Split Moon

**`Abd al-Azeez** · 11-18-2006

There are many ahadeeths that say that Prophet Mohammad (saw) had split the moon (Sahih Bukhari #830, #832, #208, #209, #210, #211, #387 etc..)

Many non-Muslims say that if the moon was split by Prophet Mohammad (saw) then the whole world would've witnessed this great event but there is no evidence to suggest this. What should I say? The Qur'aan also confirms this miracle:

اقْتَرَبَتِ السَّاعَةُ وَانشَقَّ الْقَمَرُ

The Hour (of Judgment) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder.

Jazak Allah

:ws:

**Philosopher** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

So this Muslim who became afterwards a Muslim because he witnessed this "miracle" which I have no porblem accepting since the Torah not only says false prophets may perform miracles but in many cases WILL perform mircales. The only problem is that, if the moon split, I would have to say, that we would know about this event, from such a huge amount of writing and talk on the topic. Not from the manuscripts of one guy, or such. I can find hundreds of manuscripts speaking about how a fire "god" went around the earth 30 times spitting fire at every community and then justify it by finding a few accounts of fire gods.

I think we may just have to accept that the amount of evidence you require may be a lot less of which I require, which is not a bad thing, but a reality.

By your standards, Moses is a false prophet as well, since he performed miracles as well.

What writing are you talking about? Whats the use of documentation if they are fabricated (ex. Torah)? What about Noah and the flood of the entire earth? You can have a million documents stating this, but even an eight year old knows it's a poorly written fairy tale.

**جوري** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

So this Muslim who became afterwards a Muslim because he witnessed this "miracle" which I have no porblem accepting since the Torah not only says false prophets may perform miracles but in many cases WILL perform mircales. The only problem is that, if the moon split, I would have to say, that we would know about this event, from such a huge amount of writing and talk on the topic. Not from the manuscripts of one guy, or such. I can find hundreds of manuscripts speaking about how a fire "god" went around the earth 30 times spitting fire at every community and then justify it by finding a few accounts of fire gods.

I think we may just have to accept that the amount of evidence you require may be a lot less of which I require, which is not a bad thing, but a reality.

Prophet Mohammed PBUH splitting the moon isn't the fulcrum of why we are Muslims... Many messengers took their miracles with them, never to be duplicated, or even verified save for mention in their own holy books if at all. The Quran is prophet Mohammed biggest miracle to withstand the test of time and Islam ultimately is a thinking man's religion-- not for one looking for a table from heaven, but one who reflects on words and creation, and wishes to incorporate righteousness as a way of life --- There are things in the Quran about prophet Solomon for instance that will blow your mind away. The words the interpretation is beyond anything you have ever read... but that is a topic for another day...

There weren't thousands and thousands of other cultures at the time, there were a few civilized regions in the east... Gutenberg's Printing Press isn't even 6 centuries old let alone 15 centuries old for this sort of information to have been documented and disseminated with the level to your liking. Yet there is documentation nonetheless.

First you wanted in the least one documentation and we gave you one, for some reason it isn't satisfactory, since all you conceive is the false hood of prophet Mohammed PBUH' message, to which we say you are entitled to your beliefs. here is the thing though, I don't feel any obligation to make you believe...

peace!

**Hemoo** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

So this Muslim who became afterwards a Muslim because he witnessed this "miracle" which I have no porblem accepting since the Torah not only says false prophets may perform miracles but in many cases WILL perform mircales. The only problem is that, if the moon split, I would have to say, that we would know about this event, from such a huge amount of writing and talk on the topic. Not from the manuscripts of one guy, or such. I can find hundreds of manuscripts speaking about how a fire "god" went around the earth 30 times spitting fire at every community and then justify it by finding a few accounts of fire gods.

I think we may just have to accept that the amount of evidence you require may be a lot less of which I require, which is not a bad thing, but a reality.

first you are implying that this muslim man is a liar but as you see in the story that he accepted islam after saying what he said which conclude to us that he was not lying about it.

second from what we know that the spliting of the moon was seen by some of the Arab disbelievers and they even replied that it is just a continuous magic because many people have seen it. so even those disbelievers didn't deny it.

third: in these time when the moon did split, it was indeed at night in some counttries so the common thing is that people are sleeping and not hanging on watching the skies for an event to occur.

fourth: we both agree that the sea did split for prophet moses (P.B.U.H) and his muslim followers and this is considered one of the greatest events in history but where is the books of history that mentioned this event and how many are they.

because an event like that should have been so well-known between the egyptions and the near countries.

finally i want to ask you a question :

you say that the prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is a false prophet so in your opinion how could a liar be able to show miracles that only can be made with the Aid of Allah ?

how could a person say lies about Allah but he is still known for his good attributes untill now and he was able to gain victory on his enemies in spite having a smaller army ?

so who gave him aid and who told him about future things (like that muslims will conquers Egypt and be victorious after his death).

in your opinion why Allah the Almighty support Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with such miracles ?

Allah did support him just like Allah has supported All true prophets like noah, moses, David and others (may peace and blessings be upon them all)

**lavikor201** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

By your standards, Moses is a false prophet as well, since he performed miracles as well.

What writing are you talking about? Whats the use of documentation if they are fabricated (ex. Torah)? What about Noah and the flood of the entire earth? You can have a million documents stating this, but even an eight year old knows it's a poorly written fairy tale.

Alright well first we will get to your points.

1.) Moses was not accepted as a prophet because he did miracles.

The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law! Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world. Judaism says the non-Jews who did not recieve the proofs that the Torah is divine do not need to follow it. They just have to follow the seven laws of basic morality.

2.) On the flood story: You certainly cannot refute that the flood did not happen, and your own answer shows that if you use the exact same logic in all of your descions then the moon story must have ben a "poorly written fairly tail" as well.

First you wanted in the least one documentation and we gave you one, for some reason it isn't satisfactory, since all you conceive is the false hood of prophet Mohammed PBUH' message, to which we say you are entitled to your beliefs. here is the thing though, I don't feel any obligation to make you believe...

That is a misquote my friend. I wrote: I am speaking about why thousands of cultures did not begin reporting about how the moon split. It is actually a huge difference.

That was my question. You provided me with one account from a Muslim, who converted after he saw this "moon split". I am willing to accept that G-d can do such things, I am just asking why such things were not recorded.

I really think you are underestimating the period in time these events took place as well, labeling all the people as so backwards.

first you are implying that this muslim man is a liar but as you see in the story that he accepted islam after saying what he said which conclude to us that he was not lying about it.

second from what we know that the spliting of the moon was seen by some of the Arab disbelievers and they even replied that it is just a continuous magic because many people have seen it. so even those disbelievers didn't deny it.

third: in these time when the moon did split, it was indeed at night in some counttries so the common thing is that people are sleeping and not hanging on watching the skies for an event to occur.

fourth: we both agree that the sea did split for prophet moses (P.B.U.H) and his muslim followers and this is considered one of the greatest events in history but where is the books of history that mentioned this event and how many are they.

because an event like that should have been so well-known between the egyptions and the near countries.

finally i want to ask you how could a liar be able to show miracles that only can be made with the Aid of Allah ?

how could a person say lies about Allah but he is still known for his good attributes untill now and he was able to gain victory on his enemies in spite having a smaller army ?

so who gave him aid and who told him about future things (like that muslims will conquers Egypt and be victorious after his death).

What on earth are you talking about Sir? Your screaming about all these "miracles" it seems, that you will make everyone deaf?

I don't understand some of your questions like "how could someone say lies about G-d?" when such a thing has happend, and also you ask "how can a liar make miracles" easy, G-d gives him the power to, because there is a thing called the Yetzer Hora, which tries to tempt you. G-d writes that the Torah is eternal, and therefore, when al these false prophets come and do miracles, the test is if you will be led astray.

**جوري** · 04-23-2007

ha? a Muslim who converted to a Muslim? did you read the article? He wasn't at all Muslim.. he became so after witnessing the splitting of the moon... and it was recorded..

**lavikor201** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

ha? a Muslim who converted to a Muslim? did you read the article? He wasn't at all Muslim.. he became so after witnessing the splitting of the moon... and it was recorded..

I'd love to see the actual source but since that is impossible I will accept your source and, I will have to just offer up an explanation which you can reject or not.

Maybe this king who converted to Islam, said he saw it because he was a Muslim and wanted to support his religion.

Example: I read a story about a Buddhist who said the Buddha appeared and levitated her, and a bunch of statues and said that is why she converted to Buddhism. Another person testified that they saw it, it was a big thing in a Hebrew newspaper a while ago.

Now of course, I don't buy it, but she did convert and it was recorded!

My theory is she converted because she liked Buddhism and then described some miracle to try and convince others, and try and justufy how she made the right move. Now of course she might disagree, you might to!

Now, your welcome to hold your opinion, but do not expect me to jump over this. My question was about the thousands of civilizations that did exist at the time that should have seen it and recorded it.

Either way, I am not asking you for proof, I am stating my concern and a reason I very well have concerns with it although I feel G-d is compeltly capable of doing it. G-d helps false prophets to lead us astray because life is a test. Judaims teaches that the idolators use to heal people and perfomr crazy miracles to tempt the Jews.

I am not disputing the moon account for any reason other than, I am curious as to why such a big thing was not recorded so much.

**جوري** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

1.) Moses was not accepted as a prophet because he did miracles.[INDENT][FONT=verdana][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws.

Funny things is that is exactly what we told you in different words in post above yours. Islam isn't about Miracles... it is a thinking man's religion. Again we don't need a table from Heaven, nor is a moon splitting the crux of our religion.

**lavikor201** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Funny things is that is exactly what we told you in different words in post above yours. Islam isn't about Miracles... it is a thinking man's religion. Again we don't need a table from Heaven, nor is a moon splitting the crux of our religion.

Well I disagree that you can consider a religion based on that concept to require all to follow it or experience eternal fire, and pain. But I must go now, and it was a delight sharing thoughts with you. Hopefully, I will see you post more in the evolution thread.

**Keltoi** · 04-23-2007

It is interesting how many cultures tell tales of an ancient flood that affected just about everyone. Sort of hard to forget a flood that massive.

**جوري** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

I'd love to see the actual source but since that is impossible I will accept your source and, I will have to just offer up an explanation which you can reject or not.

Maybe this king who converted to Islam, said he saw it because he was a Muslim and wanted to support his religion.

Example: I read a story about a Buddhist who said the Buddha appeared and levitated her, and a bunch of statues and said that is why she converted to Buddhism. Another person testified that they saw it, it was a big thing in a Hebrew newspaper a while ago.

Now of course, I don't buy it, but she did convert and it was recorded!

Now, your welcome to hold your opinion, but do not expect me to jump over this. My question was about the thousands of civilizations that did exist at the time that should have seen it and recorded it.

Either way, I am not asking you for proof, I am stating my concern and a reason I very well have concerns with it although I feel G-d is compeltly capable of doing it. G-d helps false prophets to lead us astray because life is a test. Judaims teaches that the idolators use to heal people and perfomr crazy miracles to tempt the Jews.

I am not disputing the moon account for any reason other than, I am curious as to why such a big thing was not recorded so much.

You don't need to have concerns when it comes to Islam. I'd worry myself about your own beliefs. Muslims have never stolen gold from Egyptians to build themselves an idol calf to worship for instance, Nor have they worshipped a man named Ezra as some Jews... .. We have Also never incorporated old Indian mythology of reincarnation into our religion as some Jews to modern day believe! and, We don't need to deny other messengers for Prophet Mohammed to stand out as the bearer of truth! It is has been strictly monotheistic from the beginning.... I have already stated repeatedly, whether or not you believe the moon has split, is inconsequential to me. Your psychological analysis to fit modern day views of a man who lived 15 centuries ago is just as inconsequential, you think people then cared about today's politics, to contrast it with Buddhist mythology? That is laughable man! .... or do you mean to bother me by calling prophet Mohammed a false prophet? if that is what you need to tell yourself to keep being a pious Jew then by all means, but believe you me, it inspires nothing more than a shrug of the shoulders and a furtive smile on my end.

peace!

**جوري** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by lavikor201

Well I disagree that you can consider a religion based on that concept to require all to follow it or experience eternal fire, and pain. But I must go now, and it was a delight sharing thoughts with you. Hopefully, I will see you post more in the evolution thread.

That is your own low common denominator understanding of what it means to be Muslim, and unfortunately a product of a few who can't express themselves beyond these impressions. Islam has enriched my life in ways that can't be written. & I am thankful for such a gift... I believe everyone who follows the path of the righteous truthfully will have a more deep and sophisticated understanding beyond rewards or punishment... If I am going to distill Islam into one word as if a jeopardy question , it would be (justice) not (punishment)!

peace!

**Philosopher** · 04-23-2007

1.) Moses was not accepted as a prophet because he did miracles.

The scriptures, only call on Israel who witnessed G-d's deeds to follow and keep his laws. No other nation is threatened or blamed for not accepting the Torah/Law; they are not obligated to, for they did not witness the miracles which prove the truth of the Torah/Law! Moses did not demand that the children of Israel should believe in him, for none of them ever disputed the truth of the law, which they had witnessed together with him. But the books of Islam and Christianity vehemently curse everyone in the world who disbelieves them although they did not demonstrate their proofs to the whole world. Judaism says the non-Jews who did not recieve the proofs that the Torah is divine do not need to follow it. They just have to follow the seven laws of basic morality.

We simply need to look on the Torah's view on disbelievers to refute your claim.

2.) On the flood story: You certainly cannot refute that the flood did not happen, and your own answer shows that if you use the exact same logic in all of your descions then the moon story must have ben a "poorly written fairly tail" as well.

LMAO! Do you even know that the Old Testament account is taken as a myth nowadays? Even Christians do not take this account literally. The flood that engulfed the entire world did not happen, and archaeological evidence confirms this:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

The Torah account was copied from Gilgamesh.

**Trumble** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by Philosopher

LMAO! Do you even know that the Old Testament account is taken as a myth nowadays? Even Christians do not take this account literally.

Some do, and in increasing numbers. I came across THIS the other day;

Grand Canyon park guides will tell you that the canyon took more than a million years to form and cuts through rocks that span more than a billion years. Not so, say "Young Earth" creationists. All those rocks were deposited by flood waters at the time of Noah.

Though the Bible does not mention them directly, Ken Ham thinks there is no reason to suppose that dinosaurs were not still around at the time of the flood. Indeed, he speculates that two of each may have been taken aboard the Ark (newly hatched dinosaurs are quite small so fitting them in would not have been a problem).

And what about the animals from other continents? Did Noah sail to Australia to drop off the kangaroos? No, the flood waters lubricated a process called runaway subduction in which the continents subsequently drifted apart at a sprint!

This is my favourite bit

On a rocky ledge, there is a pair of small theropods - young T. rex individuals, we're told. And near to them ("hold onto your hat", says Ken, anticipating our disbelief) there are two human children playing by a stream.

Most geologists would say humans and dinosaurs were separated by more than 60 million years. And those dinosaurs have very sharp teeth!
"So do bears", says Ken, "but they eat nuts and berries! Remember, before the sin of Adam, the world was perfect. All creatures were vegetarian."

Erm.. OK.

**lavikor201** · 04-23-2007

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Nor have they worshipped a man named Ezra as some Jews... ..

Excuse me?

**mustafajadeed** · 04-26-2007

Salam Alay Koom:

I have a Blood sister (who is not Muslim- yet) who actually thinks that we "worship" the moon since it is on some flags of various countries, on Masjids, etc.

Do not go "Crazy" over things meant to just be accepted. Many do not believe in the Miraj- when the Prophet (saw) was taken from Mecca to Al Aqsa to Heaven, The Qur'an says it happened. (Q: 17:1). That is all I need to know. Some Miracles are not for everyone. Did the rest of the Sahaba-Companions go with him? No. Did they believe him? Not at that time- with the exception of Abu Bakr (as I remember it), until the Verse was sent down.

Did Everyone see the Flaming Bush? No.

Everyone saw Isa/ Jesus make the dove out of clay (Q: 5;113) and some were present at "the Last Supper" / when the Table was sent down(Q: 5:117), you can see how all of that ended up.

If the Qur'an says it happened, so be it.

Salam alay koom

**eagleye** · 04-28-2007

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Muslims have never stolen gold from Egyptians to build themselves an idol calf to worship for instance,

isn't the gold gave as recompensation for the slavery? (according to the bible)

Nor have they worshipped a man named Ezra as some Jews... ..

not familiar with. something that needs historical corroborating evidence to support that. especially when you throw towards a Jew i.e. lavikor201 or even any non muslim. it's maybe circulated in Islamic believes. this has no relevance to others.

We have Also never incorporated old Indian mythology of reincarnation into our religion as some Jews to modern day believe!

the reincarnation is something as well existed in Greek's philosophy.
later adopted by certain Jewish mystics (kabalists) as well by certain Islamic mystics (Sufis) it is however not dogmatic. there are strong opposition from Orthodox body in both religions i.e. Islam and Judaism.

**vpb** · 04-28-2007

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/303737...lit_from_nasa/

**- Qatada -** · 04-28-2007

Originally Posted by eagleye

not familiar with. something that needs historical corroborating evidence to support that. especially when you throw towards a Jew i.e. lavikor201 or even any non muslim. it's maybe circulated in Islamic believes. this has no relevance to others.

I'll quote bro Ansar:

http://www.islamicboard.com/304721-post23.html

I responded to this issue in the thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/7668-questions-christian-friend.html

Again,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Muhammad Asad is a jew who converted to Islam and this is what he says about this verse:

This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation. The charge of shirk ("the ascribing of divinity [or "divine qualities"] to aught beside God") is levelled against both the Jews and the Christians in amplification, as it were, of the statement that they "do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them]".
As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our giblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?") On the other hand, Ezra occupies a unique position in the esteem of all Jews, and has always been praised by them in the most extravagant terms. It was he who restored and codified the Torah after it had been lost during the Babylonian Exile, and "edited" it in more or less the form which it has today; and thus "he promoted the establishment of an exclusive, legalistic type of religion that became dominant in later Judaism" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, vol. IX, p. 15). Ever since then he has been venerated to such a degree that his verdicts on the Law of Moses have come to be regarded by the Talmudists as being practically equivalent to the Law itself: which, in Qur'anic ideology, amounts to the unforgivable sin of shirk, inasmuch as it implies the elevation of a human being to the status of a quasi-divine law-giver and the blasphemous attribution to him - albeit metaphorically - of the quality of "sonship" in relation to God. Cf. in this connection Exodus iv, 22-23 ("Israel is My son") or Jeremiah xxxi, 9 ("I am a father to Israel"): expressions to which, because of their idolatrous implications, the Qur'dn takes strong exception. (Asad, Message of the Qur'an)

More info here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...rnal/ezra.html

...the quote that I gave from Muhammad Asad, a former Jew himself, who pointed out that, as mentioned in At-Tabari's tafsir, some Jews came to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and said, "How can we follow you when you do not believe Uzayr is the son of God?". Noice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believe Uzayr is the son of God, but the Qur'an is very precise in saying that the Jews say Uzayr is the son of God. Thus, it cannot be a contradiction in any way since the Qur'an is only responding to the verbal proclamation of a group of Jews!

Also interesting is Dr. Muhammad Mohar Ali's comments on this issue:

Of course there is no evidence in the extant Old Testament about it; but the Qur'an was not referring to what is written in the Old Testament about 'Uzayr but to the belief and assertion of some of the Jews of the time who regarded 'Uzayr as the son of God. In fact the 'ayah in question, 9:30, starts with the expression: "And the Jews say". The commentator Al-Baydawi, to whome Watt refers a number of times in his book, (fn. Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, 108, note 2 to Chapter 1 and notes 2 and 10 to Chapter III) makes it clear with reference to this 'ayah that because the Old Testament was given its present form by 'Uzayr, many of the Jews of the time considered him a "son of God" and that specifically at Madina there was a group of Jews who held that belief. Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412). It is to be noted that this 'ayah is unanimously regarded as Madinan. Hence the silence of the Jews of the place on the matter is suggestive enough, particularly as they were avowed critics of the Prophet.
Not only Al-Baydawi but also other commentators mention that the 'ayah refers to the views of a particular group of the Jews. For instance, Al-Tabari bives a number of reports together with their chains of narrators specifically mentioning the leading Jews of Madina who considered Uzayr a son of God. The most prominent of those Jews were Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf (fn. Al-Tabari, Tafsir, XIV, 201-204). Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117). (Muhammad Mohar Ali, The Qur'an and the Orientalists, Jam'iyat 'Ihyaa' Minhaaj Al-Sunnah 2004, p. 66)

So as for what he quotes,

Notice the words "proposed" and "assumption". There are no records from any Jewish community that believed Ezra was the Son of God!

First of all, this is the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantium which we can refute with the expression, "absence of proof is not proof of absence". In other words, just because we don't have Judaic records that shows that Jews believed this, does not prove that no Jews ever believed this!

Secondly, as was previously mentioned, there are specific historical narrations related by Qur'anic commentators like Al-Baydawi and At-Tabari which state the names of specific Jewish leaders who came forward to the Muslims and said "We cannot believe you since you do not accept Uzayr as the son of God". And notice that the Qur'an doesn't say that the Jews believed Uzayr was the son of God, it says quite clearly that they said he was the son of God. So, the Qur'an was responding to an explicit proclamation of the Jews. Either the Jews were intentionally lying, or they actually believed what they said - but in any event the Qur'an can't be wrong since the Jews of Madinah actually said this.

:w

Guest wrote:

Take a look at the context, if that Sura says that Jews at "ONE POINT" believed that Ezra was the Son of God, then Christians at "ONE POINT" believed that Jesus was the Son of God.

Yes, it does not speak about the beliefs of anyone - it says the Jews SAY, i.e. it was responding to a verbal statement made by the Jews of Madinah.[/quote]

**Snowflake** · 04-28-2007

Scientific proof that the moon had once split

http://fesabilillah.wordpress.com/20...oon-splitting/

**eagleye** · 04-28-2007

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

"absence of proof is not proof of absence". In other words, just because we don't have Judaic records that shows that Jews believed this, does not prove that no Jews ever believed this!

nor does it verifies jews did.
as I replied before: "circulated in Islamic believes"

but in any event the Qur'an can't be wrong since the Jews of Madinah actually said this.

you committing circular reasoning.