Unseen and Unseeable.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Likewise, would you not agree that the Muslim understanding of God is more similar to that of the people in the OT than the Christian understanding is? The Christian understanding of God would be alien to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David.

Very much agree. Though I don't think that this in anyway makes Christianity a perversion of the OT understanding of God, rather I find it to be perfecting of it.

I believe that one could come to that understanding of the disciples' experience of Jesus through much study, putting various verses of the NT together and reading between-the-lines, but I don't believe that it would be readily apparent to the layman through reading on his own Matthew to Revelations.

I don't know. It seems that lots of people have.

Yes, according to Christian theology everyone who rejects Jesus as God also rejects the "fullness" of God. However, my understanding of Allah is similar to what one would gather from reading the OT as exemplified by Ex. 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. My understanding of the Majesty of Allah is such that we humans can't bear to look upon Him in any fashion while we are mere mortals on earth. I can't imagine God being born of a woman and suffering the humiliations of becoming and being a man.

I accept that this is your understanding and the extent of your imagination.

I don't see that the Muslim concept of the One God is in any way related to human beings, but I am sure that I missed your point here. Yes, I agree with the paradigm shift analogy. In simplistic terms, what would be required for a Muslim to accept the Christian concept of God is the rejection of the Quran as the Word of God and the rejection of Muhammad (saaws) as the last Messenger of Allah. Likewise, for a Christian to accept the Muslim concept of God, he would have to reject the Bible as the Word of God and any notion that Jesus was "God in the flesh". For this to happen, one must indeed go through a paradigm shift that I contend comes only through Divine guidance.

What I mean by the Muslim concept of the One God being one of "thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind" are some of the arguments against Jesus being God. I continue to read objections to the idea that the infinite can reside in the finite. That if Jesus died then God must have died. If Jesus is God then why would he bother to pray or teach the disciples to pray to the Father? Where was God while Jesus was on earth? I believe that these are specious arguments, at first glance having the ring of truth to them, but based on an entirely false premise. The ring of truth is that in our normal world we expect one object to occupy one physical space at any one given point in time. You and I as human beings are limited in the manner in which we can occupy both time and space to be one place at one time. But I see no such limitation on God. To suggest that the God whom we both admit it eternal and omniprescent can't or wouldn't do something because it would be outside of our human experience is to limit God to that which is part of human experience, and that is what I see Muslim doing when they object to the Christian understsanding of God. The very idea of Christianity is that God is one but that his being is uniquely different than ours existin not in one person as our being does, but as three distinct but intewoven persons, much as the individual strands of a rope are interwoven to create the whole. But when Muslims call this shirk and say that we are ascribing partners or associates to God, it is clear that they simply have yet to understand the very nature of the God that we are talking about.

Somehow Muslims look at each of the strands of the rope as if it stands alone as a rope on its own. Nothing could be farther from the truth with regard to the Christian understanding of the nature of God. We may focus on the different strands one at a time, and some people might use sloppy language referring to the Father as if that was all that one had to say about God, thus leading Muslims to think that their view of God and our view of the Father are on par with each other. They are not. For the Christian view of the Father without the Son is just as incomplete as the Christian view of Jesus apart from the Father and the Spirit. Yet because of their interwovenness, one can never truly be speaking of the Father, the Son or the Spirit without speaking of all three at the same time even if only one is named.

There is just one God, no more, no less. But to say that God is only the Father is in fact to make him less than his full self, because God is by his very nature bigger than either you or I. We do not ascribe partners to him, for they are not partners unless we think of them as partners in a waltz. And then once you remove one partner, the waltz ceases to be a dance and becomes just an indiividual human going through some steps, but it takes the partners interacting with each other to make it into a waltz. Likewise to think of God as just the Father or just the Son or just the Spirit is to limit him.

From a purely human perspective there appears to be two people involved in our waltz, or two people involved in a marriage. But those who have been part of these experiences know that the partnership one experiences as a member of a dance or a marriage creates something brand new, its own unique being. Somehow though there are two people there is just one being. In the case of a dance, it might be one person supporting with feet firmly planted on the ground and the other person lifted up high in the air, but they are still just one. In the case of a marriage it might be one person at work earning a living and another person at home raising children, but together they are still just one being. Attack the wife and the husband experiences being attacked as well. Give praise to the husband and the wife is encouraged by it as well. What others do to one they do to both.

Now those outside of that relationship may not get how that works like that, they may say to the husband, I never said a word against you; what I said was about your wife, not you. That will not change how it is received by the husband. And the fact that others find the nature of this relationship incomprehensible does not make it any the less true. In treating the husband and the wife as individuals they are treating them as human beings, but because they are married they are more than human beings, they are a couple, and in reality a couple is something altogether different than just two human beings associated with each other. Likewise the Christian understanding of God is something altogether different than just God the Father associated with Jesus and the Spirit. And to miss that is to actually make God less than he is, to treat him as nothing more than an individual like two separate human beings are treated in a marriage. It shows a lack of understanding of the full nature of the relationsip as it really exists.

Yes, the Divine Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the universe is incomprehensible to my limited understanding. I chose to believe what the Quran says about the Unseen and Unseeable.

So you have chosen. As long as you find it to be more authoritative than the Bible we are going to just have to continue to agree to disagree about some of these things.

 

[MustafaMc]

What I mean by the Muslim concept of the One God being one of "thinking of God as just some sort of supped up version of humankind" are some of the arguments against Jesus being God....

GraceSeeker, this entire post was the best explanation of the Christian concept of God that I have ever seen. Although we disagree, I believe that at the very least we understand each other within the limitations of looking at the other's beliefs through our own "lenses" of understanding.

To suggest that the God whom we both admit it eternal and omniprescent can't or wouldn't do something because it would be outside of our human experience is to limit God to that which is part of human experience, and that is what I see Muslim doing when they object to the Christian understsanding of God.

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

But when Muslims call this shirk and say that we are ascribing partners or associates to God, it is clear that they simply have yet to understand the very nature of the God that we are talking about.

Perhaps this does show a lack of understanding; however, if Jesus is in fact only a human being and not God incarnate, then yes indeed it is shirk to say that Jesus is the Son of God.

...some people might use sloppy language referring to the Father as if that was all that one had to say about God, thus leading Muslims to think that their view of God and our view of the Father are on par with each other. They are not.

Yes, this is a good point, thus my usual hesitation to use the term "Father" because by default it implies offspring which we Muslims reject. So in this sense it is obvious that we don't worship the same God because Christians include Jesus in their concept of God while Muslims exclude him.

For the Christian view of the Father without the Son is just as incomplete as the Christian view of Jesus apart from the Father and the Spirit. Yet because of their interwovenness, one can never truly be speaking of the Father, the Son or the Spirit without speaking of all three at the same time even if only one is named. ... Likewise the Christian understanding of God is something altogether different than just God the Father associated with Jesus and the Spirit. And to miss that is to actually make God less than he is, to treat him as nothing more than an individual like two separate human beings are treated in a marriage. It shows a lack of understanding of the full nature of the relationsip as it really exists.

By our rejection of Jesus as God incarnate, Christians see Muslims as rejecting the totality of God's nature. It just so happens that this rejection of the Triune nature of God also means a rejection of the "free gift of salvation" through believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their sins.

By Christians equating Jesus with God, we Muslims see Christians as ascribing partners with Allah as made crystal clear in the Quran. It just so happens that this shirk is also the unforgivable sin according to Islamic theology.

Again, it all boils down to a matter of faith and what we chose to believe is True.

Peace.eace:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

Really? So, in that sense Allah is limited. I never would have guessed.

For Christians, while some of these are gross and places that we would not want to live; God is greater. I guess I shouldn't really leave anyone thinking that God exists within these places either. In saying that God is greater, one of the things that I am saying is that God exists outside of time and space. God doesn't even exist in the sanctuary of a church or the temple that Solomon built for him.

Therefore God is not impunged because of something that you or I would find despicable ourselves. When God's temple is desecrated, it isn't because God is somehow lessened, it is because the people who desecrate are showing disrespect and not honoring God. But a catepillar and a butterfly equally bring glory to God. One form is not superior to the other. And king's throne or bathroom throne neither of these is superior either, all are beneath God. When we fail to recognize that God's valuation has nothing to do with our way of valuing things, it is because we once again project man's ways of thinking and valuing on to God.

This really makes the understanding of the incarnation a pretty incredible statement. For to suggest that God would take upon himself that which is so limited is worse than to suggest that he might, in a pantheistic understanding, exist in toilets and cesspools.

Perhaps this does show a lack of understanding; however, if Jesus is in fact only a human being and not God incarnate, then yes indeed it is shirk to say that Jesus is the Son of God.

Oh, I would whole-heartedly concur. "IF" being the operative word.

Yes, this is a good point, thus my usual hesitation to use the term "Father" because by default it implies offspring which we Muslims reject. So in this sense it is obvious that we don't worship the same God because Christians include Jesus in their concept of God while Muslims exclude him.

Two thoughts here.

First, just a reminder that when Christians use the terms "Father" or "Son" we are not trying to imply offspring any more than the Muslim does. We are talking about the nature of relationship. Perhaps if we were to create this language today, we would use different langauge. Some prefer the terms "Creator", "Redeemer", and "Sustainer" to "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit". But I'm a enough of a traditionalist to stick with the biblical language.

Second, I don't know that it means that we don't worship the same God. When my son was about 4 we made a trip to Chicago, and driving north on Lakeshore Drive, with Lake Michigan stretching out before him as far as he could see, he called it "my pool". Now, you won't find "my pool" on a map of the Great Lakes, but if you talk to anyone in my family we would tell you that "my pool" and Lake Michigan are one and the same. Oh most certainly, Brian's concept of what Lake Michigan was were much different even from his sister only a year older, but even with those different lenses through which they looked at and understood the world we all understood that we were talking about the same body. And my friends up in Mackinaw City who live on the shores of that very same lake, yet it experience it completely differently at it's northernmost reaches from those of us at its southern terminous know we are all still talking about the same body of water, though we each conceive of it quite differently from the other.

By our rejection of Jesus as God incarnate, Christians see Muslims as rejecting the totality of God's nature. It just so happens that this rejection of the Triune nature of God also means a rejection of the "free gift of salvation" through believing that Jesus was the Son of God and that he died on the cross for their sins.

Well, rejecting Jesus doesn't mean that you have rejected the grace that God offers in Jesus. To tricky for this post to explain, but I still hold out hope for many who are do not themselves profess Christ.

By Christians equating Jesus with God, we Muslims see Christians as ascribing partners with Allah as made crystal clear in the Quran. It just so happens that this shirk is also the unforgivable sin according to Islamic theology.

Which is exactly why I cannot except the Qur'an as a true revelation from God. The Qur'an claims as a truth something that I know to be untrue.

Again, it all boils down to a matter of faith and what we chose to believe is True.

Yes, it does. We can try to respect each other all we want, but eventually there are some points where we just run out of wiggle room to accomodate alternatre beliefs.

Peace.eace:

I continue to wish you the same.

 

[MustafaMc]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

Can one more knowledgeable of Islam correct my post if I am in error?

 

[snakelegs]

i am not knowledgeable in islam, but what i have read is that God is above his throne (outside of his creation) although his knowledge is everywhere.
i guess this would mean that he is beyond time and space?

 

[*Hana*]

Can one more knowledgeable of Islam correct my post if I am in error?

I am not more knowledgeable, brother, but that is absolutely my understanding as well.

To Graceseeker: This has nothing to do with limitations, but has everything to do with ummmm, surroundings. Associating human attributes to God is what limits Him. For example: Why would God need to be in the bathroom, cesspools, etc? It is not necessary. If something horrible happens to me in a bathroom, like maybe a slip and fall, and I pray for help, He doesn't have to be there to hear my prayers. The idea of God being "everywhere" just doesn't make sense. Inside a cat? Hanging around the sewage? No, no, it's not necessary. He is far above all that.

Peace,
Hana

 

[MustafaMc]

i am not knowledgeable in islam, but what i have read is that God is above his throne (outside of his creation) although his knowledge is everywhere.
i guess this would mean that he is beyond time and space?

Yes, Snakelegs, this is according to my understanding as well. Allah is closer to us than our in juglar vein, but that does not mean that He courses through my body, rather He knows our innermost thoughts and intentions. I took the liberty of quoting "Fatima" from her answer to this question on another forum that may explain the Muslim understanding of Allah's Presence better than I did.


"Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Sorry for late reply, had few other things to do so it took me time to find these ayaat.

“And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then, I am indeed near. I answer the prayer of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright” {2:186}

“And indeed We have created man and We know what his own-self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him then his jugular vein.” {50:16}

“Should not He Who has created know? And he is the Most Kind and courteous (to His slaves), All-Aware (of everything). {67:14}

[2:115] And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

[57:4] He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.

Obviously one can easily understand these verses to mean, that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is near to you and to everyone equally since he is not in any location in particular. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is "everywhere" in the sense that there is no place that is without his presence. Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is close to us through His complete knowledge. What about the throne?

[32:5] He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.

[70:4] To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

[67:16] Do ye feel secure that He Who is Fi-sama (above the heaven) will not cause you to be swallowed up by the earth when it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

Muawiyah bin Al-Hakam As-Salmi said: "I had a slave-girl who used to herd sheep for me. One day I discovered that a wolf had killed one of her sheep, and I'm a man from the children of Adam, I get upset like they get upset, and I slapped her in the face. Then I went to the Prophet who impressed upon me the seriousness of my act. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, should I not set her free?' He said, 'Bring her to me.' He asked her, 'Where is Allah', She said, 'He is above the heavens.' He said, 'Who am I?' She said, 'You are the Messenger of Allah.' He said, 'Free her, for she is a believer.' (Muslim and Abu Dawud)

Now I am sure you are aware that our creator can not be bound in time and space so His presence is above every thing and We can not give a physical decription of His throne. As you said earlier that creation is been given a limited mind so all I know is through Holy Quran that Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala is above His throne which is above heavens.

Wassalam" - by Fatima at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6721

 

[Trumble]

Just to clarify one point, Muslims don't believe that Allah is omnipresent or that He exists in all places at the same time - except in His Knowledge. We definitely don't believe that Allah exists within toilets, cesspools, brothels, or other despicable places.

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

 

[*Hana*]

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

Why would you find it odd that God, the most pure, would need to be in the same place where you defecate and urinate, where raw sewage flows, etc. He is far above that and it places limitations on Him to say "He has to be there in order to do His work." Please, give Him a little more credit than that. He doesn't have to be in these places to hear. He's not deaf!! You have to stop applying human attributes to God.

What I find not only odd, but rather disgusting is the fact anyone would think God Almighty would hang out in these places.

Hana

 

[KAding]

There is nothing evil about defecating or urinating!

 

[Trumble]

Why would you find it odd that God, the most pure, would need to be in the same place where you defecate and urinate, where raw sewage flows, etc. He is far above that and it places limitations on Him to say "He has to be there in order to do His work." Please, give Him a little more credit than that. He doesn't have to be in these places to hear. He's not deaf!! You have to stop applying human attributes to God.

What I find not only odd, but rather disgusting is the fact anyone would think God Almighty would hang out in these places.

It's you that are applying human attributes to God, not me!! 'Disgust' is a purely human concept, as is 'pure' come to that. Why should God find those places any more 'disgusting' than anywhere else, or indeed in anyway different from anywhere else? They are all part of (His) creation. 'Disgust' is your problem, not God's.

 

[MustafaMc]

I too find that most odd. Surely it is "despicable places" where God would be most needed?

I can understand why some people believe that God exists within His creation. For myself, I see evidence of Allah through the beauty of nature and the complexity of life processes, but that is not to say that Allah exists within the Grand Canyon or within DNA as it is being transcribed into mRNA and then translated into proteins. What I am trying to explain is my understanding of Allah's omniscience (possessed of universal or complete knowledge) as opposed to His omnipresence (present in all places at all times). Muslims believe that Allah is established on His Throne (Arsh in Arabic) and does not reside within His creation. I believe that this passage illustrates this concept.

Quran 57:1-6 All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. To Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; it is He Who gives life and causes death; and He has power over all things. He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent, and He has the knowledge of all things. It is He Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then firmly established Himself on the throne of authority. He knows all that enters the earth and all that emerges from it, all that comes down from Heaven and all that ascends to it; and He is with you wherever you are. Allah is aware of all your actions. To Him belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and all affairs go back to Allah for decision. He causes the night to pass into the day and the day to pass into the night, and He has knowledge of the inmost secrets of your hearts.

This phrase, "He is with you wherever you are" could be interpreted on its own to mean that Allah is at all places (top of tallest mountain, bottom of lowest oceanic trench and on the fartherest star) at the same time (past, present and future), but I understand it within the context of the other ayat that He is with us in His Knowledge. Now how Allah knows all that happens and all that is even thought by billions of people until the end of time without actually "being there" is beyond my meager comprehension. Quite simply I have an infinitesimally minute knowledge of Allah (as revealed in the Quran), but He has complete knowledge of me.

...and Allah knows best. Those Muslims who are more knowledgeable than me will kindly correct my errors.

 

[*Hana*]

It's you that are applying human attributes to God, not me!! 'Disgust' is a purely human concept, as is 'pure' come to that. Why should God find those places any more 'disgusting' than anywhere else, or indeed in anyway different from anywhere else? They are all part of (His) creation. 'Disgust' is your problem, not God's.

nope, it's not, we are ordained to perform wudu to clean ourselves before prayer and yet you would have God come hang around a place impure. Even the bible says to clean yourself and yet you would have the most pure; God Almighty tromping through filth. He doesn't have to be physically in a room to hear a prayer. What part of that don't you understand? THAT is a human attribute.

You may think God has no problem with disgust and filth and you may think it's HIS problem to deal with, but when He tells me to clean myself before prayer and pray in an area that is clean, etc., then I tend to think He has a problem with filth. Even Moses and Jesus cleaned themselves before prayer. So, save your rhetoric for another, non-Abrahamic faith...it doesn't apply here.

Kading: don't be an idiot. Try to keep up!! Who said there was something wrong with defecating and uninating? NO ONE. I said it is impure, unless of course you disagree that it isn't. In which case you need to attend health class 101. Next time try reading before making a ridiculous comment.

 

[Trumble]

You may think God has no problem with disgust and filth and you may think it's HIS problem to deal with, but when He tells me to clean myself before prayer and pray in an area that is clean, etc., then I tend to think He has a problem with filth. Even Moses and Jesus cleaned themselves before prayer. So, save your rhetoric for another, non-Abrahamic faith...it doesn't apply here.

I think you might want to consider the difference between 'rhetoric' and 'argument' before issuing spurious instruction.

The origins of Biblical ritual purity (Leviticus 13-15) are clearly health related; nothing to do with what God may, or may not, find 'disgusting'. As far as cleansing before prayer goes surely the reason for that is as a mark of respect for God, not because He might be offended by your appearance. People certainly find filth disgusting and hence it is common sense that they make the effort to put themselves in a non-filthy position by washing and cleaning the mosque or room before prayer when that is possible. I assume you agree that if it was not possible, God would not be unduly perturbed.. or perhaps you are suggesting he might say to someone lost and alone in the wilds "sorry, come back when you've had a bath"?

I certainly do not think 'disgust' is God's problem to deal with.. my point is that it is absurd to think He would have a problem. If he did, a universe without either filth or disgust would have been easy enough to come up with. The suggestion He might is pure anthropomorphism.

 

[*Hana*]

I think you might want to consider the difference between 'rhetoric' and 'argument' before issuing spurious instruction.

The origins of Biblical ritual purity (Leviticus 13-15) are clearly health related; nothing to do with what God may, or may not, find 'disgusting'. As far as cleansing before prayer goes surely the reason for that is as a mark of respect for God, not because He might be offended by your appearance. People certainly find filth disgusting and hence it is common sense that they make the effort to put themselves in a non-filthy position by washing and cleaning the mosque or room before prayer when that is possible. I assume you agree that if it was not possible, God would not be unduly perturbed.. or perhaps you are suggesting he might say to someone lost and alone in the wilds "sorry, come back when you've had a bath"?

I certainly do not think 'disgust' is God's problem to deal with.. my point is that it is absurd to think He would have a problem. If he did, a universe without either filth or disgust would have been easy enough to come up with. The suggestion He might is pure anthropomorphism.

Blah, blah, blah

I said nothing about appearance. Get your facts straight before you respond. There is still a way to clean yourself without water. The topic was about God being everywhere. You want to believe He can be found in a toilet bowl that's your choice. It most certainly isn't mine. This is not something I'm going to argue about, believe what you want.

I said Rhetoric and that's exactly what I meant. You want to pray in filth, you want to be filthy, you want to believe God would hang around in filth...fill your boots. It has no effect on me whatsoever.

However, in Islam, we differ. Accept it or reject it and move on.

Tata