As 2:216 says, the Muslims do not like that part in their religion, same as those before them. It makes religion very hard and not easy like the other religions, So if I offer any supplemental proof, of course the first instinct is to reject it and discredit me.
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You make a lot of assumptions. But it’s still not clear what point you are actually trying to make by referencing different verses about warfare. You make vague statements about making ‘black-and-white into gray’ but I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean.
This is your interpretation of what struggle means. Trying to help make change in the world or how one should approach politics is a vast issue with many avenues that one can use, not limited to one option. But you haven’t responded to my request - you haven’t brought any evidence to show how partaking in world politics carries more weight than fulfilling the 5 pillars or how it’s a condition for prayers to be accepted.
Struggle is not warfare. It
Do you think a better definition of “jihad” is the “lesser jihad”??? That’s basically in LITERALLY ALL the other religions?? What a laughable and terrible definition.
Black-and-white means the struggle is required in Islam. It says it clear as day 2:216 and the other places. There is hard proof for you. Give me any proof you have that it’s now ok to disregard all of those clear ayat and examples. I’ll wait.
If I’m dancing around the bush, it’s only so posts don’t make an FBI watchlist
. I can’t be more clear that I reject terrorism in all forms 100%.
Unlike Umit, you have launched all sorts of assumptions at me, that’s I’m clueless about Islam expect a couple books that I read.
.
As for your request, I did absolutely show you very solid evidence about prayers not being accepted without accepting struggle. You chose to disregard them and that’s fine. I think the Tabuk incident, on top of the clear ayats I mentioned, make it plain that you can’t eliminate the struggle from religion. As if said, point me out anything in the Quran that contradicts it.
If you just want to understand it without any religious proof like I gave you. Just search your heart for truth. There is nothing that makes what you do at a mosque better than what they do at a church. You both share the same objective, to save your soul. Your prayers, they are for the sake of your own soul to get into heaven. Your charity, all your good deeds, it’s not like you’re risking your life for those things, maybe sacrificing a family vacation at most. All the bake sales, sermons, stuff for kids/families, I promise you that you can find it at church too.
Now we will get into Quran interpretation that’s less plain to “prove” my point.
22:34- “for every nation we appointed acts of devotion that they might mention the name of Allah”… it’s basically supposed to convey Islam has the acts of devotion like the other religions, but Islam isn’t empty behind those acts. There’s genuine sacrifice required and not just lip service.
22:37- “not their flesh, nor their blood, reaches Allah, but to Him is acceptable observance of duty on your part”… its again pointing out that acts of devotion in the mosque should not just be empty like they are at church. You can’t just say things like, “I’d trade my life in this world for the next” and not need proof.
These verses lead directly into the subject of flighting in 22:38 and beyond and to me, imo with the other verses I have given you, clearly shows what true sacrifice is required in Islam and why.
As I’ve said here, do you understand if you were to take on the duty of protector of the Congo, do you realize your life and religion becomes objectively something much more selfless and meaningful? As I told you, who are a country’s heroes? Their military? Bc they are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country. But every country thinks they are #1. Something more beautiful and selfless than this to God is obviously the one who would be willing to risk their life for the weakest on Earth.
ISLAM FACTS- you don’t know what will happen to you when you face Allah. None of us do. You can your opinion, I can have mine. As I told you once, I’m sure you know the Hadith of the Ansar from Medina in Uhud battle that never said a single prayer or other 5 Pillar item. He decided to risk his life for an inclination to Islam and Mohammed said he had a very good place in Paradise. Personally, I would take that man’s fate over anyone today.
So why would Allah love him so much? Because everything that’s important to someone today. They love their religion but 30 years of memories. Marriage/weddings, kids, grandkids, family events, the mosque, Eid’s, etc. That man in Uhud was willing to risk all of that for something bigger than himself. His soul was therefore more beautiful to Allah. It’s the same principle as military but to Allah, they are protectors of the weak.
Struggle is not warfare. I have been clear I see it as advancing the cause under difficult conditions. As you know, Mohammed advanced his cause through war, treaties, trade deals, alliances, etc. He was willing to make alliances with Jews he knew that were no good. Almost all of the Prophets, faced the conditions Mohammed did. This message they came with our their life in danger. That’s the struggle. To risk all your time on this earth for something bigger than yourself. This same broad spectrum of struggle is found in the sorry of all the Prophets.
Do you think a better definition of “jihad” is the “lesser jihad”??? That’s basically in LITERALLY ALL the other religions?? What a laughable and terrible definition.
Black-and-white means the struggle is required in Islam. It says it clear as day 2:216 and the other places. There is hard proof for you. Give me any proof you have that it’s now ok to disregard all of those clear ayat and examples. I’ll wait.
If I’m dancing around the bush, it’s only so posts don’t make an FBI watchlist
. I can’t be more clear that I reject terrorism in all forms 100%. Unlike Umit, you have launched all sorts of assumptions at me, that’s I’m clueless about Islam expect a couple books that I read.
.As for your request, I did absolutely show you very solid evidence about prayers not being accepted without accepting struggle. You chose to disregard them and that’s fine. I think the Tabuk incident, on top of the clear ayats I mentioned, make it plain that you can’t eliminate the struggle from religion. As if said, point me out anything in the Quran that contradicts it.
If you just want to understand it without any religious proof like I gave you. Just search your heart for truth. There is nothing that makes what you do at a mosque better than what they do at a church. You both share the same objective, to save your soul. Your prayers, they are for the sake of your own soul to get into heaven. Your charity, all your good deeds, it’s not like you’re risking your life for those things, maybe sacrificing a family vacation at most. All the bake sales, sermons, stuff for kids/families, I promise you that you can find it at church too.
Now we will get into Quran interpretation that’s less plain to “prove” my point.
22:34- “for every nation we appointed acts of devotion that they might mention the name of Allah”… it’s basically supposed to convey Islam has the acts of devotion like the other religions, but Islam isn’t empty behind those acts. There’s genuine sacrifice required and not just lip service.
22:37- “not their flesh, nor their blood, reaches Allah, but to Him is acceptable observance of duty on your part”… its again pointing out that acts of devotion in the mosque should not just be empty like they are at church. You can’t just say things like, “I’d trade my life in this world for the next” and not need proof.
These verses lead directly into the subject of flighting in 22:38 and beyond and to me, imo with the other verses I have given you, clearly shows what true sacrifice is required in Islam and why.
As I’ve said here, do you understand if you were to take on the duty of protector of the Congo, do you realize your life and religion becomes objectively something much more selfless and meaningful? As I told you, who are a country’s heroes? Their military? Bc they are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country. But every country thinks they are #1. Something more beautiful and selfless than this to God is obviously the one who would be willing to risk their life for the weakest on Earth.
ISLAM FACTS- you don’t know what will happen to you when you face Allah. None of us do. You can your opinion, I can have mine. As I told you once, I’m sure you know the Hadith of the Ansar from Medina in Uhud battle that never said a single prayer or other 5 Pillar item. He decided to risk his life for an inclination to Islam and Mohammed said he had a very good place in Paradise. Personally, I would take that man’s fate over anyone today.
So why would Allah love him so much? Because everything that’s important to someone today. They love their religion but 30 years of memories. Marriage/weddings, kids, grandkids, family events, the mosque, Eid’s, etc. That man in Uhud was willing to risk all of that for something bigger than himself. His soul was therefore more beautiful to Allah. It’s the same principle as military but to Allah, they are protectors of the weak.
I may chip away at the 25% after all, now I am a bit inspired to read the Quran. It’s been like 6 years at least . I had a very strong knowledge of it and still know the Surah to go to and such to prove points. Like #22 and general area and I just had to flip around a few pages
. I had a very strong knowledge of it and still know the Surah to go to and such to prove points. Like #22 and general area and I just had to flip around a few pagesOk and I also needed to cheat on Google to locate a verse. 2:177- “It’s not righteousness that you turn faces towards the East and West”..
Which begins again as a warning of not going astray as the earlier religions did by making their acts of devotion their objective. Later in the verse, it says. “And the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict” which points to a greater sacrifice that will be asked on the Muslims later.
This really isn’t any big proof of anything but it’s another verse that stuck with me. That completes my reply
Which begins again as a warning of not going astray as the earlier religions did by making their acts of devotion their objective. Later in the verse, it says. “And the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict” which points to a greater sacrifice that will be asked on the Muslims later.
This really isn’t any big proof of anything but it’s another verse that stuck with me. That completes my reply
Well it didn't throw off anyone so far.
Why? Allah doesn't need no proof. He is Allknowing. He just makes your eyes, ears, tongue, hands and feet as witnesses against you. there is no need for proof.
then, I still do not know why you make a difference between this particular sin, and every other sin that is forbidden in the Quran. Why is your focus on this particular sin exceptional?
Besides, you are not getting punished for things that did not happen.
Just like your driving test...if you are terrible in parallel parking...but during your driving test, the parallel parking part is not tested, then you are lucky.
Allah doesn't burden anyone more than he can take. So if it is certain that you will leave Islam or fail miserably if you are tested with Jihad, then you will probably not be tested with that.
Then one other thing:
not participating in Jihad, makes you a sinner, but it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.
a bit of an exageration.
No. nobody has certainty. we all know that. No one gets into Jannah pure because of his own acts and deeds. We need Allahs mercy to enter Jannah.
Ow and I still have no clear answer why the example with your kid was not a good comparison. Could you answer that one also please?
Some sins are sins because of their addiction, so not always redeemable.
How do you know? It doesn't make you a kafir. Those 3 muslims were just boycotted...they remained muslim however.
Please provide evidence for this.
evidence?
I need evidence that the prayers are not accepted if you reject to participate in war.
You cannot be guilty of something you are not capable of.Sorry, I was not clear of Mohammed’s story being a copy of previous Prophets. This is actually a case of that 75% shining through. Side note, if I get a Muslim wife I think it’ll cut into that other 25% for sure, inshallah. Not 100% but closer
Let me tell you the genuine truth from the bottom of my heart. I get SO ANGRY in my heart for God’s sake when at the leaders of the Muslims today when their religion and God are getting publicly ridiculed as deficient, say, “No. Our God is just like your God/Religion (Jesus)”. Like there’s something wrong with the God in Quran/Bible. I really think it’s something very shameful and hurtful for God and I really lose all respect for the Muslim establishment because of that and so I openly question their belief for that reason. Can you imagine standing before God and being guilty of not being able to defend him and his religion on Earth???
you can be held accountable for not educating yourself to a level to practice and understanding your religion properly...
but that is it.
Why is that? Because the prophets were sent to society's who wandered off the right path of Allah....so of course they are going to reject the message.
“Why? Allah doesn't need no proof. He is Allknowing. He just makes your eyes, ears, tongue, hands and feet as witnesses against you. there is no need for proof.”
The proof is look around the world and see the situation in Palestine and everywhere else. I can answer the question for you. God isn’t needed here. I’m no better, so I’m not judging.
“Then one other thing:
not participating in Jihad, makes you a sinner, but it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.”
I gave you guys a bunch of Quranic proof saying otherwise, you’re basically sharing your feelings on how you think God views it.
Ow and I still have no clear answer why the example with your kid was not a good comparison. Could you answer that one also please?
We see it different. Basically you take the position that God is all knowing and doesn’t require proofs of things you believe to be true about yourself.
Please provide evidence for this.
It’s almost comical at this point. I gave you guys a bunch of clear evidence. You have absolutely nothing in the Quran to counter it with, just your feelings on the matter. There’s literally an ayat telling you point blank it’s required, even if you don’t like it. There’s multiple verses calling out those weak in faith and pointing out why it’s needed. There’s the case of 3 Sincere Muslims that shows to anyone with sense that their 5 Pillar deeds did not excuse them from abandoning the Tabuk campaign and they were excommunicated until they accepted their mistake and didn’t repeat it.
Honestly, I find this matter to be something similar to homosexuality in Christianity where the Bible is clear but people don’t think God should be like that and so they spin it around as much as they can to change God’s feelings on it.
The bottom line is, people think they have made God more beautiful today by making him a God of peace and love. I feel it’s the opposite. As I’ve said a number of times and I guess I will one last time, look at the situation in Palestine and other places. Islam is in absolute shambles and not any more meaningful in this world than Christianity. It’s extremely easy to understand why that is if someone is able to face the truth.
…
Anyways, Umit, I think we have reached the point in the debate when both sides have presented their case and it would be like spinning our wheels continuing discussing it. We will just always just see this matter differently. It was sincerely a pleasure though and if we debate any topics in the future, I will not forget to show you respect that I often don’t show in internet debates.
Have a good week, my friend.
The proof is look around the world and see the situation in Palestine and everywhere else. I can answer the question for you. God isn’t needed here. I’m no better, so I’m not judging.
“Then one other thing:
not participating in Jihad, makes you a sinner, but it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.”
I gave you guys a bunch of Quranic proof saying otherwise, you’re basically sharing your feelings on how you think God views it.
Ow and I still have no clear answer why the example with your kid was not a good comparison. Could you answer that one also please?
We see it different. Basically you take the position that God is all knowing and doesn’t require proofs of things you believe to be true about yourself.
Please provide evidence for this.
It’s almost comical at this point. I gave you guys a bunch of clear evidence. You have absolutely nothing in the Quran to counter it with, just your feelings on the matter. There’s literally an ayat telling you point blank it’s required, even if you don’t like it. There’s multiple verses calling out those weak in faith and pointing out why it’s needed. There’s the case of 3 Sincere Muslims that shows to anyone with sense that their 5 Pillar deeds did not excuse them from abandoning the Tabuk campaign and they were excommunicated until they accepted their mistake and didn’t repeat it.
Honestly, I find this matter to be something similar to homosexuality in Christianity where the Bible is clear but people don’t think God should be like that and so they spin it around as much as they can to change God’s feelings on it.
The bottom line is, people think they have made God more beautiful today by making him a God of peace and love. I feel it’s the opposite. As I’ve said a number of times and I guess I will one last time, look at the situation in Palestine and other places. Islam is in absolute shambles and not any more meaningful in this world than Christianity. It’s extremely easy to understand why that is if someone is able to face the truth.
…
Anyways, Umit, I think we have reached the point in the debate when both sides have presented their case and it would be like spinning our wheels continuing discussing it. We will just always just see this matter differently. It was sincerely a pleasure though and if we debate any topics in the future, I will not forget to show you respect that I often don’t show in internet debates
.Have a good week, my friend.
Actually, sorry Umit, I can offer a better clarification on the son matter. The difference with the son is that you won’t know if you’d sacrifice your life for him until the opportunity presented itself. The difference in Islam, is there are people that are suffering today that are crying out for a protector. You’re ignoring those cries, so objectively, no, it’s clear that you are not willing to trade this life for the next. It’s really not something you could debate very well. Again, not judging as I’m no better. I’m just honest with myself.
Also, I hate the word jihad too. It makes me cringe. It immediately makes people think of flying planes into buildings. It makes any discussion like we’re having very hard. It makes people want to ignore all the stuff I mentioned in the Quran. It’s very sad for Islam that the word has been maybe forever ruined and misunderstood.
Muhammad,
I would still like a last word with you, sir.
All in the spirit of good debate, my friend.
You directly challenged me 2x to give Quranic reasonings for my beliefs and I did so. The gloves are now off
Now I would like to turn this on you and I ask that you provide my with Quranic reasoning as to why you believe you are free to abrogate those decisive ayats in the Quran? Show me your proof on this, or at least the ayats that you lean on to make it ok to leave this requirement in Islam out of religion today?
I would still like a last word with you, sir
.All in the spirit of good debate, my friend.
You directly challenged me 2x to give Quranic reasonings for my beliefs and I did so. The gloves are now off
Now I would like to turn this on you and I ask that you provide my with Quranic reasoning as to why you believe you are free to abrogate those decisive ayats in the Quran? Show me your proof on this, or at least the ayats that you lean on to make it ok to leave this requirement in Islam out of religion today?
Last point for you to counter, Muhammad.
Do you disagree with my assertion of facts that the God/Message all the Prophets came with infused politics/political action into religion? That the purpose and path the Prophets/followers were given included a very specific duty to be a guardian of the weak against oppressors as part of their religious duties?
Do you disagree with my assertion that all of this is no longer required in “mainstream practice” when you go into a mosque today?
Would you therefore disagree if I were to assert that the religion you would learn in a mosque today is different than the religion you would learn at the mosque if Mohammed and the Companions were on Earth today?
I’ve tried to address your questions, so give me some direct answers here please
Do you disagree with my assertion of facts that the God/Message all the Prophets came with infused politics/political action into religion? That the purpose and path the Prophets/followers were given included a very specific duty to be a guardian of the weak against oppressors as part of their religious duties?
Do you disagree with my assertion that all of this is no longer required in “mainstream practice” when you go into a mosque today?
Would you therefore disagree if I were to assert that the religion you would learn in a mosque today is different than the religion you would learn at the mosque if Mohammed and the Companions were on Earth today?
I’ve tried to address your questions, so give me some direct answers here please
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Hello Dpaul,
There are many different struggles in life; warfare is clearly one of them, but so is striving against one's own desires, etc. Limiting the concept of struggle to one particular type is in contradiction to what humans experience every day. The Prophets faced different kinds of struggles with their peoples; there was overlap in the types of struggles but there were unique differences too.
That wasn't the question though, was it. You claimed that 'never missing a single item of the 5 Pillars will not make up for this' (i.e. abandoning struggle). What you don't seem to have realised is that fulfilling the 5 pillars themselves requires struggle. Prayer requires discipline. Zakat requires sacrificing wealth. Fasting requires sacrificing one's desires. Hajj requires a combination of all of that. Why is risking one's life the only struggle that you see? Then you went on to mention that, 'the prayers aren’t even accepted when you’re not accepting the struggle.' Again, a statement that doesn't make sense because these two things are not mutually exclusive. The 'solid evidence' you bring is quoting verses about Jihad, yet the verses do not state those specific claims of yours. Basically, you are making stuff up and don't seem to know what you are talking about.
Again, in your mind you limit good deeds to one or two things, when Allah has allowed a diversity of acts of worship to get closer to Him. You would know this if you have read the Qur'an. Can you find the Qur'an at the church too? I didn't think so, and I think you're clever enough to know there's a pretty big difference between what goes on in the church and the Mosque.
So you admit you are attempting to interpret the Qur'an. It should be of little surprise that any personal interpretation you provide is not of interest here. Moreover, no one argues that sacrifice is not required or that acts of worship should not come from the heart, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove anyway.
How can a person not fulfil any of the 5 pillars and still be a Muslim?! Let us know which Hadith you have in mind and we can correct your understanding. It is also ironic for you to be speaking about sacrifice and doing things from the heart, then mention you want Paradise without having to do any of the 5 pillars i.e. other acts of worship requiring sacrifice.
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It doesn't work like that. You are the one making claims, so you are the one required to bring evidence. I am simply trying to understand your viewpoint and your so-called evidence - no denial or abrogation is involved. Making false accusations and using strawman arguments will not bolster your claims.
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Let’s not get ahead of ourselves : )If it’s easier, you can’t just explain how you don’t think I put you in checkmate
Is that your actual purpose here?If it’s easier, you can’t just explain how you don’t think I put you in checkmate
I was hoping you came here searching for answers...To clear things up...to discuss with us, things that don't sit right...But instead you came here to put people checkmate?