Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

format_quote Originally Posted by Goku

Some hadith are not very.....pleasent

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them. That is why the Hadith Rejectors reject. They come across a Hadith that doesnt make sense to them, so they say, "It doesnt make sense to me, therefore it has to be false". They are fooling themselves and speaking about which they have no knowledge and letting their ignorance decieve them.

They claim they follow the Quran, but they are the ones who are the furthest away from following it!

And the irony of the matter is that the Messenger of Allah told us in Hadiths that there will be people rejecting Hadiths and he forbade us from doing as they do.

Dawud :: Book 40 : Hadith 4588

Narrated AbuRafi':

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book we have followed.

But the point is if you deny an authentic Hadith, you're a kafir.

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi said on the matter over at AlMaghrib Forums with regards to the "Submitters":

Salaam Alaikum

Yes, this group that you mentioned (the "Submitters") are not Muslims, by unanimous consensus of the Ummah. They believe that the Sunnah is not a source of law, and thus reject the very concept of following it. They pray three times a day, with only ruku/sujood (i.e., only what the Quran says). They consider it shirk to follow the Prophet (saw).

Hence this group should be treated as non-Muslim

Wa Salaam
Yasir

Source

To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.

49: 1. O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allah and His Messenger (), and fear Allah. Verily! Allah is All-Hearing All-Knowing.

One should say, when he doesnt understand a Hadith or is confronted with one that seemingly contradicts others that he will research into the matter more, and ask the scholors and not go with what he himself desires. One should not do as the Hadith rejectors do, and claim that the hadith is false. That is putting oneself forward before Allah and His Messenger.

Assalamu Alaikum

Actually the definition of kafir is that of not having a causal body; whereas there are many persons whom are simply not informed of ahadith.

Even a Shaytan has a causal body, or a Soul, although they are at cause of a different density, a different ultimate evolutionary trajectory, and have a markedly different internal comprehension which causes that they are unable to discern that the Jinn are not their own self. That is why they generally, along with all the false work of the Jinn, are collectively knownable only by the name Shaytan. A Kafir is less than a shaytan, yet might be able to learn to comprehend the world more liken to a Human, but at that it is dangerous to assume a Human comprehension of any non-believer. By Human comprehension I am referring to that of accepting a truly Human account in Allah. Yet while we can not assume such of kafir we can train kafir to accept accountiblity as a mental process, by connecting such with fear of dying.

All that stated it is certainly true that many kafir are far more likely to want to try to refute any ahadith. The act of attempting to refute hadith is certainly an act of kafr, that is causal to kafir becoming. Thereby any manifestation of kafr, even, and especially among true believers, can be regarded as causing a kafir to exist. Therefore when we fail to believe in every ahadith we could by accident cause that we manifest becoming responsible for the entire existance of a kafir, only by a single act of kafr.

However, we can accurately state that there could be a specific ahadith, or portion of, which we find difficulty in sustaining total belief in simply because we have not yet experienced empirical evidence that verifies it irrefutably.

Saying that you are finding that you can not yet convince your entire being of a specific Prophesy is not an acting kafr, only so long as you are truly working towards convincing your entire being, and are also truly not yet within actual worldy evidence of how such could be true. There may be a part of you which truly manifests genuine belief that all ahadith must be true, yet another part which might have experienced a shaytan's efforts to refute ahadith and so is effected by black magic and uncertain in what is real. In that case the experience of much of ahadith being true should be enough to convince that all of is true, and so there is the kafr of believing in shaytan. But for any persons for whom Qur'an is evidenced, that evidence is also evidence of all of ahadith if their attitude of respect towards the Prophet Mohammed, with Peace and Allah's blessing, is that correct.

So what I am saying is that if you are truly a Muslim then you are in kafr to disbelieve any ahadith. But if you are a true believer in One God, whom is not yet within experience of the Mohammed's Prophethood as real, then it can not be kafr to want to find scientific evidence in ahadith before manifesting belief in.

In between being so convinced as to be Mujahideen, and being a non-Muslim believer in One God, there are many true believers whom occassionally fall in mental doubt of those difficult among hadith. Where that mental doubt is kafr, so causal to kafir, depends upon whether they act intentionally within that doubt in true belief.

To sit reading and find that you are so in fear of any specific ahadith that you are actualising ignorance of its truth, is a matter between you and Allah, around what your mind desires to believe instead of the ahadith. There are times when fear has caused persons to ignore the empirical evidence in front of them, and when that occurs they find that what they manifest could be as bad as kafr if they honestly internally made any effort to mentally disprove the ahadith. But if any persons sustain a conviction that all the ahadith must be true: and within that their mind registers that there is a particular ahadith which they are NOT YET UNDERSTANDING; then they need to sustain internal honesty in that respect and they will remain free of kafr.

You can find then that the issue is quite complex; but really only complex because of the totality of the variation amid the Human experience BEFORE entering Islam. Those responsibilities we bring with us from prior to conversion, and reversion, (reconversion), are likely to make us fear ourself overly and then to accidentally manifest falls to shaytan and the kafr of shaytan. That is why we are so often in Prayer and reciting/reading Qur'an.

If you are in doubt about all of ahadith, there is no reason not to use Prayer and speaking aloud an Surah of Qur'an which you are in total certainty of, as the means for seeking verification in any hadith which your mind could be, by accident of history, in doubt in.

Assalam Alaikum rvq

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Why does the Qur'an tell us to accept what the Prophet pbuh gives and leave what he forbids? Why doesn't it say to accept and leave only what the Qur'an permits and forbids?

59:7 So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

salam,

you have just used the above verse to try and prove that the Hadith are a Divine source of Law and Guidance, alongside the Holy Qur'an, which all Muslims are obliged to follow.

If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet:


" What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger from the people of the townships - it is for Allah, His Messenger, the relatives, the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you ; and whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. " - (59:07)


So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war! Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt to trick the Muslim world into believing that the Hadith have some Divine Authority from Allah to be followed like the Holy Qur'an.


wsalam

format_quote Originally Posted by Companion

I hope me responding in this thread will not be going against the truce I have with Ansar-al-Adl as this thread is a debate thread.

It is not against our agreement.

and show how clearly the correct understanding should be, with the will of Allah, the Most Wise.

Unfortunately for you, since you reject Ahâdîth, you lack any objective criterion as to what constitutes the 'correct' understanding' and what does not; it is no more than your thoughts since you yourself concede that you lack even a basic understanding of Mustalah Al-Hadith.

First let us establish that the 'zikr' (reminder) refers exclusively to the Qur'an

This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:
21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.

The reminder (zikr) refers to the Qur'an, as we also see from other verses:

This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation! Many of the references you cite are indeed references to the Qur'an. But it is inherently fallacious to evince from such a premise that the reference is exclusive to the Qur'an.

( * ) tubayyina

Does this word mean give additional details?

This is where some basic linguistics comes into play. The word mentioned in the ayat is لتبين meaning to provide البيانelucidation, clarification, explanation in order to make it clear. The notion that it refers to mere deliverance of the message is exploded in the following paragraph which I quote directly in arabic:

{ وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم }.

ففي هذه الآية الكريمة نصر صريح أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم انزل عليه القرآن وكلف بوظيفة البيان لهذا القرآن، هذا البيان المذكور في هذه الآية الكريمة: هو السنة المطهرة.

{And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.}

And in this noble verse is clear evidence that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the Qur'an revealed to him and was given the duty of explaining (bayân) this Qur'an; this explanation mentioned in this noble verse is the Pure Sunnah.

How would there be so many classical tafseers entitled Bayân Al-Qur'ân if it only meant conveying or disclosing it?? The word had always been known to carry the meaning of elucidation.

The translation you give says 'explain', however we shall see that the Qur'anic translation [sic!!] of the word shows us that the english 'explain' is not an accurate translation.

The translation is established on the simple basis of the arabic language which is known to even the layman, and is in concordance with the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Let us look at another verse which uses the same word:

And God took the covenant of those who were given the Scripture: "You will make it clear (latubayyinunna) to the people and not conceal it (taktumuuna)." But they threw it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased. [Qur'an 3:187]

In the above, Allah tells us how others who were given the Scripture and were entrusted 'to make it known' (tubayinah) to people what was given to them, and not conceal it (taktumuna). 'taktumuna' is used to mean 'to conceal and hide', and is used as a direct opposite to 'tubayyina'.

THis verse actually constitutes a DECISIVE REFUTATION of your position! The People of the Book here are condemned for failing to pass the message to THEIR PEOPLE. It is not Prophets being referred to here who failed their duty. It is ordinary people. They were not concealing something that God had revealed by means of divine inspiration to their souls. NO, they were concealing the knowledge of their religion that they possesed, i.e. THE SCHOLARS. They failed to TEACH their people and concealed the KNOWLEDGE of the religion from them. Thus, the word here again refers to teaching and explaining the religious teachings.

Also, you commit another logical fallacy here in that if someone were to say to you "Don't sit here, run away!" It does not mean that run is the opposite of sit, rather stand is more accurately described as the opposite of sit. Your conclusion is clearly unwarranted here.

We see from the above, that Qur'anic meaning of the word 'tubayyina' is to 'disclose' or 'let it be known' and not 'give additional details' as you are suggesting.

WRONG. 'naba' is the word you are thinking of and that is why Prophets are Anbiya, sing. Nabi, because they announce, disclose, and make known to the people the impending day of judgement. The word tubayyina means to clarify, elucidate, explicate, explain something so that it is made clear. It is the Sunnah of the Prophet saws which clarifies the Qur'an in both his actions and sayings.

Now here is an ayat for you to think about:

يا أيها الذين آمنوا إن جاءكم فاسق بنبأ فتبينوا أن تصيبوا قوما بجهالة فتصبحوا على ما فعلتم نادمين
49:6 O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, clarify/scrutinize/examine it (FATABAYYANU) , lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.

How could this word possibly be translated as 'disclosed' here? That would actually give the opposite meaning! If a rebellious person comes to you with gossip, you are NOT supposed to pass it on, convey it, disclose it, rather you are supposed to clarify and verify the matter!!

The word has the root ba-ya-na. Which gives us the meanings:

"To be or become manifest, evident." - A Dictionary and Glosarry of the Koran by J.Penrice pp-21
"Be evident, render clear." - Arabic English Dictionary by F. Steingass pp-155
"Manifest, bring into view, disclose." - Al Mawrid Arabic English Dictionary pp-256
"To show, Manifest" - Al Asri Arabic English Dictionary pp 85
"To be or become plain, Evident, come out, visible, to announce." - Hans Wehr Arabic-Eng. Dictionary pp-87

The problem is you're quoting selective lines from english-arabic translation dictionaries rather than quoting the full definition from the arabic lexicons as you should be; here is a short sample:
http://lexicons.ajeeb.com/openme.asp...l/3083657.html

It is saying that the reminder (the Qur'an) has been sent down so that the Messenger shall let it be known to all people (tubayyina), instead of keeping it to himself.

Wrong. It is not to make something known, it is to make something CLEAR as we have witnessed above the Sunnah functions to clarify, elucidate and explain the Qur'an.

A revealed scripture, such as the Qur'an, the Torah, or Injeel, do not have to be the only sort of inspiration to its respective messenger. We see that people of the past have received knowledge, or inspiration, yet those inspirations were not parts of any Scripture. Prophet Yusuf's father said:

He said: "I merely complain my grief and sorrow to God, and I know from God what you do not know." [Qur'an 12:86]

This knowledge he received was not part of a Scripture.

Prophet Yusuf was also given the 'knowledge' of intepreting dreams [12:6].
However this knowledge given to him was not part of a Scripture.

Maryam was met by an angel who spoke to her on behalf of Allah, however there is no indication that those words uttered by the angel were to be part of any scripture bieng revealed to Maryam. [19:16-21]

The Prophet may well have been given knowledge, such as the actions of his wives outside of the Qur'an, however that knowledge given by Allah, and the revelation of the verses of the Qur'an, are two very different things. That is because the Qur'an is a Scripture (kitab), consisting of revealed verses, these are revealed to be part of a complete guide (the Qur'an attests to it bieng a complete book of guide). However other knowledges to the Prophet may not be in the form of verses.

So you have CONCEDED the challenge and admitted that:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

The Prophet pbuh says in the above ayat that God informed him about what his wives had done (naba'aniyal aleem al-khabeer) : show me the ayat in the Qur'an where Allah swt disclosed this information. If you cannot then you must concede that the Prophet pbuh recieved other divine information not mentioned in the Qur'an.

This is proving to be too easy!

The fact that the Prophet may have received knowledge outside of the Qur'an, does not do anything in the way to proove that we need any source other than the Qur'an, because the Qur'an tells us it is complete and fully detailed. Any other knowledge or inspiration to the Prophet, is not neccessary for guidance (which is why it is not in the Qur'an).

So I guess you won't be celebrating Eid with us since it is not found in the Qur'an! It seems you will also be abandoning Salah, Zakat, Wudu, Fasting, Hajj, and for that matter every single Islamic practice since the Qur'an only gives the general directive to establish prayer but provides no details as to number of rakaa'a, arkaan, shuroot, etc. etc.

Since you claim we need no other source apart from the Qur'an, do tell me that apply to cutting off the hand for burglary as mentioned in the Qur'an - what is the threshold value, does it apply to children, insane, the impoverished? None of these questions can be answered without reference to the Sunnah.

What if someone tells you that they don't need to pray these five daily formal prayers since 'salah' just means having any type of connection with Allah swt? Your own methodlogy demolishes itself!

I strongly suggest you take a wise step in your learning and move beyond scrounging for justifications for ill-informed conjecture to the level of ACTUALLY educating yourself about hadeeth sciences, its rules, its system of classification and how you can follow the sunnah of the Prophet saws.

Say (O Muhammad): "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

format_quote Originally Posted by ameen

salam,

you have just used the above verse to try and prove that the Hadith are a Divine source of Law and Guidance, alongside the Holy Qur'an, which all Muslims are obliged to follow.

If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet:


" What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger from the people of the townships - it is for Allah, His Messenger, the kindred (of the Prophet), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. " - (59:07)


So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war! Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt to trick the Muslim world into believing that the Hadith have some Divine Authority from Allah to be followed like the Holy Qur'an.


wsalam

ahadith is the booty of war

We have to appreciate deeds of scholars like Bukhari, Muslim etc..... is NOT EASY to collect true hadiths.

For people who reject hadiths... they should learn Ulum Al Hadith (sciences of Hadith) first before .... saying they reject hadith....

Sadly Jemaah Al Quran Malaysia (Anti-Hadith Group) lead by Kassim Ahmad has lots of members... even can voice their opinion in a magazine....

I shed tears after reading one of Kassim Ahmad's article that ridiculed Imam Bukhari.....

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them. That is why the Hadith Rejectors reject. They come across a Hadith that doesnt make sense to them, so they say, "It doesnt make sense to me, therefore it has to be false". They are fooling themselves and speaking about which they have no knowledge and letting their ignorance decieve them.

They claim they follow the Quran, but they are the ones who are the furthest away from following it!

And the irony of the matter is that the Messenger of Allah told us in Hadiths that there will be people rejecting Hadiths and he forbade us from doing as they do.

Shaykh Yasir Qadhi said on the matter over at AlMaghrib Forums with regards to the "Submitters":

To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.

49: 1. O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allah and His Messenger (), and fear Allah. Verily! Allah is All-Hearing All-Knowing.

One should say, when he doesnt understand a Hadith or is confronted with one that seemingly contradicts others that he will research into the matter more, and ask the scholors and not go with what he himself desires. One should not do as the Hadith rejectors do, and claim that the hadith is false. That is putting oneself forward before Allah and His Messenger.

Salam Alaikum

You said:

To disbelieve in even one hadith after it has been authenticated renders your Islam incomplete.

I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.

I dont reject hadith, I accept them. And I am very grateful to Imam Bukhari (and Muslim), after reading how extensively he authenticated the hadith and even prayed 2 rakat before recording every hadith, I understand it must have been difficult for him. God bless their soul. However, with some hadith, such as the ones i mentioned, which I am not sure over, i dont reject them outright but am a bit cautious on them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Goku

Salam Alaikum

You said:



I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.

I dont reject hadith, I accept them. And I am very grateful to Imam Bukhari (and Muslim), after reading how extensively he authenticated the hadith and even prayed 2 rakat before recording every hadith, I understand it must have been difficult for him. God bless their soul. However, with some hadith, such as the ones i mentioned, which I am not sure over, i dont reject them outright but am a bit cautious on them.

Akhi, I understand. The first sentence of my post:

It seems that way to most of us because we dont understand some of them.

That is why we have scholors. It is high time we go to them and ask what does such and such a hadith mean, then go to lay people who have no knowledge in hadith, who speak of their own desires and ask them what they think! The cure for our ignorance is asking the right people isnt it?

This is proving to be too easy!

Mashallah.

format_quote Originally Posted by ameen

If only we read the WHOLE verse altogether, it becomes abundantly clear just why you had to quote only a part of it (and not all of it) to try and make your point.

When we read the whole verse, we see that what the Muslims at the Prophet's time were being commanded here, is to only take the booties / spoils of war which are assigned to them by the Prophet, and not to be greedy about it - ie. not to take what they are forbidden by the Prophet

This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!

So you see, in reality, this verse has nothing to do with following Hadith, but rather it is about dealing with the booties of war!

Actually, the Sahâba, may Allah swt be pleased with him, had the correct understanding of this verse:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.” A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.” He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?” She said, “I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e., the whole Qur’an).” He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).”

Your interpretation, br. Ansar Al 'Adl, is clearly another decietful attempt

Funny that you should accuse the Sahâba, those closest to the Prophet saws and those whom he praised continuosly, of deceit!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Goku

I have been reading into hadith recently, quite a lot. I even spent 4 hours one day continuously read Bukhari and Muslim Authentic hadith. There are many wonderful things in the Hadith, but to fully and unconditionally accept every single hadith will mean we have to accept the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) may have forced people to convert to Islam, stoned people and tortured someone by branding their eyes. These are not the qualities of the Mercy for Mankind, the near perfect character.

This is exactly what happens with hadith-rejectors. They are not scholars but lay people who come across some Ahâdîth they find troubling and instead of going to the scholars for explanations and understanding, they allow the doubts to fester inside them and they begin to reject these hadith. The renowned scholar of Hadith, Sufyan Ibn Uyaynah said, "al-hadith madilla illa li’l-‘ulama’: ‘the hadith are a pitfall, except for the scholars."

Actually bro, the hadith you are referring to was explained in my article here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#18

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

This is why I continually urge you to educate yourself on the basics of Usûl al-Fiqh, brother. The specificity of the sabab does not enable takhsîs on the generality of the statement. In fact, even common sense is enough to expose the absurdity of the notion you are advancing! Is it logical to suggest that if the Prophet saws gives us directives regarding war booty we are religiously obligated to obey, yet when he provides us with any other instructions we can disobey the Messenger of Allah?!
Actually, the Sahâba, may Allah swt be pleased with him, had the correct understanding of this verse:

Once ‘Abdullah ibn Mas`ud quoted this saying of the Prophet while he was delivering a sermon: “May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God.” A woman named Umm Ya`qub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas`ud and said, “O Abu ‘Abdur-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women.” He said, “Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well?” She said, “I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e., the whole Qur’an).” He replied, “Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse? [So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you](Al-Hashr 59:7).”

Funny that you should accuse the Sahâba, those closest to the Prophet saws and those whom he praised continuosly, of deceit!!





This is exactly what happens with hadith-rejectors. They are not scholars but lay people who come across some Ahâdîth they find troubling and instead of going to the scholars for explanations and understanding, they allow the doubts to fester inside them and they begin to reject these hadith. The renowned scholar of Hadith, Sufyan Ibn Uyaynah said, "al-hadith madilla illa li’l-‘ulama’: ‘the hadith are a pitfall, except for the scholars."

Actually bro, the hadith you are referring to was explained in my article here:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#18

I would definitely agree, I have the same problem concerning particular Hadiths I don't understand...

We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

Its clear but it doesnt prove your point in the least.

53:3 Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

53: 4. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.

These verses prove that whatever the Prophet said was an inspiration from Allah. Or are you saying that when the Prophet spoke he spoke only the Quran and nothing else?!

Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind, shall see instantly as clear as daylight, that this verse is refering to the Mighty Qur'an.

We shall now look at the two verses in context by looking at its surrounding verses, please read attentively:

[53:1] As the star collapsed.
[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration (In huwa illa wahyun yooha).
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.
[53:6] Free from any defect, he became stable.
[53:7] While he was at the highest horizon.
[53:8] Then he drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
[53:10] He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The heart did not invent what it saw.
[53:12] Do you doubt him in what he saw?
[53:13] And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
[53:14] By the lote-tree of the utmost boundary,
[53:15] Near it is the eternal Paradise.
[53:16] When that which shroudeth did enshroud the lote-tree,
[53:17] his eye-sight turned not aside, neither did it wander:
[53:18] and he saw some of the greatest signs of his Lord.

- Qur'an 53:1-18

Nothing further is needed to clarify that this is referring to the Qur’anic revelation. We can tell more so because the Qur’an is giving us the setting in which the Prophet found himself in. One with an unprejudiced mind would imagine how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument by assuming for the sake of argument, that this 'wahi' (divine inspiration) is also refering to the Prophet's everyday normal speech.

The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was wahi, since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause:

God forgive you [Prophet]! Why did you give them permission to stay at home before it had become clear to you which of them spoke the truth and which were liars? [Qur’an 9:43]

If everything the Prophet said was ‘wahi’, then he would not have made errors as he had done there, he would have been infallible. And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.

In another verse of the Qur’an, we are told how the Prophet prohibited something on himself when Allah had made it permissible:

O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful. [Qur’an 66:1]

Again, if everything the Prophet uttered was divine inspiration (wahi), then why does this Qur’anic verse admonish the Prophet the way it does? If the Qur’an is wahi and the Prophets normal speech was wahi too, surely they would not contradict each other.

Now, we have first read the two Qur’anic verses [53:2-3] in context in that which it is in. We then have seen by way of other Qur’anic verses, that not everything the Prophet said could be ‘wahi’. The Prophet had a distinct self where he spoke as a fallible human being, he then had a wahi which was infallible. This infallible ‘wahi’, is none other then the Glorious Qur’an.

[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.

- Qur'an 53:2-5

The following verse further proves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:

So perhaps you wish to ignore some of what has been inspired to you (ma yooha ilayka), and you are depressed by it, because they Say: "If only a treasure was sent down with him, or an Angel had come with him!" You are but a warner, and God is caretaker over all things. Or do they Say: "He invented it!" Say: "Bring ten invented chapters like it, (biAAashri suwarin mithlihi) and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful." [Qur'an 11:12-13]

In the above verse, reference is made to 'wahi'. This wahi is refered to the Surah's ('Bring ten surahs like it), and we know that the Qur'an is composed of surahs. The Prophet's normal speach is not included in this 'wahi', which the disblievers are challenged to emulate.

We therefore conclude that Qur'anic 53:2-3 refers solely to the Qur'an. It is saying that the Qur'an's source is not the Prophet's personal desire, rather it has been taught to him by the One mighty in power.

format_quote Originally Posted by Companion

We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:



Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind, shall see instantly as clear as daylight, that this verse is refering to the Mighty Qur'an.

We shall now look at the two verses in context by looking at its surrounding verses, please read attentively:

[53:1] As the star collapsed.
[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.
[53:6] Free from any defect, he became stable.
[53:7] While he was at the highest horizon.
[53:8] Then he drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until he became as near as two bow-lengths or nearer.
[53:10] He then conveyed the inspiration to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The heart did not invent what it saw.
[53:12] Do you doubt him in what he saw?
[53:13] And indeed, he saw him in another descent.
[53:14] By the lote-tree of the utmost boundary,
[53:15] Near it is the eternal Paradise.
[53:16] When that which shroudeth did enshroud the lote-tree,
[53:17] his eye-sight turned not aside, neither did it wander:
[53:18] and he saw some of the greatest signs of his Lord.

- Qur'an 53:1-18

Nothing further is needed to clarify that this is referring to the Qur’anic revelation. We can tell more so because the Qur’an is giving us the setting in which the Prophet found himself in. One with an unprejudiced mind would imagine how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument.

No, you can tell because you are making up your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing here, as you did to the word "zikr" and Br. Ansar annihalated your fallacy:

This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!

No word is there that indicates that is exclusively referring to the Quran. Do you not understand the translation?

Nor does he speak from personal desire.

That is referring to everything that the Prophet said. How can you differ what is from the Quran and what is hadith when both came from the same person and were preserved by the SAME people without the Science of Ahadith which you are completely ignorant of?! By your logic, one would either take everything that is attributed from the Prophet, the Quran, the hadith, or one would reject it all.

The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was ‘wahi’ (divine inspiration), since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause:

God forgive you [Prophet]! Why did you give them permission to stay at home before it had become clear to you which of them spoke the truth and which were liars? [Qur’an 9:43]

If everything the Prophet said was ‘wahi’, then he would not have made errors as he had done there, he would have been infallible. And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.

You refuted yourself. You admit that there is something other than the Quran. Or are you saying the Prophet used to lie and what is in the Quran is the only truth he spoke?!

Again:

You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!

In another verse of the Qur’an, we are told how the Prophet prohibited something on himself when Allah had made it permissible:

O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Merciful. [Qur’an 66:1]

Again, if everything the Prophet uttered was divine inspiration (wahi), then why does this Qur’anic verse admonish the Prophet the way it does? If the Qur’an is wahi and the Prophets normal speech was wahi too, surely they would not contradict each other.

And who said the Ahadith and the Quran contradict each other? This is an evidence of your ignorance about the Ahadith.

You lack knowledge, and you refuse to educate yourself to gain that knowledge.

Now, we have first read the two Qur’anic verses [53:2-3] in context in that which it is in. We then have seen by way of other Qur’anic verses, that not everything the Prophet said could be ‘wahi’. The Prophet had a distinct self where he spoke as a fallible human being, he then had a wahi which was infallible. This infallible ‘wahi’, is none other then the Glorious Qur’an.

So, when the Prophet gave rulings to his companions on how to pray, how many rakats, which is not mentioned in the Quran it was fallible? Was he telling his companions something he made up? You have failed to answer my questions. Here they are for you again:

Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

The Quran tells you to cut off the hand of the theif. Will you cut it off of children? An insane man? Or a person that was starving to death so he had to steal food? The Quran mentions some rulings regarding Prayer, i.e shortening of it when traveling but it does not tell you HOW this is to be done. The same applies to fasting and the same applies to Zakat.

[53:2] Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor does he speak from personal desire.
[53:4] It is a divine inspiration.
[53:5] He has been taught by One mighty in power.

- Qur'an 53:2-5

The following verse prooves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:

So perhaps you wish to ignore some of what has been inspired to you (ma yooha ilayka), and you are depressed by it, because they Say: "If only a treasure was sent down with him, or an Angel had come with him!" You are but a warner, and God is caretaker over all things. Or do they Say: "He invented it!" Say: "Bring ten invented chapters like it, (biAAashri suwarin mithlihi) and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful." [Qur'an 11:12-13]

In the above verse, reference is made to 'wahi'. This wahi is refered to the Surah's ('Bring ten surahs like it), and we know that the Qur'an is composed of surahs. The Prophet's normal speach is not included in this 'wahi', which the disblievers are challenged to emulate.

Same thing AGAIN! You are citing your [mis]interpetations and assuming it is fact!

You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation!

We therefore conclude that Qur'anic 53:2-3 refers solely to the Qur'an. It is saying that the Qur'an's source is not the Prophet's personal desire, rather it has been taught to him by the One mighty in power.

No such conclusion has been made. In fact, the verse is referring to everything that the Prophet said that had to with religion and religious matters. Everything that he told us regarding the religion was from Allah and MOST of the details and rulings of the religion are in the Ahadith which NECCISITATES that they be preserved, few being in the Quran and those being general.

Assalam Alaikum, to whom I can dare to believe in the necessity of extra

now I could dare any person whom is an anti-(a?)hadith sort, to read the thread with a story about an Ant that never finishes; and try to still manifest no clarity in why to believe in every ahadith

OR,

I could just tell you that you might turn out to be who is delaying the counting of The Dajjal if you are not attuning with every ahadith;

and, that every person whom has read that Ant ridden nonsense thread, knows.

But if there manifest no persons believing me, then no person will ever know whether I am ever even believable? Will they?

But this bit I am not at all sure about: is it that there is any coincidence of reasoning between the anti-(a?)hadith lobby and an iron shirt Kung Fu practise? Because if so, then the whole job is already well and truly stitched up and there is no harm in letting folk disbelieve in the hadith. If that is what they want the better not waste your energy in preventing them. Sadly enough similar phenomenon are occuring world wide this Ramadan. While true in belief is getting stronger and stronger in certainty.

Assalamu Alaikum rvq

Further to what has been mentioned by Br. Ahmed,

format_quote Originally Posted by Companion

We shall now look at the following, by the will of Allah:

You are proceeding on to another topic to espouse further erroneous views though you have neglected entirely my detailed refutation of your last claims. Am I to take your silence on those issues as an acknowledgement of defeat on your part? If not, I would like to see your response to my refutation before moving on to new claims.

Anybody who picks up the Qur'an and reads this Surah, with an unprejudiced mind

Now this is rather amusing. You encourage anyone to just pick up the Qur'an and give tafseer - it seems when you said 'unprejudiced mind' you really were referring to an 'uneducated mind'!!

One with an unprejudiced mind [read: UNEDUCATED mind!] would imagine [The hadith-rejectors substitute the directives of the Prophet for imagination!!!] how these verses could be taken to refer to anything other then the Qur’an. However we shall add further to our argument.

As it stands there is no argument, only unsubstantiated assertions. You attempt to restrict the generality of the statment using neither internal nor external evidence, but only your 'imagination'. I'm afraid your 'imagination' falls short under the standard of objectivity.

The Prophet Muhammad was a messenger as well as a human. We cannot say everything he said was ‘wahi’ (divine inspiration), since he made mistakes as a human being. We find the following in the Qur’an, where the Prophet is admonished for his dealings with those who were reluctant to struggle for Allah’s cause

This doubt is actually incinerated in Ma'âriful-Qur'ân, which I quote as follows:

The Holy Prophet's Words are a Revelation from Allah

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى

{And he does not speak of [his own] desire. It is not but revelation revealed to [to him]...53:3-4}

The verses tell us that it is absolutely impossible for the Messenger [saws] to forge lies and impute them to Allah. Nothing he utters is of his own wish or desire. He only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey in its entirety, without additions or deletions. An analysis of the various Traditions in Bukhârî indicates that there are many categories or types of wahy [inspiration or revelation]. Type one is that in which the wordings and the meaning are both directly from Allah. This is called Qur'ân. Type two is the one in which only the meaning comes from Allah, and the Messenger [saws] expresses the meaning in his own words. This is called Hadîth or Sunnah [Tradition]. The subject of Hadîth, which comes from Allah, sometimes lays does injunctions or rules of conduct in clear and express terms, and at other times it establishes a general principle from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd or analogy, and promulgates them. In this there does exist the possibility of mistake of judgement. But it is the characteristic of the Messenger [saws] and other Prophets [as] that if they commit any error of judgement, Allah sends down a revelation to amend it, so that they do not unwittingly persist in their mistaken ijtihâd. Unlike other scholars of ijtihâd, who can persist in their erroneous conclusions. However, their error is not only forgiven, but they also recieve one reward for exerting their utmost effort in comprehending the rule of religion to the fullest extent, as authentic and well-known Traditions bear testimony to this fact.

The foregoing discussion also allays the following doubt: It seems according to the above verses, that the Messenger [saws] does not speak of his own desire, but whatever he conveys to the people is a revelation from Allah. It follows from this that he does not exercise independent reasoning in any matter whatsoever, whereas authentic Traditions show otherwise. There are incidents recorded that at the beginning, he promulgated one law, but later on, revelation descended and the law was changed. This is an indication that the earlier law was not the law of Allah, but it was based on his ijtihâd. The foregoing paragraph already responded to this objection: the second type of revelation establishes a general principle of law from which the Messenger [saws] derives laws on the basis of ijtihâd, and promulgates them. Because the general principle has descended from Allah, all the laws are said to be the revelation from Allah. Allah knows best! (Shafy, vol. 8, pp. 202-203)

And the above Qur’anic verse would not have gone against the Prophet’s speech.

Actually, it is your view that expressly contradicts the Qur'an which states that the Prophet saws never speaks in accordance with his own desire, yet you insist that he has spoken from his own desire. This doubt is refuted in what has preceded from Ma'âriful-Qur'ân.

The following verse prooves to us that the 'wahi' is the Qur'an:

Again, fallacious reasoning at its climax! The use of 'wahi' to refer to the Qur'an does not in any way prove that it refers exclusively to the Qur'an. We know that Allah swt uses the word 'wahy' to refer to all types of divine inspiration in the Qur'an.

Again, I encourage you to heed my advice in my last post.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

It is not against our agreement.
Unfortunately for you, since you reject Ahâdîth, you lack any objective criterion as to what constitutes the 'correct' understanding' and what does not; it is no more than your thoughts since you yourself concede that you lack even a basic understanding of Mustalah Al-Hadith.
This ludicrous notion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an is annihilated by SEVERAL verses in the Qur'an which use Dhikr to refer to many other revelations beside the Qur'an. Only one counterexample is necessary to refute such an assertion:
21:48 And We had already given Moses and Aaron the criterion and a light and a DHIKR for the righteous.

There are many other verses which refute the claim that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an such as 77:5, 21:105, 18:70, 21:7, etc. etc. All of this DEMOLISHES your ridiculous assertion that Dhikr refers exclusively to the Qur'an. Thus, you have no argument whatsoever against the use of Dhikr to encompass all of Allah's revelation, whether wahy matluw or ghayr matluw.
This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy we call petitio principii or circular reasoning. You project your presupposed interpretation onto the verse and then cite it as evidence for that very same interpretation! Many of the references you cite are indeed references to the Qur'an. But it is inherently fallacious to evince from such a premise that the reference is exclusive to the Qur'an.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

No, you can tell because you are making up your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing here, as you did to the word "zikr" and Br. Ansar annihalated your fallacy:

No word is there that indicates that is exclusively referring to the Quran. Do you not understand the translation?

I did not say all the 'zikrs' mentioned in the Qur'an is used to refer only to the Qur'an. I was saying how the word (zikr) used in the verse that was under discussion [16:44], was used to refer solely ("exclusively") to the Qur'an (and not to hadith or anything else). I then quoted verses from elsewhere in the Qur'an where 'zikr' has been used to refer to the Qur'an to prove that 'zikr' has indeed been used elsewhere to refer to the Qur'an. Both Ansar-al-Adl and Ahmed clearly misintepreted my post.

format_quote Originally Posted by aleefwaw

Firstly it is not right to claim to follow the Quran, while rejecting sunnah of Rasoolulah (saw), because the Quran directly commands this, in Surah Aal-Imran (3) verses: 31,32,132.
Also refer to verse 164 of the same Surah (3), Surah al-Ahzab (33) verses: 45,46,21 as well as Surah al-Anbiyah (21) verse: 107. And Surah al-Jumu'ah (62) verse: 2.
Furthermore the Quran isn't something to pick and choose from, taking bits which you like and rejecting others: Surah al-Baqarah (2) verse: 85.

I agree!

I just can not seem to become able to manifest belief that any person whom claims to believe only a portion of all of ahadith (Qur'an included) and not all of. Surely if you can believe that Mohammed received any voice of Allah that He could not have spoken out of turn in His Prophethood.

It is well recorded that He physically could not but speak in Allah.

If we are in Allah we receive evidence of this.

Can it be that there are persons whom focus their prayer upon specific sections of all of ahadith and delay learning other sections so well: because that way I can sustain belief in those persons being believers.

I am scared by how much ahadith has got seperated into little iddy biddy pieces even, little own taking one sentence at a time. The whole clearly has depth of meaning that small portions can misrepresent unless we take our belief in Allah seriously.

Truly then let Peace and Allah's Blessing be with Mohammed by Gracing him with honouring our memory of His work.

Why not just be a non-believer if you can not accept full ahadith?

Assalamu Alaikum rvq