Politics and Islam

[Dpaul54]

As 2:216 says, the Muslims do not like that part in their religion, same as those before them. It makes religion very hard and not easy like the other religions, So if I offer any supplemental proof, of course the first instinct is to reject it and discredit me.

 

[Muhammad]

“The problem is that you are making up your own interpretation of a few verses or Hadith, without proper knowledge or understanding of them.”

No. Wrong. I am on better ground than you. Those incidents act as a supplement to 2:216 to make sure people don’t try to make black-and-white into gray. They are not the basis of my opinion on the matter.
You are ignoring that verse, plus verse 4:75, 9:38/39, 9:81 etc that specifically further call out Muslims that reject this duty as required in their faith.

So you are ignoring all those ayats and the 2 clear examples I gave and then telling me your opinion is better because it’s the accepted opinion today.

Is that an unfair claim for me to make?

You make a lot of assumptions. But it’s still not clear what point you are actually trying to make by referencing different verses about warfare. You make vague statements about making ‘black-and-white into gray’ but I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean.

It’s not hard to understand what struggle God requires in his religion, Mohammad. You just censored me. As I told you, you can go to the Congo now and open a mosque and be safe. No one wants to harm a man of God for no reason. You can do things there with charity and help that will make people all around the world adore you. But it’s all empty because in 30 years, the masses will suffer the same or worse than when you started.

This is your interpretation of what struggle means. Trying to help make change in the world or how one should approach politics is a vast issue with many avenues that one can use, not limited to one option. But you haven’t responded to my request - you haven’t brought any evidence to show how partaking in world politics carries more weight than fulfilling the 5 pillars or how it’s a condition for prayers to be accepted.

 

[Dpaul54]

Struggle is not warfare. It

You make a lot of assumptions. But it’s still not clear what point you are actually trying to make by referencing different verses about warfare. You make vague statements about making ‘black-and-white into gray’ but I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean.


This is your interpretation of what struggle means. Trying to help make change in the world or how one should approach politics is a vast issue with many avenues that one can use, not limited to one option. But you haven’t responded to my request - you haven’t brought any evidence to show how partaking in world politics carries more weight than fulfilling the 5 pillars or how it’s a condition for prayers to be accepted.

Struggle is not warfare. I have been clear I see it as advancing the cause under difficult conditions. As you know, Mohammed advanced his cause through war, treaties, trade deals, alliances, etc. He was willing to make alliances with Jews he knew that were no good. Almost all of the Prophets, faced the conditions Mohammed did. This message they came with our their life in danger. That’s the struggle. To risk all your time on this earth for something bigger than yourself. This same broad spectrum of struggle is found in the sorry of all the Prophets.

Do you think a better definition of “jihad” is the “lesser jihad”??? That’s basically in LITERALLY ALL the other religions?? What a laughable and terrible definition.

Black-and-white means the struggle is required in Islam. It says it clear as day 2:216 and the other places. There is hard proof for you. Give me any proof you have that it’s now ok to disregard all of those clear ayat and examples. I’ll wait.

If I’m dancing around the bush, it’s only so posts don’t make an FBI watchlist . I can’t be more clear that I reject terrorism in all forms 100%.

Unlike Umit, you have launched all sorts of assumptions at me, that’s I’m clueless about Islam expect a couple books that I read. .

As for your request, I did absolutely show you very solid evidence about prayers not being accepted without accepting struggle. You chose to disregard them and that’s fine. I think the Tabuk incident, on top of the clear ayats I mentioned, make it plain that you can’t eliminate the struggle from religion. As if said, point me out anything in the Quran that contradicts it.

If you just want to understand it without any religious proof like I gave you. Just search your heart for truth. There is nothing that makes what you do at a mosque better than what they do at a church. You both share the same objective, to save your soul. Your prayers, they are for the sake of your own soul to get into heaven. Your charity, all your good deeds, it’s not like you’re risking your life for those things, maybe sacrificing a family vacation at most. All the bake sales, sermons, stuff for kids/families, I promise you that you can find it at church too.

Now we will get into Quran interpretation that’s less plain to “prove” my point.

22:34- “for every nation we appointed acts of devotion that they might mention the name of Allah”… it’s basically supposed to convey Islam has the acts of devotion like the other religions, but Islam isn’t empty behind those acts. There’s genuine sacrifice required and not just lip service.

22:37- “not their flesh, nor their blood, reaches Allah, but to Him is acceptable observance of duty on your part”… its again pointing out that acts of devotion in the mosque should not just be empty like they are at church. You can’t just say things like, “I’d trade my life in this world for the next” and not need proof.

These verses lead directly into the subject of flighting in 22:38 and beyond and to me, imo with the other verses I have given you, clearly shows what true sacrifice is required in Islam and why.

As I’ve said here, do you understand if you were to take on the duty of protector of the Congo, do you realize your life and religion becomes objectively something much more selfless and meaningful? As I told you, who are a country’s heroes? Their military? Bc they are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country. But every country thinks they are #1. Something more beautiful and selfless than this to God is obviously the one who would be willing to risk their life for the weakest on Earth.

ISLAM FACTS- you don’t know what will happen to you when you face Allah. None of us do. You can your opinion, I can have mine. As I told you once, I’m sure you know the Hadith of the Ansar from Medina in Uhud battle that never said a single prayer or other 5 Pillar item. He decided to risk his life for an inclination to Islam and Mohammed said he had a very good place in Paradise. Personally, I would take that man’s fate over anyone today.

So why would Allah love him so much? Because everything that’s important to someone today. They love their religion but 30 years of memories. Marriage/weddings, kids, grandkids, family events, the mosque, Eid’s, etc. That man in Uhud was willing to risk all of that for something bigger than himself. His soul was therefore more beautiful to Allah. It’s the same principle as military but to Allah, they are protectors of the weak.

 

[Dpaul54]

I may chip away at the 25% after all, now I am a bit inspired to read the Quran. It’s been like 6 years at least . I had a very strong knowledge of it and still know the Surah to go to and such to prove points. Like #22 and general area and I just had to flip around a few pages

 

[Dpaul54]

Ok and I also needed to cheat on Google to locate a verse. 2:177- “It’s not righteousness that you turn faces towards the East and West”..

Which begins again as a warning of not going astray as the earlier religions did by making their acts of devotion their objective. Later in the verse, it says. “And the patient in distress and affliction and in the time of conflict” which points to a greater sacrifice that will be asked on the Muslims later.

This really isn’t any big proof of anything but it’s another verse that stuck with me. That completes my reply

 

[Ümit]

It’s actually very important to understand why your analogy about my son totally fails. I would guess (thought admittedly not know) that this is something that throws off a LOT of Muslims.

Well it didn't throw off anyone so far.

I’m just telling you Islam 101 that gets lost in the shuffle. You can’t just say things are true like the other religions. If you try to claim at the time of judgement that you were willing to trade this life for the next, the next question is what proof can you offer? This is going to cook just about everyone and I’m really not sure they understand that reality.

Why? Allah doesn't need no proof. He is Allknowing. He just makes your eyes, ears, tongue, hands and feet as witnesses against you. there is no need for proof.

then, I still do not know why you make a difference between this particular sin, and every other sin that is forbidden in the Quran. Why is your focus on this particular sin exceptional?

Besides, you are not getting punished for things that did not happen.
Just like your driving test...if you are terrible in parallel parking...but during your driving test, the parallel parking part is not tested, then you are lucky.
Allah doesn't burden anyone more than he can take. So if it is certain that you will leave Islam or fail miserably if you are tested with Jihad, then you will probably not be tested with that.

Then one other thing:
not participating in Jihad, makes you a sinner, but it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.

To me, I see it as Muslims building a religious foundation based on the beauty of their acts of devotion in this world like the other religions. Instead of a foundation of stone like the Prophets/followers had, it’s a castle of playing cards that’s pleasing to look at in this world, like it’s an accomplishment.

a bit of an exageration.

So when these Muslims get to God, they have their book in their right hand and they are feeling certain they have a great reward coming for what they did at the mosque.

No. nobody has certainty. we all know that. No one gets into Jannah pure because of his own acts and deeds. We need Allahs mercy to enter Jannah.

But God has a paper weight that’s the struggle he expected them to make like the Prophets/followers before them. When he places this on top of the castle of cards, it collapses to a useless pile of rubble and at that moment, the Muslim realizes his whole life/religion on Earth was a lie and he was blind to Islam in this world and his religion was like a Christians.

Now admittedly, I of course I do not know how this meeting will go. But I am saying, combined with all the other proofs I mentioned, it would not hurt to view this as a possibility. I think it’s wise to understand how bad things can go. It’s like when I run a business, you always expect the worst and hope for the best. Especially when you’re taking about your place in all of ETERNITY, all possibilities should be considered.

Ow and I still have no clear answer why the example with your kid was not a good comparison. Could you answer that one also please?

 

[Ümit]

There’s absolutely a very easy difference to understand. When you commit a sin, I would imagine you don’t keep doing it. You redeem yourself over time to balance out your scale.

Some sins are sins because of their addiction, so not always redeemable.

When you deny the struggle part, you’re essentially like those 3 Sincere Muslims but you never repent or see fault in yourself and you die while denying that part of your religion to the very end.

In my very clear understanding of what is written, never missing a single item of the 5 Pillars will not make up for this.

How do you know? It doesn't make you a kafir. Those 3 muslims were just boycotted...they remained muslim however.

Those good deeds would certainly make up for a lot of small sins but abandoning the struggle part. I’m really not sure how someone can say it’s not clear as day.

Please provide evidence for this.

I think there’s a real lack of reconciliation in the way Islam is taught today. It’s like the Hadith that says prayer is the most beloved thing to Allah but also as it states clearly in the Quran, the prayers aren’t even accepted when you’re not accepting the struggle.

evidence?

So it’s clear the prayer of someone that accepts the struggle is the thing he likes the most. Also, the Hadiths like I’ll do the 5 Pillars and nothing more and the person will go to heaven as a Muslim. But again, that violates Islam 101 as it directly contradicts what’s stated clearly in the Quran and so it really should be read like the previous Hadith example I gave. You can also pound away on all the Hadiths talking about all the rewards for all the items in the 5 Pillars but again, that doesn’t get to overrule what’s clearly stated in the Quran. It’s really easy to just get misled with an avalanche of Hadith talking about all the rewards for the acts of devotion but the Quran is clear. God knows best, I guess.

I need evidence that the prayers are not accepted if you reject to participate in war.

 

[Ümit]

Sorry, I was not clear of Mohammed’s story being a copy of previous Prophets. This is actually a case of that 75% shining through. Side note, if I get a Muslim wife I think it’ll cut into that other 25% for sure, inshallah. Not 100% but closer

Let me tell you the genuine truth from the bottom of my heart. I get SO ANGRY in my heart for God’s sake when at the leaders of the Muslims today when their religion and God are getting publicly ridiculed as deficient, say, “No. Our God is just like your God/Religion (Jesus)”. Like there’s something wrong with the God in Quran/Bible. I really think it’s something very shameful and hurtful for God and I really lose all respect for the Muslim establishment because of that and so I openly question their belief for that reason. Can you imagine standing before God and being guilty of not being able to defend him and his religion on Earth???

You cannot be guilty of something you are not capable of.
you can be held accountable for not educating yourself to a level to practice and understanding your religion properly...
but that is it.

There is ZERO different in the story of Mohammed/his followers than earlier Prophets. War is mentioned 400+ times in the Bible. Almost all Prophets were weak to start like Mohammed and their followers had to be subjected to the same struggles for the sake of their religion as Mohammed’s followers (tortured, starved, outcast)

Politics/Political action was infused with religion for ALL Prophets. It was always the way. The struggle the Prophets all faced was bc their message was rejected.

Why is that? Because the prophets were sent to society's who wandered off the right path of Allah....so of course they are going to reject the message.

[Moderator’s comment: content removed - when speaking about Prophets please have some respect]

So why do Muslim have to also take parts of their religion out or hide it when then teach it. Like on my sons life in hurts my soul for God to see it. Terrorists can’t win and take away all the beauty and truth in Islam.

Anyways, we’ll see if this makes in past the censors here. Probably not lol