Can God create a stone heavier than Him?

[rahul_89]

Hi pple, jst wntd 2 clear sumfing dat wen Allah sez that 'He is able to do all things' in the Quran many times - this means ALL GODLY THINGS.....just hav a little think abt it....

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

There were a few excellent points which brother Bassam in his lecture on atheism and materialism made, and among them was something from shaykh al-islam Ibn al-Qayyim (or Ibn-Taymiyya, don't remember now...). It was something like this: a thing which bears in it two contradictory things, such as something that exists and doesn't exist at the same time, isn't a thing at all, there's no such a thing, and Allah says: and Allah has power over all things.(Surah al-Maida, 17)

 

[Abdul Fattah]

No. A four sided triangle is a metaphysical impossibility. A rock is not.

There might be a different between any random rock, and a rock that an omnipotent being cannot lift. Again I fail to see my point defeated about choice. Either way you look at it, the paradox is not inhereted to omnipotence itself, but only to the nature of the question.

 

[Azy]

Steve-oooooooo

Well it's not just a practical article issue. The correlation between willpower and capabilities actually goes a lot deeper. The questions assumes that God would first want to create something that he cannot lift, and that he would then want to lift it afterall! Why would God want inconsistent things? OR why would he change his mind? When someone is omniscient, no new information is ever revealed (since you already know everything there is to know) so that means you are never promoted to reconsider. Again the same conclusion, the flaw lies not in the concept of omnipotence, but rather in the hypothesis of the question. The same goes for God being the most merciful. Why would God suddenly change? And if God is perfect and he changes, would that make him imperfect? I think the problem is you're trying to reflect human psychology into your idea of how God would think/act.

As for the sneaking around not to be noticed, if you believe God created the world and anything in it, and constantly maintains and upholds the laws of physics, then that creates a different picture. For example, as you are reading this, God Is showing his mercy to you, by enforcing the strong force and electromagnetic force that respectively keep your atoms and molecules together. And I bet he did it without you noticing it.

Firstly, let's ignore the stone question, we all know that it's just causing more problems than it solves because people get hung up on trivialities.

I think the problem is you're trying to reflect human psychology into your idea of how God would think/act.

I think I'm not the only one. We're not saying "hey let's go round to God's place and see if he wants to make a big rock, it's cool, come on." What we're doing is examining what we really mean by omnipotence and the perfection of God.
It's pretty irrelevant to the discussion what God might 'want' to do or 'usually does on a Tuesday', since desire is not a limit on capability and the sort of limits humans have on their capabilities are not applicable to something which is omnipotent and omniscient.

The point I was trying to make really is that omnipotence allows for omni-maleficence as well as omni-benevolence, otherwise you are restricting the omnipotence. You could argue that God wouldn't possibly want to do those things but then you are practically claiming omniscience for yourself (or at least direct contact), as you would need to know the mind of God, a being that knows everything.

 

[Converse02]

I can sincerely say many atheists struggle with these type of questions. Trust me, it's not like we want to go to hell.

I agree the question in the OP makes no sense.
God is supposely outside the physical universe. Weight and mass can only apply if he is within it.
The question like "Can God create a stone he cannot lift" can only be targeted to the Christian God Jesus or a Zeus-like being.

Not sure this can work against a non-physical being like Allah:
An atheist would probably use:
Can Allah create a being more powerful than himself?
Can Allah create 10 Allahs (for intellectual companionship or something), and what if the 10 Allah's fought the original Allah, and so on.

Questions like can God create a four-side triangle is to show that God must at least be limited by language and mathematical concepts.

The point is to show the concept of "all-powerful" is impossible/incoherent, therefore the concept of God is impossible/incoherent. It is like saying how can heaven be heaven if your loved ones are in hell, etc.

Atheists? Those guys? Can you spell the word FOOL, Betsy?
Atheists are deserving of what they ask for....which is a long drop in a deep hole. Atheism inherits what it is, troops. You will never hear them hit bottom.

Feel the Christian love :-\
Faust, watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Azy

What we're doing is examining what we really mean by omnipotence and the perfection of God. It's pretty irrelevant to the discussion what God might 'want' to do or 'usually does on a Tuesday', since desire is not a limit on capability.

Well I disagree. Desire might not be a limit on capabilities in theory, but in real life it does limit. To choose, is to lose; it's intrinsic to the very nature of choice so I fail to see that as a flaw of omnipotence. Why would God do something he doesn't want to do? And this is the very base argument of what we've been disagreeing on the whole time, it changes everything.

The point I was trying to make really is that omnipotence allows for omni-maleficence as well as omni-benevolence, otherwise you are restricting the omnipotence.

Well to short circuit the discussion, I could meet you halfway and say: in theory he is capable of being omni-malificence, but in real life he is not, since he chose to resign those powers.

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Was it already said that these questions do not proove anything except that they are posed incorrectly?

Added:

Here's an example to show that these questions do not imply anything about Allah, rather they say much about the one who asked. I say this because mainly atheists talk about logical fallacies, yet they're the ones who seem not to adher to logic 100%. They're maybe able to confuse someone from the mass, which only describes more an atheist in Harun Yahya's book: "Allah is knows through reason." That man openly confesses that he doesn't accept the existence, and so tries to find something against it.

OK, back to the example I wanted to mention. I ask the atheists: "Could Einstein add two small numbers, such as 1 and 1, so that the result remains unknown to him?" If you say: "Yes," then you actually said: "The sum of 1 and 1 is unknown to Einstein." If you say "No," then you actually said: "No, Einstein can't add 1+1." However, I personally like the answer of shaykh al-Islam most.

Here's something from Islam Q&A, direct link is http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/39679

The answer to the question posed by disbelievers, “Can Allaah create a rock that He cannot lift?”

​

This is a question, which is supposedly asked by missionaries. “Can Allah create a rock which He can’t lift?’ How do we respond to this?.


Praise be to Allaah.

This question – and others like it – contain a great contradiction. Many disbelievers try to use such questions in their debates with Muslims, seeking to force the respondent to say either “No He can’t” in which case they will say, “How can He be a god if He cannot create something?” or if he says, “Yes, He can,” they will say: “How can He be a god if He is unable to carry or lift this rock?”



The answer is:



This question is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities. How can He be a god if He is unable to lift their “rock,” when one of the attributes of Allaah is power? Can there be any attribute in any created thing that is greater than the attributes of its Creator?



Professor Sa’d Rustam answered this question in a sound scientific manner, which we will quote in full here. He said:



The power of Allaah – which is undoubtedly absolute and unlimited – is connected to things that are rationally possible, not things that are rationally impossible. No matter how absolute and limitless His power, it must still remain within the bounds of possibility, and it is not connected to irrationalities. This is not a limitation of it. In order to clarify this point we will give some examples:



We ask all of these bishops and theologians: Can God create another god like Him? If they say yes, we say to them: How can this created being be a god if he is created? How can he be like God when he has a beginning, whereas God exists from eternity? In fact the phrase “creating a god” is a sophism or false argument, and is a contradiction in terms, because the mere fact that something is created means that it cannot be a god. This question is like asking could God create “a god who is not a god”? it is self-evident that the answer can only be: The power of Allaah has nothing to do with that, because the idea that something can be a god and not a god is illogical and is irrational, and the power of Allaah has nothing to do with irrationalities.



Another example: We may also ask them: Can God really expel anyone from under His control? If they say yes, they have imposed a limit on the control of Allaah, and if they say no – which is correct – they have agreed with us that the power of Allaah is absolute and has nothing to do with irrationalities, because it is rationally impossible for any created being to be expelled from the control of its Creator.



A third example: One day one of the disbelievers asked me: Can your Lord create a rock that is so huge that He would be unable to move it? And he added in a sarcastic manner: If you say, yes He can, you will have stated that your Lord is unable to move the rock, and this indicates that He is not a god, but if you tell me, No, He cannot, you will have admitted that He is not able to do all things, therefore He is not a god.



I answered this disbeliever simply: Yes, it is not part of the power of Allaah that He is able to create a rock that He is unable to move, because everything that Allaah creates He is able to move, but the fact that it is impossible for the power of Allaah to be connected to the creation of this supposed rock does not indicate that He is lacking in power. Rather – on the contrary – it is indicative of His complete power, because this question of yours is like asking: Can Allaah be unable to do something that may be rationally possible? No doubt, if we say no, this does not mean that the power of Allaah is limited, rather it is an affirmation of the completeness of His power, because not being incapable means having power. If we say that Allaah cannot be unaware of or forget anything, saying that does not mean that He is incapable or is lacking, rather it is an affirmation of His perfection and complete power and knowledge.



The Four Gospels and the Epistles of Paul and John deny the divinity of Christ as it is denied by the Qur’aan, by Sa’d Rustam.



And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A

 

[Converse02]

^I like the post above. God cannot create another God as God (by definition) is the creator, not a creation.

However, can God create a creation that is also all-powerful, all-knowing, and good, etc?

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Haven't thought long about the answer, there's just an idea: If something needs to be created, than it's dependent on God, subhanahu wa ta'ala. And if it's dependent on someone, then that's in contradiction with being all-powerful.

 

[Converse02]

Haven't thought long about the answer, there's just an idea: If something needs to be created, than it's dependent on God, subhanahu wa ta'ala. And if it's dependent on someone, then that's in contradiction with being all-powerful.

Can God create something that is also unlimited like himself, that is not depend on the original God?

On a side, some atheists say the nature and the cosmos (which is more than just the universe) is unlimited and eternal. It does not need to be created or dependent on anything.

 

[Uthman]

Can God create a stone heavier than Him?

I don't know.

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Can God create something that is also unlimited like himself, that is not depend on the original God?

If something is created, then it's dependent upon it's creator.

On a side, some atheists say the nature and the cosmos (which is more than just the universe) is unlimited and eternal. It does not need to be created or dependent on anything.

Yes, but I think we both know that's only their opinion, which seems to contradict the well-established Big Bang theory.

 

[Güven]

Yep ,,Only Allah Knows His Own Power , Who are we That We Know His Great Power , and suppose he Could do That , Why Would He Do that , Whats The Benefit ?

 

[Converse02]

If something is created, then it's dependent upon it's creator.

So the answer is that the God "cannot" create something that is independent from God. That seems to be a limitation to his power, then is he really all-powerful?

Yes, but I think we both know that's only their opinion, which seems to contradict the well-established Big Bang theory.

Welll, yes, but do not think it contradicts the Big Bang theory.
The Big Bang theory only addresses this universe, which time did have a start. But physics is moving beyond the Big Bang. Our universe maybe only a brane within a higher-dimensional bulk, which maybe unlimited and eternal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-big_bang#Speculative_physics_beyond_the_Big_Bang

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

So the answer is that the God "cannot" create something that is independent from God. That seems to be a limitation to his power, then is he really all-powerful?

No, the answer is as in the previous questions: the questions isn't posed in a correct way, it contatins a contradiction in itself. If a being is all-powerful, all-knowing etc then it can't be dependent on someone else.

I'll read the wiki-aritcle later, in sha Allah.

 

[Converse02]

No, the answer is as in the previous questions: the questions isn't posed in a correct way, it contatins a contradiction in itself. If a being is all-powerful, all-knowing etc then it can't be dependent on someone else.

I am not convinced the question is a contradiction in itself.
Why can't I ask if an all-powerful Allah can creat a being who is also all-powerful like himself?

Consider:
Allah supposedly can create a being of X power.
He can create another being slightly more powerful. Continue to infinity. We know in mathematics if you do this, you will reach something that is unlimited.
Is it not conceivable he can create a being of unlimited power, like himself, who is not dependent?

By merely saying "All created things are dependent," I feel you have found a way out, be it is artificial. Why must all created things be dependent? Why can't Allah create something that is independent yet not himself (ie God)?

I'll read the wiki-aritcle later, in sha Allah.

Good luck. Just want you to know modern physics has moved beyond the Big Bang. It made me realize that although our universe and the Big Bang may have been "created" by the cosmos (for lack of a better term), the cosmos may not be. Perhaps the cosmos was never created, but just always there, following laws that were not created, but also just always there.

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

I think we didn't understand each other. The X-being is in at leat one moment dependent, and that is the moment of it's creation, it's existence depends on Allah.

 

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Good luck. Just want you to know modern physics has moved beyond the Big Bang. It made me realize that although our universe and the Big Bang may have been "created" by the cosmos (for lack of a better term), the cosmos may not be. Perhaps the cosmos was never created, but just always there, following laws that were not created, but also just always there.

Thanks. But this perhaps should be bolded.

 

[Converse02]

I think we didn't understand each other. The X-being is in at leat one moment dependent, and that is the moment of it's creation, it's existence depends on Allah.

I question why Muslims think all created things are dependent on Allah. What evidence do you have for this?
For example, take matter/energy. Science has shown that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed. It does not appear to be depend on anything. If you keep atoms in a box, with complete conservation of momentum, the atoms will continue bouncing around for all eternity.

If you say matter is depend on the will and thoughts of Allah, but why even go there? Why the extra step? Why not just accept matter exists and that's that?

 

[Azy]

Howdy doody Steve

Well I disagree. Desire might not be a limit on capabilities in theory, but in real life it does limit. To choose, is to lose; it's intrinsic to the very nature of choice so I fail to see that as a flaw of omnipotence. Why would God do something he doesn't want to do? And this is the very base argument of what we've been disagreeing on the whole time, it changes everything.

Well to short circuit the discussion, I could meet you halfway and say: in theory he is capable of being omni-malificence, but in real life he is not, since he chose to resign those powers.

The problem with this is that you don't actually know that and can't possibly know that. All you know is what you've been told, whether that is the truth or not you have no idea, unless you claim to know the mind of God.

One could argue God has been known to be fraudulent.
PICKTHAL 3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

[Arabic Dictionary] translates schemed (makr) as "Fraud, treachery, machination, imposture. Malice, malignity."