Debate: Quran or Bible, which is god's word?

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Greetings and peace be with you Omari;
Open debate
I believe that Holy scriptures have two roles, one is to convince the believer that the scriptures are true. The second and more important role of scriptures is to inspire people to do things.

I wonder if we should use scriptures more to try and change ourselves, or more as a tool to debate with and change other people?

In the spirit of searching for truth

Eric
 
I have personally found it in the Bible but who ma I. I know many who find peace in many different things.
 
[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ali Ibn Abi Talib and Ubay Ibn Ka’b all commented that parts of the Qur'an had been lost. Not even a generation had passed and already the Qur'an had not been preserved in it's entirety.
 
[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ali Ibn Abi Talib and Ubay Ibn Ka’b all commented that parts of the Qur'an had been lost. Not even a generation had passed and already the Qur'an had not been preserved in it's entirety.

provide sources please, also within the context if possible.
 
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THE MUSLIM PERSPECTIVE ON THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW

In the Qur’an, Allah (God) reveals that Muslims should believe in Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and all the prophets sent before him, and in all the scriptures given to those prophets. In verse 4 of Surat al-Baqara, our Lord refers to Muslims as “those who believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you . . .”
As is mentioned in the Qur’an, the Old and New Testaments, the Psalms and the pages of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) are scriptures sent down to prophets who lived in past centuries. A portion of these books has been lost, and what remains has been corrupted or altered. Nonetheless, they still contain many true and accurate statements regarding the true faith. Muslims evaluate all these statements in the light of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, and consider those to be valid that are compatible with the divine verses and the hadiths. For that reason, Muslims can make use of passages from both the Old and the New Testaments that are compatible with the Qur’an and in agreement with the Sunnah. The fundamental precondition, however, is that they should be compatible with the Qur’an as well as the hadiths.
Allah has revealed that these scriptures were guides for the societies to which they were sent. In one verse (Surah Al ‘Imran, 3-4), He reveals:
He has sent down the Book to you with truth, confirming what was there before it. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel, previously, as guidance for humanity, and He has sent down the Furqan. (Surah Al ‘Imran, 3-4)
Another verse reveals this about the Old Testament:
We sent down the Torah containing guidance and light, and the prophets who had submitted themselves gave judgment by it for the Jews—as did their scholars and their rabbis—by what they had been allowed to preserve of Allah’s Book to which they were witnesses. (Surat al-Mai’da, 44)
In examining the portents of the End Times in the Old and New Testaments, the corrupted or distorted parts of those scriptures are not considered in this book. Only those passages compatible with the Qur’an and the hadiths of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) have been used.



THE TRUE BOOK HIDDEN WITHIN THE CORRUPTED VERSION OF THE OLD TESTAMENT

Excellent and Wise Passages from the Old Testament, Seeing with the Light of Faith

The Old Testament is a holy book bestowed by Allah on Prophet Moses (pbuh). In one verse of the Qur’an, Allah reveals that He sent the Old Testament down to Earth as a “light”:
“We sent down the Torah containing guidance and light, and the prophets who had submitted themselves gave judgment by it for the Jews—as did their scholars and their rabbis—by what they had been allowed to preserve of Allah’s Book to which they were witnesses. . . .” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 44)
In Surat al-An‘am, we are told that the scripture revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) is a “guidance and mercy”:
“Then We gave Moses the Book, complete and perfect for him who does good, elucidating everything, and a guidance and a mercy, so that hopefully they will believe in their encounter with their Lord.” (Surat al-An‘am, 154)
The Qur’an also reveals that the book bestowed on Prophet Moses (pbuh) is “a guidance” (Surat as-Sajda, 23); “a model and a mercy” (Surat al-Ahqaf, 12), that it was revealed in order to “lead them from the darkness to the light” (Surah Ibrahim, 5); that it is “a guidance and a mercy for all of them who feared their Lord” (Surat al-A’raf, 154) and that it contains “an admonition” and “makes all things clear” (Surat al-A’raf, 145).
When the Old Testament is examined alongside the verses of the Qur’an and the hadiths of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), it can be seen to contain a great many excellent and wise passages where many matters belonging to the true faith have been preserved. Fundamental articles of faith—such as the oneness of Allah, fear and love of Allah, obedience and submission to Him, gratitude and prayer to Allah, the joy and excitement of faith, Resurrection after death and Doomsday—are all contained, albeit in a scattered form, in the corrupted text of the modern Old Testament. One also encounters such moral virtues as justice, love, compassion and humility, as well as a number of provisions belonging to the true faith, such as not committing theft, avoiding adultery and cheating, not charging monetary interest, and not eating pork.

However, as the Qur’an also reveals, the text of the Old Testament was subsequently corrupted, with words added by human beings, and it lost its attribute of being the Divine Word. For that reason, the Old Testament in our possession today is a “corrupted text.” The changes in it and the impairments it has suffered, is described in the following verses of the Qur’an:
Some of the Jews distort the true meaning of words, saying, “We hear and disobey,” and “Listen without listening,” and “Ra’ina!”* twisting them with their tongues, disparaging the religion. If they had said, “We hear and we obey,” and “Listen,” and, “Undhurna!”* that would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief. Very few of them believe. (Surat an-Nisa’, 46)
Do you [Muslims] really hope they will follow you in belief when a group of them heard Allah’s Word and then, after grasping it, knowingly distorted it? (Surat al-Baqara, 75)
But because of their breaking of their covenant, We have cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort the true meaning of words and have forgotten a good portion of what they were reminded of. You will never cease to come upon some act of treachery on their part, except for a few of them. Yet pardon them, and overlook. Allah loves good-doers. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 13)
O Messenger! Do not be grieved by those who rush headlong into disbelief among those who say “We believe” with their tongues when their hearts contain no belief. And among the Jews are those who listen to lies, listening to other people who have not come to you, distorting words from their proper meanings, saying, “If you are given this, then take it. If you are not given it, then beware!” If Allah desires misguidance for someone, you cannot help him against Allah in any way. Those are the people whose hearts Allah does not want to purify. They will have disgrace in the Earth and in the Hereafter they will have a terrible punishment. They are people who listen to lies and consume ill-gotten gains. If they come to you, you can either judge between them or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot harm you in any way. But if you do judge, judge between them justly. Allah loves the just.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 41-42)
In Surah Al ‘Imran, Allah asks: “People of the Book! Why do you mix truth with falsehood and knowingly conceal the truth?” (Surah Al ‘Imran, 71) Elsewhere in the Qur’an, our Lord warns the People of Israel regarding the Old Testament:
Do not be afraid of people, be afraid of Me. And do not sell My signs for a paltry price. Those who do not judge by what Allah has sent down, such people are unbelievers. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 44)
As reported in the verses of the Qur’an, the Old Testament contains some passages compatible with the true faith, as well as significant areas of distortion.



Although belief in the Hereafter is an article of faith, most references to it have been removed; and passages rejecting it have even been added: (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; Ecclesiastes 1:4). Statements effectively slandering the prophets have been added: (Hosea 12:3; Genesis 32:28; Jeremiah 23:14; Deuteronomy 18:20, 22). And, worst of all, heretical references to our Almighty Lord—He Who is free of all imperfections and similar superstitious beliefs and accounts—have been inserted into the text (Genesis 2:2; Exodus 34:14; Genesis 5:1, Isaiah, 51:9; Psalm, 74:23; Isaiah 63:9; Jeremiah 31:9; 2 Kings 17:17-18). (Allah is beyond this.)

Even under the leadership of Prophet Moses (pbuh) there were those among the Children of Israel, to whom the Old Testament was sent down, who rebelled against him and failed to heed Allah’s commandments. This rebelliousness on the part of some Israelites is described in detail in both the Old Testament and the Qur’an. Verses in the Qur’an state:
Say: “People of the Book! Do not go to extremes in your religion, asserting other than the truth, and do not follow the whims and desires of people who were misguided previously and have misguided many others, and are far from the right way.” Those among the tribe of Israel who were unbelievers were cursed on the tongue of David and that of Jesus, son of Mary. That is because they rebelled and overstepped the limits. They would not restrain one another from any of the wrong things that they did. How evil were the things they used to do! You see many of them taking those who are unbelievers as their friends. What their lower selves have advanced for them is evil indeed, bringing Allah’s anger down upon them. They will suffer punishment timelessly, for ever. If they had believed in Allah and the Prophet and what has been sent down to him, they would not have taken them as friends. But most of them are deviators. (Surat al-Ma’ida, 77-81)
In verse 91 of Surat al-An‘am, our Lord states that the Children of Israel ignored much of the scripture sent down to Prophet Moses (pbuh):
They do not measure Allah with His true measure when they say, “Allah would not send down anything to a mere human being.” Say: “Who, then, sent down the Book which Moses brought as a light and guidance for the people?” You put it down on sheets of paper to display it while concealing much. You were taught things you did not know, neither you nor your forefathers. Say: “Allah!” Then leave them engrossed in playing their games. (Surat al-An‘am, 91)
The Old Testament describes how Prophet Moses (pbuh) believed his people would corrupt the stipulations in the Old Testament after he had gone, and felt the need to protect the book:
After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the Lord while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and Earth to testify against them. For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made. (Deuteronomy, 31:24-29)
It needs to be made immediately clear that the people in question, who rejected the true faith preached by Prophet Moses (pbuh) and thus chose the path of degeneration, were dishonest and self-interested individuals. However, in addition to these people, no doubt there also lived a great many devout Jews, rabbis and men of religion in Judaism, who genuinely believed in Allah and sought to serve our Lord.

Allah reveals the existence of these sincere, virtuous Jews as follows in the Qur’an:
Among the people of the Book there are some who believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them, and who are humble before Allah. They do not sell Allah’s signs for a paltry price. Such people will have their reward with their Lord. And Allah is swift at reckoning. (Surah Al ‘Imran, 199)
In these corrupted sections of the Old Testament, the interference and influence of satan can be felt. When these are removed, what remain are those parts left undistorted by satan. This means that once these corrupted sections have been carefully eliminated, the authentic Old Testament can be obtained. (Allah best knows the truth.)

These remaining sections bring healing to the heart, and bestow light and well-being on the soul. As revealed in verse 44 of Surat al-Ma’ida, these are the parts that constitute “guidance and light.” The passages in the Old Testament you are reading are those compatible with the verses of the Qur’an and the Sunnah of our Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), and represent the very wisest advice.

The Absence of Belief in the Hereafter in the Old Testament Indicates that the Text is Distorted

Belief in the Hereafter is an essential article of faith. There can be no faith without belief in the Hereafter. Without an Earthly environment of testing, the good and the bad all merge into one. This, in turn, is a denial of our Lord’s purpose in creating the world as transient and with imperfections, and of His infinite justice.
Divine justice—when the good are separated from the evil and everyone receives his or her just deserts—will take place in the Hereafter. The life of this world is a transitory place of testing. Nobody will be accompanied by the things of this world. Allah will manifest His justice in the Hereafter, and nobody will “be wronged by even the smallest speck” (Surat al-‘Isra, 71).
This is a provision of Allah’s justice. It is incompatible with the divine nature of Allah for anyone to engage in all kinds of immorality in this world and then not be duly rewarded in the Hereafter when the life of this world comes to an end. The faithful have an absolute belief in the Hereafter and until the final moments of their lives in this world strive in hope and fear to win Allah’s approval and protection from His chastisement.

Allah refers to believers’ faith in the Hereafter in the Qur’an:
. . . those who believe in the Unseen and establish prayer and spend from what We have provided for them; those who believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you, and are certain about the Hereafter. They are the people guided by their Lord. They are the ones who have success. (Surat al-Baqara, 3-5)
In the Qur’an, Allah also states that honest Jews also believe in the Hereafter:
They are not all the same. There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite Allah’s signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. Allah knows those who fear [and respect] Allah.” (Surah Al ‘Imran, 113-115)
References to the unbelievers being set apart from believers and to the existence of the Hereafter, when the frauds and those who truly believed in Allah will be revealed, appear in the Qur’an and also in the original forms of the Old Testament and the New Testament when they were first sent from the presence of our Lord. This fact is set out in verse 111 of Surat at-Tawba:
Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their wealth in return for the Garden. They fight in the way of Allah and they kill and are killed. It is a promise binding on Him in the Gospel, the Torah and the Qur’an and who is truer to his contract. (Surat at-Tawba, 111)
Hundreds of verses in the Qur’an contain information about the life of the Hereafter and Doomsday, while the Old Testament contains practically no passages concerning that Afterlife—a fundamental article of faith. For that reason, some Jewish sects believe that there is no Hereafter at all. Those few references to the Hereafter in the Old Testament can only be understood when considered together with the verses of the Qur’an.
Therefore, one of the main indications that the Old Testament has not been preserved in its complete and original form is the removal of belief in the Hereafter and its replacement with heretical passages to the effect the world will continue forever, but that life ends with death. (Ecclesiastes, 9:5-6; Ecclesiastes, 1:4)
Those who make such additions, who alter those passages that are inconsistent with their own worldly ambitions, are deceivers devoid of true belief. These distorted sections are most probably the result of initiatives by the atheists of the time and intended to justify their own immorality and worldly desires. Indeed, there are several references in the Old Testament to “false” prophets, who are shown to have uttered falsehoods in the name of Allah:
“Both prophet and priest are godless; even in my temple I find their wickedness," declares the Lord . . . Among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. . . . Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty says concerning the prophets: “. . . from the prophets of Jerusalem ungodliness has spread throughout the land.” This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise Me, “The Lord says: You will have peace.” And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, “No harm will come to you.” . . . I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied… “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. . . How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from Me. Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’…” “…I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord. . . . But you must not mention ‘the oracle of the Lord’ again, because every man's own word becomes his oracle. . . . You distort the words of . . . the Lord Almighty, our God.” (Jeremiah, 23:11-36)
These false religious figures mentioned in the Old Testament who lie in the name of Allah say that nothing will happen to them in return for their deeds against Him. This is one of the lies spoken by those who utter falsehoods in the name of Allah in order, in their view, to do away with belief in the Hereafter.

The Qur’an has been sent down as a scripture that rectifies all these deficiencies in the Old Testament, confirms the true statements within it, and sets out and eliminates the errors contained in the Old Testament.

Subjects that had become incomprehensible before have now been fully illuminated, and all heretical beliefs that were subsequently added have been purged away. Therefore, those parts of the Old Testament that are compatible with and confirmed by the Qur’an, are those belonging to the original, divine Old Testament—as Allah makes clear in the following verses:

When a Book does come to them from Allah, confirming what is with them—even though before that they were praying for victory over the unbelievers—yet when what they recognize does come to them, they reject it. Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers. (Surat al-Baqara, 89)

When they are told, “Believe in what Allah has sent down,” they say, “Our belief is in what was sent down to us,” and they reject anything beyond that, even though it is the truth, confirming what they have. Say, “Why then, if you are believers, did you previously kill the prophets of Allah?” (Surat al-Baqara, 91)




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THE TITLES OF ALLAH IN THE OLD TESTAMENT


The Oneness of Allah


I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…”Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God.” (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalm, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens,
Who spread out the Earth by Myself
. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other.” (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty...”(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalm, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalm, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, “In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.”... (Isaiah, 45:2)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)





The Eternal and Infiniteness of Allah


This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lordwith the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

O Lord, are You not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One… (Habakkuk 1:12)

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere Him. (Ecclesiastes, 3:14)

Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the Earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (Psalm, 90:2)

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever…(Psalm, 45:6)

For this is what the high and lofty One says—He Who lives forever, Whose name is holy...(Isaiah, 57:15)

and said: “Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His.” (Daniel, 2:20)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes, 3:11)








Allah, the Only Power and Will

The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power...(Job, 37:23)

The Lord sends poverty and wealth; He humbles and He exalts. (1 Samuel, 2:7)

and said: “Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His. He changes times and seasons; He sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. He reveals deep and hidden things; He knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with Him.” (Daniel, 2:20-22)

... the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before Me and be blameless.” (Genesis, 17:1)

May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and increase your numbers until you become a community of peoples. (Genesis, 28:3)

And God said to him, “I am God Almighty…”(Genesis, 35:11)

And may God Almighty grant you mercy before the man...(Genesis, 43:14)

But if you will look to God and plead with the Almighty. (Job, 8:5)

In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all humanity. (Job, 12:10)

To God belong wisdom and power; counsel and understanding are His. (Job, 12:13)

But remember the Lord your God, for it is He Who gives you the ability to produce wealth...(Deuteronomy, 8:18)

What He tears down cannot be rebuilt; the man He imprisons cannot be released. If He holds back the waters, there is drought; if He lets them loose, they devastate the land. To Him belong strength and victory... He reveals the deep things of darkness and brings deep shadows into the light. He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and disperses them. (Job, 12:14-16; 22-23)

O Sovereign Lord...For what God is there in heaven or on Earth Who can do the deeds and mighty works You do? (Deuteronomy, 3:24)








Allah the All-Encompassing Ruler

To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the Earth and everything in it. (Deuteronomy, 10:14)

He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the Earth. (1 Chronicles, 16:14; Psalm, 105:7)

If I go up to the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in the depths, You are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there Your hand will guide me... (Psalm, 139:8-10)

You hem me in—behind and before; You have laid your hand upon me. (Psalm, 139:5)



Allah the Free from All Imperfection

The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms... (Deuteronomy, 33:27)

Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the Earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and His understanding no one can fathom. (Isaiah, 40:28)








Faith in Allah without Polytheism
But I am the Lord your God,… You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me. (Hosea, 13:4)

O Lord…there is no God like You in heaven above or on Earth below. (1 Kings, 8:23)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. …so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

I am the Lord your God…You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the Earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them…(Exodus, 20:2-5)

This is what the Lord says, …the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last;
apart from Me there is no God
. (Isaiah, 44:6)

All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit him nothing? He and his kind will be put to shame; craftsmen are nothing but men. Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy. (Isaiah, 44:9-11)

Ignorant are those who carry about idols of wood,… there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” (Isaiah, 45:20-22)

…that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other…(Joel, 2:27)

Fear the Lord your God, serve Him only and take your oaths in His name. Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you. (Deuteronomy, 6:13-14)

…Before Me no God was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you … I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am He. When I act, who can reverse it? (Isaiah, 43:10-13)

Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak. Woe to him who says to wood, “Come to life!” Or to lifeless stone, “Wake up!” Can it give guidance? It is covered with gold and silver; there is no breath in it. (Habakkuk, 2:18-19)

See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion. (Isaiah, 41:29)

Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders You have done. The things You planned for us
no one can recount to You; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare. (Psalm, 40:5)

For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord?... O Lord God Almighty, who is like You?... The heavens are Yours, and Yours also the Earth; You founded the world and all that is in it. (Psalm, 89:6, 8, 11)

But those who trust in idols, who say to images, “You are our gods,” will be turned back in utter shame. (Isaiah, 42:17)

But if you turn away and forsake the decrees and commands I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, then I will uproot…from My land, which I have given them...(2 Chronicles, 7:19-20)

Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. Worship the Lord your God…(Exodus, 23:24-25)

If you violate the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, the Lord's anger will burn against you, and you will quickly perish from the good land He has given you. (Joshua, 23:16)

Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. (Exodus, 22:20)

you have forsaken Me and served other gods. (Judges, 10:13)






:w:
 
OLD TESTAMENT COMMANDMENTS AND PROHIBITIONS THAT ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THOSE IN THE QUR’AN


Lying Is Prohibited
"...Do not lie..." “Do not swear falsely by My name.” (Leviticus, 19:11-12)
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. (Exodus, 20:16, Deuteronomy, 5:20)
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. (Exodus, 23:7)
Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness. Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd...(Exodus, 23:1-2)
...if he finds lost property and lies about it, or if he swears falsely, or if he commits any such sin that people may do . . . he thus sins and becomes guilty... (Leviticus, 6:3-4)
The remnant…will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid. (Zephaniah, 3:13)





Theft Is Prohibited
You shall not steal. (Exodus, 20:15, Deuteronomy, 5:19)
Do not steal.” “Do not lie.” “Do not deceive one another.” (Leviticus, 19:11)
...thieves break into houses, bandits rob in the streets; but they do not realize that I remember all their evil deeds. Their sins engulf them; they are always before Me. (Hosea, 7:1-2)
Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before Me in this house, which bears My Name, and say, "We are safe"—safe to do all these detestable things? (Jeremiah, 7:9-10)
Whoever is an accomplice of a thief is an enemy of his own soul... (Proverbs, 29:24)








Drinking Alcohol Is Prohibited
... If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the Lord as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. (Numbers, 6:2-3)
Then the Lord said to Aaron, “… [you] are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.” (Leviticus, 10:8)
Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty... (Isaiah, 5:22-24)
... ordered his sons not to drink wine and this command has been kept. To this day they do not drink wine, because they obey their forefather's command. But I have spoken to you again and again, yet you have not obeyed Me. (Jeremiah, 35:14)
Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise. (Proverbs, 20:1)
Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper. Your eyes will see strange sights and your mind imagine confusing things. (Proverbs, 23:31-33)
… to old wine and new, which take away the understanding. (Hosea, 4:11)





Eating Pork Is Prohibited
And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (Leviticus, 11:7-8)
...who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat. (Isaiah, 65:4)
“...those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together," declares the Lord. (Isaiah, 66:17)








Earning Interest Is Prohibited
Do not charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else that may earn interest. (Deuteronomy, 23:19)
... If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. (Exodus, 22:25)
Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. (Leviticus, 25:36-37)
... who lends his money without usury... He who does these things will never be shaken. (Psalm, 15:5)
I and my brothers and my men are also lending the people money and grain. But let the exacting of usury stop! (Nehemiah, 5:10)
Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right... He does not lend at usury. (Ezekiel, 18:5, 8)




Distractions Such as Astrology and Fortune-Telling Are Prohibited
…Do not practice divination or sorcery. (Leviticus, 19:26)
Isn't this the cup…uses for divination? This is a wicked thing you have done. (Genesis, 44:5)
Let no one be found among you who…practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. (Deuteronomy, 18:10-12)
The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. (Deuteronomy, 18:14)
... They practiced divination and sorcery... do evil in the eyes of the Lord. (2 Kings, 17:17)
Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, "The Lord declares," though I have not spoken? 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign Lord. My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations... therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. (Ezekiel, 13:7-9, 23)
So do not listen to...your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers... (Jeremiah, 27:9)
Despite false visions concerning you and lying divinations about you... whose day has come, whose time of punishment has reached its climax. (Ezekiel, 21:29)
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells. I will destroy your carved images and your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands. I will take vengeance in anger and wrath upon the nations that have not obeyed Me. (Micah, 5:12-15)
... They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds... I will pour out on them the calamity they deserve. (Jeremiah, 14:14, 16)








Taking Bribes Is Prohibited
Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. (Deuteronomy, 16:19, Exodus, 23:8)
Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person. (Deuteronomy, 27:25)
He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes... this is the man who will dwell on the heights, His bread will be supplied, and water will not fail him. (Isaiah, 33.15:16)
For I know how many are your offenses and how great your sins. You oppress the righteous and take bribes and you deprive the poor of justice in the courts. (Amos, 5:12)
... and does not accept a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken. (Psalm, 15:5)
Woe to those who... acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. (Isaiah, 5:22-23)
Judge carefully, for with the Lord our God there is no injustice or partiality or bribery. (2 Chronicles, 19:7)
Be careful that no one entices you by riches; do not let a large bribe turn you aside. (Job, 36:18)






Cheating Is Prohibited
Do not deceive one another…(Leviticus, 19:11)
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit. (Psalm, 32:2)
A good man obtains favor from the Lord, but the Lord condemns a crafty man. (Proverbs, 12:2)








Killing Is Prohibited
You shall not murder. (Exodus, 20:13, Deuteronomy, 5:17)
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. (Exodus, 23:7)
Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears My Name, and say, "We are safe"—safe to do all these detestable things? (Jeremiah, 7:9-10)
My son, if sinners entice you, do not give in to them. If they say, "Come along with us; let's lie in wait for someone's blood, let's waylay some harmless soul.” (Proverbs, 1:10-11)





Adultery Is Prohibited
You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus, 20:14, Deuteronomy, 5:18)
They will not set their thoughts to return to their God: for the spirit of fornication is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord. (Hosea, 5:4)
For a spirit of harlotry has led them astray, and they have played the harlot, departing from their God. (Hosea, 4:12)
Do not rejoice... do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; you love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor. (Hosea, 9:1)
The land is full of adulterers... [they] follow an evil course. (Jeremiah, 23:10)
But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself. Blows and disgrace are his lot, and his shame will never be wiped away. (Proverbs, 6:32-33)
The eye of the adulterer watches for dusk; he thinks, “No eye will see me,”...they make friends with the terrors of darkness. (Job, 24:15, 17)





Homosexuality Is Prohibited
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. (Leviticus, 20:13)
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Leviticus, 18:22)





Eating Blood Is Prohibited
This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat... any blood. (Leviticus, 3:17)
And wherever you live, you must not eat the blood of...animal. (Leviticus, 7:26)
But be sure you do not eat the blood...You must not eat the blood...Do not eat it, so that it may go well with you and your children after you, because you will be doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord. (Deuteronomy, 12:23-25)
But you must not eat the blood. (Deuteronomy, 15:23)








Eating the Flesh of Dead Animals Is Prohibited
He must not eat anything found dead or torn by wild animals, and so become unclean through it. I am the Lord. The priests are to keep my requirements... (Leviticus, 22:8-9)
The priests must not eat anything, bird or animal, found dead or torn by wild animals. (Ezekiel 44:31)
Do not eat anything you find already dead... (Deuteronomy, 14:21)
Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals...will be ceremonially unclean... (Leviticus, 17:15)


:w:

 
[15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ali Ibn Abi Talib and Ubay Ibn Ka’b all commented that parts of the Qur'an had been lost. Not even a generation had passed and already the Qur'an had not been preserved in it's entirety.

Please provide the context and etc
 
Wouldnt Christians argue that the Bible Contains the word of God?
I think its pretty central that Moses was thought to have had a one to one with God and that Moses's laws were carved literally into stone tablets by the hand or finger of God himself. (Curiously taking about the same length of time one man would need on a mountain top to do the job himself armed with a chisel, allowing for several breakages, hunting food rest and relaxation, meditating and waiting for inspitation)

Jesus as his God-man incarnation is assumed to be speaking directly with his own god-authority. things like , anyone who dosnt beleive in me, kill them in front of me, and "love your brother as yourself" "hate your family if you love me" and suchlike.

i've never figured out the Christians who say "its inspired by god". If its inspired by God it's gotta be perfect , and that it certainly aint. if It's inspired by man, then why the dickens would anyone want to take a blind bit of notice about the moral attitudes of ancient man?
 
Wouldnt Christians argue that the Bible Contains the word of God?
I think its pretty central that Moses was thought to have had a one to one with God and that Moses's laws were carved literally into stone tablets by the hand or finger of God himself. (Curiously taking about the same length of time one man would need on a mountain top to do the job himself armed with a chisel, allowing for several breakages, hunting food rest and relaxation, meditating and waiting for inspitation)

Jesus as his God-man incarnation is assumed to be speaking directly with his own god-authority. things like , anyone who dosnt beleive in me, kill them in front of me, and "love your brother as yourself" "hate your family if you love me" and suchlike.

i've never figured out the Christians who say "its inspired by god". If its inspired by God it's gotta be perfect , and that it certainly aint. if It's inspired by man, then why the dickens would anyone want to take a blind bit of notice about the moral attitudes of ancient man?
Hi Barney

Ask 10 different Christians about what it means that 'the Bible is the Word of God', and you get 11 different answers. :D

I have found this website (from religious tolerance), which shows the different viewpoints.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_insp.htm

I don't think many, if any Christians see the Bible as Gods' dictated word, as Muslims do with the Qu'ran.
Clearly it was written by many different authors over several thousand years. Authors from different backgrounds in different circumstances, who wrote what God inspired them to say within the political, historical and social context of their time ...

Here is a view from Keith Ward, a British theologian, which I personally find quite interesting. (I have ordered his book 'What the Bible Really Teaches: A Challenge to Fundamentalists' to find out more ...)
There may be discrepancies and errors in the sacred writings, but those truths that God wished to see included in the Scripture, and which are important to our salvation, are placed there without error. ... The Bible is not inerrant in detail, but God has ensured that no substantial errors, which mislead us about the nature of salvation, are to be found in Scripture

As a side-note, your quotes from Jesus are badly taken out of context ... but I won't go there now ... :D

Getting ready for work now ... have a good one. :)

Peace
 
Hi Barney



As a side-note, your quotes from Jesus are badly taken out of context ... but I won't go there now ... :D

Getting ready for work now ... have a good one. :)

Peace


Have a gr8 day Glo.
I'm just reading them as anyone reading the bible sees them without the translations or metaphors!
I know Jesus probably meant, anyone who dosnt beleive in me , bring them here and their disbeleif will be killed in front of me or something, and You have to love me as if the love for your family was actually hate. I.E Love me far accross the spectrum of love more towards adoration...
That kind of thing.

But I'm just happy that AFAIK, the diciples diddnt take him up on the offer and drag hundreds of corpses up to his feet before he could explain the metaphor!
Sometimes it pays to NOT talk in parables so that they might be led astray.
 
But I'm just happy that AFAIK, the diciples diddnt take him up on the offer and drag hundreds of corpses up to his feet before he could explain the metaphor!
Sometimes it pays to NOT talk in parables so that they might be led astray.
I have no idea what AFAIK means ... do I want to know?? :?

As for misunderstanding what Jesus was trying to teach them, his disciples had a bad record for doing that - and on more than one occasion Jesus expressed some exasperation at their lack of understanding.

It makes me wonder though - if those who walked with him, who shared every day with him and were taught directly by him, managed to get it wrong at times, no wonder we, who desire to follow him some 2000 years later, mess up too. :-[

I really am getting ready for work now ... <gulps the last bits of muesli and runs :X>
 
Sometimes it pays to NOT talk in parables so that they might be led astray.
On that topic I found this passage.
It is from the gospel of John, and comes as part of the last instructions Jesus gave to his disciples before his arrest:

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."


(John 16:25-30)

<Puts on her shoes and grabs the car keys ... :phew>
 
I have no idea what AFAIK means ... do I want to know?? :?
Just worked out what AFAIK means, barney.

And there I thought it was you being rude or something ... :D
 
Just worked out what AFAIK means, barney.

And there I thought it was you being rude or something ... :D
Associated Federation of Agnostical Institutes for Koalas.

Nahh...its As Far As i Know as you guessed :)

Cheers for the reply. Y'know , in this crazy crazy world of theology, everytime someone pops up an answer it creates in me fifteen more questions. :D

Jesus is God, he's the creator.
He is getting exasperated that he cant put accross his message , though he's choosing to talk in riddles so that people cant understand "Lest they be saved".
But he wants people to be saved, loves mankind and has arrived to teach a message.
Which he cant teach effectively, and in the end gives up saying , Swarzenegger like "I'll Be Back" and next time i'll try talking clearly!"

Not dissing Jesus here, he seemed an nice guy in his better moments, but the mechanics of the theology stagger me.

Hope you got to work on time! :)
 
As for misunderstanding what Jesus was trying to teach them, his disciples had a bad record for doing that - and on more than one occasion Jesus expressed some exasperation at their lack of understanding.

It makes me wonder though - if those who walked with him, who shared every day with him and were taught directly by him, managed to get it wrong at times, no wonder we, who desire to follow him some 2000 years later, mess up too. :-[
How do you suppose that Paul "got it right"? We don't have any record that he spoke to, listened to sermons/parables of, witnessed any miracles of, or even saw Jesus while he was on earth.
 
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hmm i have an idea....

if people believe there is mistakes( VERSES in the bible.).. list em .. n for our christians members to respond... n vise versa...( because obviously it shouldnt SINCE ITS THE WORD OF GOD). that would be interesting .. dont post alot at the same time .. ONE BY ONE ! THAT WOULD BE GRT .
 
hmm i have an idea....

if people believe there is mistakes( VERSES in the bible.).. list em .. n for our christians members to respond... n vise versa...( because obviously it shouldnt SINCE ITS THE WORD OF GOD). that would be interesting .. dont post alot at the same time .. ONE BY ONE ! THAT WOULD BE GRT .

The whole refutations section is pretty much that.

What about the koran?
 
Associated Federation of Agnostical Institutes for Koalas.
:D
Cheers for the reply. Y'know , in this crazy crazy world of theology, everytime someone pops up an answer it creates in me fifteen more questions. :D
You know, it's times like this I wish Grace Seeker was around. He is so much more knowledgeable that I am.

Just a couple of thoughts with regards to your post.

Jesus is God, he's the creator.
He is getting exasperated that he cant put accross his message , though he's choosing to talk in riddles so that people cant understand "Lest they be saved".
But he wants people to be saved, loves mankind and has arrived to teach a message.
Which he cant teach effectively, and in the end gives up saying , Swarzenegger like "I'll Be Back" and next time i'll try talking clearly!"

Not dissing Jesus here, he seemed an nice guy in his better moments, but the mechanics of the theology stagger me.

  1. Jesus didn't tell us that salvation lay in 'understanding everything he said', but in 'believing in him' and in 'seeking a relationship with God through him'
  2. And yes, none of us will fully know the whole truth until his return.

Hope you got to work on time! :)
I did. :)
Actually it was a bit of a day out - going to the National Aid exhibition at the NEC. :)
 
Is there much of a point to this thread anymore?
 
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