Being an atheist.

[Trumble]

I find this statement slightly arrogant to assume that human beings 14 centuries ago were not intelligent or knowlegable enough to comprehend science.

In fairness, that's not the point being made. He is saying that the Qur'an contains references that refer to, and only make full sense when the reader is aware of, scientific phenomenon that have only been discovered/hypothesised recently (relativity, plate tectonics, the Big Bang, etc), and hence by implication 'proving' the Qur'an was of divine authorship. It's a topic that crops up fairly frequently here. You might want to check out this site, http://www.scienceinquran.com/. You will find atheistic responses, too, but as they frequently lurk on "anti-islamic" sites you will need to hunt those down yourself. Just try and keep an open mind, because you will find in such matters nobody else does!

Many of the other points you raise have been discussed frequently here, as well. Don't be afraid to dig up old topics if you have a fresh perspective on them.

 

[LennyLen]

In fairness, that's not the point being made. He is saying that the Qur'an contains references that refer to, and only make full sense when the reader is aware of, scientific phenomenon that have only been discovered/hypothesised recently (relativity, plate tectonics, the Big Bang, etc), and hence by implication 'proving' the Qur'an was of divine authorship. It's a topic that crops up fairly frequently here. You might want to check out this site, http://www.scienceinquran.com/. You will find atheistic responses, too, but as they frequently lurk on "anti-islamic" sites you will need to hunt those down yourself. Just try and keep an open mind, because you will find in such matters nobody else does!

Many of the other points you raise have been discussed frequently here, as well. Don't be afraid to dig up old topics if you have a fresh perspective on them.

How does that 'prove' divine authorship. You are making assumptions based on your belief, but belief doesnt 'prove' anything. Who is to say that these 'scientific phenomenon' has only been discovered recently ? Knowledge can be lost over time. Knowledge can also, and most likely has also been destroyed by other civilisations who's beliefs differ.

 

[Trumble]

How does that 'prove' divine authorship. You are making assumptions based on your belief, but belief doesnt 'prove' anything.

I am doing no such thing; you might want to check my profile (and indeed my frequent previous posts on this topic) to see what my beliefs actually are. I was merely pointing out that you were misinterpreting what Osman had said and pointing you in the direction of further understanding of the point he was making.

 

[Duncan Ferguson]

The Earth did have an atmosphere before life, it just wasn't breathable. Venus is smaller than earth and closer to the sun, but its atmosphere is much thicker than ours. Why wouldn't the early earth have an Atmosphere?

That wasn't what I meant, so just to clarify, things entering the Earth's atmosphere tend to burn up because of the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. This composition (not the atmosphere itself) has been brought about by life. It has changed over billions of years and is still changing today. In this I think we agree.

 

[Azy]

Seems odd that half the time people complain about atheists enjoying the material aspects of this world with reckless abandon, then the other half saying their lives must suck.

I'm technically not an atheist but for the purposes of this I might as well be. I quite enjoy my existence and I don't think it is nearly as materialistic or debauched as some people imagine.

(is that THE Duncan Ferguson? )

 

[Duncan Ferguson]

Seems odd that half the time people complain about atheists enjoying the material aspects of this world with reckless abandon, then the other half saying their lives must suck.

I'm technically not an atheist but for the purposes of this I might as well be. I quite enjoy my existence and I don't think it is nearly as materialistic or debauched as some people imagine.

(is that THE Duncan Ferguson? )

It would be funny if it was.

What is funny is how often the religious unambiguously state that without the moral input of their deity then we'd all live debauched and self-interested lives, as if debauchery and self-interest would be the natural state of affairs.

 

[Fishman]

That wasn't what I meant, so just to clarify, things entering the Earth's atmosphere tend to burn up because of the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. This composition (not the atmosphere itself) has been brought about by life. It has changed over billions of years and is still changing today. In this I think we agree.

Don't they burn because of ram pressure, not the oxygen?

 

[Duncan Ferguson]

Don't they burn because of ram pressure, not the oxygen?

Ram pressure is important in that it causes a body to heat up, or effectively to transfer energy of motion to heat energy. However, burning is defined as a reaction with oxygen, itself helped by the amount of heat energy. That's how I understand it, anyway. It's not an important point since the original premise was that meteors and meteorites don't do as much damage as they could given the absence of an atmosphere.

 

[ajazz]

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

Assalamulykum

may be you need to read my post here

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134268974-rational-argument-belief-allah-swt.html

.

 

[Tornado]

Assalamulykum

may be you need to read my post here

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134268974-rational-argument-belief-allah-swt.html

.

I wish you had read the thread. Whether there is a god doesn't concern me. If there was a god, I would be a deist meaning that such a god, I can say, may have been a prime mover but could care less about what happens. My question is rather, what evidence is there that your religion is correct, never mind whether god exists or not. So far, only one of Osman's post tried to provide that and hopefully when I get time I'll reply to that post.

 

[Skavau]

Who create the world..?

Why do you imagine that someone must have created the world?

Why do we born to the world?

Because a man and a woman decided to have sexual intercourse for the purposes of procreation. That's traditionally how we come around - although with expanding technology, I could give more unlikely scenarios.

IF there no creator...there is no sign of life....

There is no reason to believe that this must be true.

believe the in the Greatness of Allah...

Allah can Create a man without a father like Adam and Jesus...

if no God Watching us day and Night...world will turn upside down...

There is no reason to believe this is true.

who lead the sun and moon....?
why do earth orbit and move around?

is all Allah taking care of it........

You might believe that Allah is leading the sun and the moon and that Allah is controlling the earth. However, we now have satisfactory explanations which do not invoke the necessity of a supernatural designer and controller.

Tell me can you compare your meager thoughts and ideas which can’t even be seen, ideas and thought which you can not even create or generate on your own had God not given you a brain with the Wisdom that Created and Perfected the Universe?

You haven't even demonstrated that God exists much less gave all of us a brain. To answer question would be to accept your premise, which as per the definition of an Atheist - he would not.

God has created this Universe and all that is encompassed in it as you create your own ideas in your own mind.

This is of course, your belief - but you have not demonstrated it in anyway to convince anyone.

And your mind is only yours because God has bestow it upon you. And be not ungrateful by trying to use your mind to deny His Existence.

Belief is not a choice, and nor is it also vindictive by nature. I might be an Atheist, but I am not an Atheist because of a 'hatred of belief', 'arrogance', 'ungratefulness' or 'denial' or for any other rhetoric that some theists like to pretend I am, but I am an Atheist because I contest the existence of a God. I am a Soft Atheist in that I do not declare that there is no God but I simply disbelieve in the assertion that there is a God. As stated, my disbelief in the God proposition rests with skepticism and lack of evidence and/or reason under my world view to suppose a God. I cannot at all 'change' my belief because I would have to be sincerely convinced of its falsehood and/or the validity of another belief to do so.

i cannot imagine what it would be like to be an athiest!!!

If it makes you feel any better, the feeling is probably mutual.

i mean its far beyond my imagination, life must SUCK for you guys!

Not at all. Why would you imagine such?

i mean no offence to any of the athiest brothers and sisters,
but how can you not believe in GOD???

Because I see no evidence which implies or gives credence to the statement that God exists.

what would be the purpose of creation?

What sort of creation are you talking about?

how can this perfect creation of the one and only Creator be an accident?????

What makes you assume that the only possible two options that could be is either a 'creator' (such as Allah) or an accident? I for one do not believe that there is a God, but also do not agree that everything was an accident.

i mean do you guys not look around you, at nature at the planet itself and everything in it and around it and think HOW CAN THIS BE AN ACCIDENT? or a big bang or whatever it is!

No. But then that is probably because I do not contend that the Earth formed by accident. You will find that most atheists do not contend that the origins of the earth are due to chance.

i dont really understand the evolution process i know it may sound dumb but if we evolved from apes or whatever they believe we evolved from then why are the apes still apes? why do we give birth of humans by us women bearing them in our womb?

First of all, evolution has nothing to do with Atheism. Evolution is an explanation for the diversity of life that we now see here on earth. It has nothing to do with the existence of God whatsoever.

Secondly, the reason we still see apes is that we didn't actually evolve from apes - we happen to share a common ancestor with apes that we evolved from. The reason also, that we see apes around is that an entire species does not necessarily evolve collectively.

why doesnt the other apes just evolve into humans why has that stopped???

Because evolution is not a guided process. There is no planned tree where a specific species will inevitably at some point evolve into another species. Species evolve through natural selection. Animals that have beneficial mutations have a better chance of survival and a better chance of passing their genes to their offspring.

i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!!

Then, I suppose - it is a very good thing that you are not an atheist since you are implying that you are incapable of survival without the presumption of a supernatural arbiter promising eternal bliss. Fortunately, the majority of atheists are either stronger minded than you or see no reason to believe that existence is meaningless sans the existence of a God.

for me knowing that there is a God up there is enough to carry on with life... and this is just acknowledging His existance, im not even talking about His favours and attritbutes and bounties and mercy.

cos the latter makes me wanna smile and live life more just to please Him and see what He has in store for me.

That is good for you.

why promise paradise to a wrongdoer when all the righteous have been striving hard all their lives to seek paradise?

Your sentence here assumes that only Muslims are capable of being righteous human beings. This is demonstrably false as we see acts of virtue from everyone irrespective of their cultural background or religious adherence. A more potent question I would ask would be that: Is a Non-Muslim deserving of eternal torture?

if there is no hereafter then whats the use of this silly world and short life????????
if paradise and hell didnt exist it would only make sense to me if we were imortals.

Who says that there must be an objective purpose? We make and decide our own purposes in our lives. Life arguably has much more meaning in a finite existence rather than an infinite existence because your time is a blessing. Your time can run out and you have more of a motivation to make something of your existence.

accidents are never perfect, in fact the word accident is usually referred to disasters.
so how forget the major things like the universe and our own planet earth function so perfectly but lets start with ourselves... how can we as humans as in the way we are created be so perfect???

The universe does not function perfectly. Earth does not function perfectly and we are not perfect, nor we were 'created' or 'formed' perfectly. Why did you imagine otherwise? How do you even define 'perfect'? Do you define it as satisfactory to human purposes or some other criteria for perfection?

as an athiest does that not even make you think?

As it is about the 512th time I have come across that question, it only makes me respond. I don't know why I don't just make a copy of answer to these questions and put it in wordpad for future reference.

he said if there was a God then why would this God torture so many innocent children and keep them in poverty, why is there killing and bloodshed?

He's not wrong. If you proclaim God to be an omniscient and benevolent being then it is a very potent question.

and i just thought mannnnnnnnnn... why dont you do me a favour and read the message of God the Qur'an and maybe if Allah swt has mercy on you to open your eyes then you will get the answers to all your questions and you will understand.

That's not an answer. This is an avoidance of the question. Obviously the atheist convert in question did read the Qu'ran and did not find the answer to his questions in it.

how is that possible? everything is created perfect. the moon, the sun etc. everything is in place, if u look at the human body only. who gave u ur seight? ur hearing? who can make ur heart stop?

The human body is not perfect. And why must someone have to have given us our sight?

Like it is said, there are no atheists on a sinking ship.

{They recognize the favor of Allah ; then they deny it. And most of them are disbelievers.}[an-Nahl; 83]

Of course, you wouldn't know this. Years ago I got hit by a car and I had severe injuries. The question of God never came into it.

you cannot simply be an athiest out cos you lack knowledge about religions and cannot be asked to read about it and look into it therefore opt for the easy option of not believing in God whatsoever.

What exactly makes you presume that Atheism is an 'easy option'?

 

[Uthman]

IMHO, attempting to prove Allah's existence using logic is a futile exercise. There is no absolute proof of his existence, and any evidence that might point towards his existence is inconclusive. I believe in Allah and I believe that he has guided me towards the truth. Please correct me if I have said anything wrong.

 

[Skavau]

let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?

"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!???????"

There are better times to contemplate the existence of God.

If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.

No-one claims it is by pure luck.

There are scientific reasons as to why Earth is protected. There is nothing special or amazing about it because if Earth was not protected, then we would have hardly any life (if any at all). So it goes hand in hand with life.

I notice that you like to compare yourself and the material items which you perceive in life with God. That is the first mistake. Just for a mere second you have to step back and comprehend the notion that you can’t compare yourself and that which is created by the Creator.

You argument is full of logical holes. First of all, you premise that everything requires a creator is nullified by your refusal to extend this premise to God. You are simply assuming that God is beyond the rules of logic and therefore is not applicable to your own conclusions on everything else. What exactly am I suppose to find convincing about this? I have no reason to suspend my knowledge of everything to appease what you consider God. You must provide logical reasoning for it, from my perspective.

You don’t want to acknowledge the fact that you have being created by God, while you want to believe that god was created?

No, that's not his argument. He said that if the universe, world and earth ultimately must require a creator (as per your logic) then logically this must extend to the creator.

My friend we could go in circles, belief doesn’t come from the mind it comes from the heart. I could entertain a thought, and ask millions of questions which all start with how and why, but in reality those questions are more likely to deceive you than to guide you.

This makes no sense.

'Belief comes from the heart' is utterly meaningless to me. Can you please explain it?

Rejecting faith some their mentality quite extreme...! cause deny God does not exist...! God is a watcher all over the universe...the earth,planets,heaven,and Hell....!why Alien Exist...other than Human cause Creation of the earth and heaven...a Creator.!

What?

 

[Tornado]

Liar. Atheism is more fulfilling, life affirming and beautiful than any religion could ever be. Isnt the wonder and awe of this world world not insipring and uplifting enough for you.

Consider that a transition (surprisingly short) really to find out what life really means and now I have my answers. Now I would agree with that in my case.

 

[Eeman]

Thank you for your honesty Tornado. I am sorry i was a bit harsh in my response.

Anyway, consider this. There are billions of human being just like you who share this planet earth with you. You are among the "lucky" few who are not inflicted by the virus of faith. You are not predisposed to the gene that causes people to have faith in an utterly irrational and superstitious thing called god. you do not explain away the deep questions by invoking illogical concepts. You are probing, inquisitive open to ideas. This makes you an intellectually honest person. How many other people can boast of these qualities. Being an atheist, you are so special already, now how much more can you ask for. Does it matter if whether or not you find out how the Universe came into being, as long as you keep investigating and do not settle for anything less than a satisfying and reasonable answer.

Atheism may come naturally to us. We may think it is the only logical position to take, but look at the deluded world around you. People believe in the most insane and inane things with such conviction! We are not talking about one or two persons here. Pepole in the millions and billions believe in utter nonsense. This shows that faith in itself is a virus they have no control over. It eats into them and there seems to be no escape from it for them. Are you not lucky to not belong to that group, when the odds were stacked against you(assuming you were brought up in a thiestic family). You have so much going for you, why spoil it all by being pessimistic.

Take inspiration from this video. This is especially for you brother. Enjoy.

http://rapidshare.com/files/1270916..._.Why.are.we.here._Richard.Dawkins_.part1.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/1271056..._.Why.are.we.here._Richard.Dawkins_.part2.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/1271190..._.Why.are.we.here._Richard.Dawkins_.part3.rar


This is worth the download. You can find poor quality uploads in YOUTUBE. Search for it using keywords "The purpose of life".

The human race is one of the wonders of the universe. We may be unique. But why are we here? What is the purpose of life? To professor Clinton Richard Dawkins science can tell us why are we here, tell us the purpose of human existence.

There are some ten million species on Earth. But before Charles Darwin no one knew how animals came to be so varied, so complex.

For centuries people try to understand why animals was so perfectly equipped for their tasks. They assumed there was only one explanation: Natural world was designed. The designer was God. Reverend William Paley, writing half a century before Darwin, put the case with his famous watchmaker argument.

If there is no designer how did the complexity and variety of life come about?

Learn the secrets of life with Richard Dawkins.

salam (peace)

faith is not a virus but on the contrary a salvation, people that see and consider faith to be a virus especially true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.

how can people be so ungrateful and blind and head towards their own eternal doom so happily and willingly it disturbs me, then again its all Allah swt wills and only He knows best.

if science could tell us everything about what is the purpose of life and why we are here then why is it that to this day it has not been able to tell us EVERY SINGLE THING??? and i guess thats cos mankind has not progressed to that extent yet, well its quite a shame really cos if it took so many years for evolution and there are SO many things that science still cannot explain and never will unless Allah swt wills, then all athiests are really gonna be left in the dark anyhow cos i honestly doubt that the scientists will come to a stage where they will be able to explain and reason every single thing that there is in existance before as they predict that global warming takes full affect and the ice caps melt and there is nothing left of this planet. so really and truly just like you are lost now you will be forever lost unless Allah swt has mercy on your soul and guides you to true faith which i personally pray that He does for your own salvation Insha'Allah.

 

[Skavau]

faith is not a virus but on the contrary a salvation, people that see and consider faith to be a virus especially true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.

Faith is simply the belief in a specific proposition without evidence. Expanded, it could be argued that it is also the desire for that specific proposition to be true. "True faith" (whatever that is in) is simply someone who has placed their belief in something without evidence correctly. In the bigger picture however, it is difficult to conceive of something so fundamentally irrational.

true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.

Why? For what end? Are you looking for self-satisfaction in being proved 'right' by future events? Only someone who values revenge or sadism could look upon a future event with such glee and enthusiasm. It is even worse seeing as I suspect the event you are referring to is none other than the day of judgment, where millions and millions of people will be destroyed and tortured purely for disbelief or 'disobedience' towards God. Most people would look upon the prospect of such a day of carnage with fear and contempt yet you give the impression that the destruction of everything is in fact the most treasured day possible.

I do honestly wonder where you seem to think 'morality' here fits in with your world-view here.

how can people be so ungrateful and blind and head towards their own eternal doom so happily and willingly it disturbs me, then again its all Allah swt wills and only He knows best.

I'll give you a clue: We don't. I don't believe Allah exists. I don't believe Islam is true and consequently, no 'eternal torture' under my world view - exists for me. It is not about 'ungratefulness' or 'disobedience' it is about honesty and sincerity in your own convictions.

if science could tell us everything about what is the purpose of life and why we are here then why is it that to this day it has not been able to tell us EVERY SINGLE THING???

Because science is a progressive field of research that may forever be ever-changing and ever-revising. Science doesn't pretend to have the answers to the universe and existence, but with a track record focused on discovery what is actually true and basing its findings on observation and experimentation with empirical evidence - it is, and remains the most efficient field of research ever. The onset of scientific discovery revolutionised our lifestyles and our knowledge of the universe. Every single religion ever, to survive has had to adapt to newly understand information.

You may claim otherwise, but it is true.

and i guess thats cos mankind has not progressed to that extent yet, well its quite a shame really

"Not progressed to that extent yet"

What are you asking for? What extent would be satisfactory? Compare 150 years ago to now and then complain about the lack of scientific accomplishment.

cos if it took so many years for evolution and there are SO many things that science still cannot explain and never will unless Allah swt wills

This doesn't make any sense. What does the average time for speciation (I assume you're referring to) in evolution have to do with scientific discovery?

then all athiests are really gonna be left in the dark anyhow cos i honestly doubt that the scientists will come to a stage where they will be able to explain and reason every single thing that there is in existance before

Possibly, possibly not.

Either way, it neither invalidates future research nor nullifies what we already know.

 

[Eeman]

my point of the matter is, that you athiests sit there and tell us that having faith is something that is irational, and your are being nothng but sincere and honest about your own convictions fine fair enough....

how is having faith irational??? would you please pin point that out for me.

i would understand if science has reached the level where as to it explains each and every aspect of life and this world, furthermore the universe and everything in creation then you would have solid proof and sound argument to sit here and argue why this perfect creation that exists does not have a creator how can it be so perfect???
accidents are things that are referred to as disasters so HOW can all this be an accident????

furthermore as my knowledge goes big bang is a theory there is no 100% solid evidence for this to be true so being an athiest and believing in such useless deviating theories is the most irrational thing i have come across.

by my comment about the look on the disbelievers faces when the hour strikes i was not saying out of glee or anything like that, i just find it quite sad and depressing how people can argue against the existance of the Almighty Lord and sit there say they are doing it out of sincerity and honesty! assumption is the mother of all mess ups so for future reference please brother never again assume such things, cos i'll tell you exactly how wrong you are, after every prayer that i make and every dua that i read i make supplication not only for Allah swt to guide and have mercy upon our ummah but the whole of mankind, so i know it wouldnt make any difference to a person like you since you refuse to believe the whole existance of God but if ever you go through hard times, rememember that somewhere out there in this world is a young muslim sister that always prays fo you. )

 

[Skavau]

my point of the matter is, that you athiests sit there and tell us that having faith is something that is irational, and your are being nothng but sincere and honest about your own convictions fine fair enough....

Okay.

how is having faith irational??? would you please pin point that out for me.

By its very nature. It is belief without evidence.

i would understand if science has reached the level where as to it explains each and every aspect of life and this world, furthermore the universe and everything in creation then you would have solid proof and sound argument to sit here and argue why this perfect creation that exists does not have a creator how can it be so perfect???

There is no reason to believe the universe is perfect.

There is also no reason to believe the universe is a 'creation'.

You already assume that a "perfect creation" exists. There is no reason to.

accidents are things that are referred to as disasters so HOW can all this be an accident????

Now, I never said everything was an accident - did I? You appear to been informed or have stumbled across common theistic stereotypes of what atheists believe.

Natural law is not 'random' or an accident.

furthermore as my knowledge goes big bang is a theory there is no 100% solid evidence for this to be true so being an athiest and believing in such useless deviating theories is the most irrational thing i have come across.

And so much how much independent research have you done about the Big Bang Theory, precisely?

by my comment about the look on the disbelievers faces when the hour strikes i was not saying out of glee or anything like that, i just find it quite sad and depressing how people can argue against the existance of the Almighty Lord and sit there say they are doing it out of sincerity and honesty!

First of all, I don't argue against the existence of God - I argue that there is no evidence of God and defend the atheistic position. If you look, throughout this thread and other threads - almost all atheists have been on the defensive. It is Muslims on here that are making the attacks and criticisms.

Secondly, my convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty.

 

[Eeman]

i was not refering ot you debating on this forum, this is a debate but i was more refering to your ownself and what goes on inside, your heart and head, for your own salvation.

brother you say that your convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty, these are things and many more that are what the Quran teaches us, and that we believe are the words of God, so all in all every teaching of the Quran if you seriously sit there read it and ponder on its meanings you'll understand is about equality, love peace and harmony, i mean in itself is that not what every sngle soul should be struggling and striving so hard to achieve as a character in oneself? or do we read and understand and also agree with the meanings and what it is encouraging us but since it is a bit hard and takes a lot of patience and time to achieve we turn around say oh you know what this is all doo lally and some mad person came out with this and all the mad people follow it?

 

[Skavau]

i was not refering ot you debating on this forum, this is a debate but i was more refering to your ownself and what goes on inside, your heart and head, for your own salvation.

And you don't know what goes on inside my heart and head. So your assumption that I inherently argue against the existence of God is false.

brother you say that your convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty, these are things and many more that are what the Quran teaches us, and that we believe are the words of God, so all in all every teaching of the Quran if you seriously sit there read it and ponder on its meanings you'll understand is about equality, love peace and harmony, i mean in itself is that not what every sngle soul should be struggling and striving so hard to achieve as a character in oneself?

I do not see your point. I meant I was sincere and honest in that I don't believe in Islam and I don't believe in God. Those are sincere disbeliefs. All of the other virtues you just mentioned in the above paragraph can be found and understood outside of Islam.