The French hijab ban has deepened the isolation of the French Muslims.
PARIS — A French law banning hijab in state schools has deepened the Muslim isolation from the broader community, experts said Saturday, September 16.
"Some (Muslims) are enrolled in informal parallel structures. That makes them even more isolated from the broader community," said Samy Debah, spokesman for the anti-Islamophobia group CCIF, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
France has triggered a controversy in 2004 by adopting a bill banning hijab and religious insignia in state schools.
French Muslims — a sizeable six-million minority — along with practicing Jews, Sikhs and international human rights groups strongly condemned the law, saying it violated the freedom of religion right in secular France.
In the same year, some 30 girls under the age of 16 dropped out of the French school system altogether, said Nora Rami spokeswoman for a committee opposing the law.
She said the number, though is tiny compared to the hundreds o thousands of Muslims in French schools, has a major significance.
It illustrates a "break between some young Muslim women and a country where "they no longer feel at home," she said.
Other young Muslim women have also either left to study abroad, including in Belgium, or have signed up for distance learning courses, Rami added.
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, not a religious symbol displaying one’s affiliations.
Problems Deepened
Many French Muslims believe the French law would lead to a boom in private Muslim education in the coming decade.
"This hasn't solved the problem, it has just moved it elsewhere," said Makhlouf Mameche, deputy head of the private Lycee Averroes in the northern city of Lille, one of France's two sole Muslim high schools.
The French education ministry says the law has been largely accepted in the country, citing only four cases since the start of the school year this month, involving Sikh pupils who refused to remove their turbans.
The government says the figure -- a far cry from the 639 recorded in 2004, when 47 youths were expelled for refusing to comply with the ban -- is proof the measure is working.
But Hubert Tison, a teachers' representative, disagrees.
"It's true the law reduced tensions, but it has not solved the deeper problems" he told L'Express magazine recently.
Over the past decade, more and more French Muslims have increasingly adopted hijab, especially in run-down suburbs with large Arab and black populations.
Many, however, complain that they face hostile looks from strangers who associate their hijab with terrorism and extremism.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, not a religious symbol displaying one’s affiliations.
.. and exactly this is the point:
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, so, it is religious, no?
France live under rules made by a democracy, and democracy is nothing else, than laws voted by its citizens !
So it means, the majority of of its citizens voted against the wearing of Hijab. But, you should also mention all other details: France also forbid Jews to wear Kippa, same as for Christians to wear a Cross Symbol.
So, it is a fair and balanced law, good for all cultures and religions. No favoritism.
I find this a good idea, and should be also applied in all other countries !
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, so, it is religious, no?
France live under rules made by a democracy, and democracy is nothing else, than laws voted by its citizens !
So it means, the majority of of its citizens voted against the wearing of Hijab. But, you should also mention all other details: France also forbid Jews to wear Kippa, same as for Christians to wear a Cross Symbol.
So, it is a fair and balanced law, good for all cultures and religions. No favoritism.
I find this a good idea, and should be also applied in all other countries !
Fair is fair. Whining by muslims, jews, or christians should not be tolerated. No hijab? Too bad. Stop your whining.
No, its not fair, the impact on Muslim women is much greater, becuase hijab is not a symbol.
How easy is it to conceal a cross on a neck lace? just slip it under your shirt! And is it even compulsory to wear a cross??
Fair enough, its harsher on jewish men as well becuase i think (though not sure), that the skull cap is also compulsory and cannot be hidden (although i think all they need is something on their head so even a baseball cap can suffice although im not sure about this).
You two are so blinded by your concepts of "fairness" that you cant see oppression when its hits you in the face!
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Whining by muslims, jews, or christians should not be tolerated.
I thought France was a democracy? What happened to FREEDOM OF SPEECH!?
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, so, it is religious, no?
France live under rules made by a democracy, and democracy is nothing else, than laws voted by its citizens !
So it means, the majority of of its citizens voted against the wearing of Hijab. But, you should also mention all other details: France also forbid Jews to wear Kippa, same as for Christians to wear a Cross Symbol.
So, it is a fair and balanced law, good for all cultures and religions. No favoritism.
The fact it may balanced doesn't make it fair, or a good law. Neither does your argument on democracy - what is happening here is what John Stuart Mill called the "tyranny of the majority".
I can't really do better than quote the man himself;
Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs as protection against political despotism. From the introduction to On Liberty
The law is an attack on personal freedom. Such an attack is only justified when what is being attacked is something that if not restrained will cause demonstrable and genuine harm to the rest of society that outweighs the restriction on personal liberty involved. I have seen no evidence whatsoever suggesting wearing the hijab, or indeed that anything else someone chooses to wear, for religious or any other reason, provides such justification. "Tyranny of the majority" is not a problem - IF you happen to be part of that majority. Sooner or later, you won't be. Simply put, why should the "majority of citizens", who have no desire to wear a hijab, have a say in whether those who do want to should be allowed to?
Ok, let me see the problem from a different point of view:
What happen, when a western woman come to a muslim country and has to go on public street ? She must cover her face, right? Well, where is this so-called freedom?
Well, I just repeat my words: It is a good law, and it should become world wide ! No favoritism !
Look, even USA made a step in this direction (at least in different parts): They ban already every sign of national pride (no matter what country) out of the schools.
Last edited by guyabano; 09-17-2006 at 11:07 AM.
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
What happen, when a western woman come to a muslim country and has to go on public street ? She must cover her face, right? Well, where is this so-called freedom?
First of all, I already brought this up but you didn't answer.
Secondly, not every Muslim country has this law.
Thirdly, if you aren't a hypocrite, you shouldn't have a problem with Muslim countries having this law. If you feel there's no freedom in forcing women to cover themselves up, how can you on the other hand feel it doesn't violate anyone's freedom to force women to take of clothing they've chosen to wear?
Islam sees hijab as an obligatory code of dress, so, it is religious, no?
!
Islam is a way of life not merely a religion to be practiced at one's convenience. If christian only see the inside of a church when they get married in one or on the odd Sunday then that's their wish. But for muslims Islam is the code by which we live on a daily basis. By banning Hijab France has not taken away religious insignia, it has taken away our way of life.
Ok, let me see the problem from a different point of view:
What happen, when a western woman come to a muslim country and has to go on public street ? She must cover her face, right? Well, where is this so-called freedom?
Well, I just repeat my words: It is a good law, and it should become world wide ! No favoritism !
Look, even USA made a step in this direction (at least in different parts): They ban already every sign of national pride (no matter what country) out of the schools.
^ actually that's not the point we're trying to make, we're trying to show the contradiction within your own law... you say u got freedom, well where is it?
Your laws are nto consistant, that's the problem, in any Islamic country you go to, the laws are the same, and they just don't change. In your case, one day you could be looked at as a twit for doing something, and the next day that same action is a symbol of pride.
And the next question is, why is it a good law? so you can perve at more girls n pump up the rape stats? ffended:
What happen, when a western woman come to a muslim country and has to go on public street ? She must cover her face, right?
Wrong, or at least its wrong in the several I have visited. It is wise for women to dress "modestly" if only to avoid possible offence and arrest (the exact same reason 'naturists' don't tend stroll through New York or Paris with no clothes on! - all things are relative), but there is no requirement for foreigners to wear the hijab.
Well, where is this so-called freedom?
I not approve of muslim women anywhere being 'forced' to wear the hijab by "the tyranny of the majority" any more than I approve of them being prevented from wearing it. However, just because a wrong may happen in one place is no reason to justify replicating that wrong elsewhere, particularly under the guise that it is somehow "fair" or "democratic".
I not approve of muslim women anywhere being 'forced' to wear the hijab by "the tyranny of the majority" any more than I approve of them being prevented from wearing it. However, just because a wrong may happen in one place is no reason to justify replicating that wrong elsewhere, particularly under the guise that it is somehow "fair" or "democratic".
Exactly. It's just as wrong to force women not to wear it as it is to force them to wear it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Fair is fair. Whining by muslims, jews, or christians should not be tolerated. No hijab? Too bad. Stop your whining.
^ actually i think in Islamic state women are to wear Hijab... just like in west women cant be 100% naked... (even tho its hard to say that some of them are dressed lol), in Islamic state women are to maintain a level of decency which includes wearing Hijab.
just liek the way men are obliged to keep a beard (the muslim ones of them).
^ actually i think in Islamic state women are to wear Hijab... just like in west women cant be 100% naked... (even tho its hard to say that some of them are dressed lol), in Islamic state women are to maintain a level of decency which includes wearing Hijab.
There's a big difference between "Islamic state" (how many of those are there?) and "muslim country". Even then, there would be a big difference between whether just muslim women were required to were the hijab (or, I suppose, burkha if you take it to the extreme), whether all female citizens were, or whether all women including foreigners were.
^ b4 we talk about specifics of hijab... first lets worry about the fact that non exist
bak2topic.. issue isnt whether the rule says ur allowed 2 wear hijab or not.. its abotu the crazy amount of inconsistency and contradiction present within the laws!
Of course all women should wear it in an Islamic state, when you consider that the purpose is to prevent corruption in the society by preventing relationships outside of marriage, rape etc and helping people lower their gaze, as if it matters to men who are trying to lower thier gaze if the half naked women are muslim or not!
^ b4 we talk about specifics of hijab... first lets worry about the fact that non exist
so you can perve at more girls n pump up the rape stats?
I consider that as an insult and I will go out now an burn flags ! Anyway, common in some countries as soon as they feel offended or get the feeling to be insulted, no?
When I go to school, I want to focus on my studies, and not on religious symbols, neither sit beside a person who is covered by a tent, neither hiding behind a scarf, nor wearing a big wooden cross, or whatever.
That's why it is called a SCHOOL. Once I go to a church, or Mosque or Synagogue, then I can show off my religious beliefs.
You speak about the freedom to wear the hijab, well , did you never ask yourself the question, how many people feel offended by that? Believe me, there are more than would admit it !
Look f. example a shop: When the owner of the shop doesn't like you, he can refuse you to enter. Even he will not provide you only one single reason. the fact, he dislike your face can be reason enough.
Now, in a country with a democracy, it can be the same: When most people dislike the wear of the hajib, well it will be forbidden. Like it or not, it's a fact.
It is not a minority, who will be able to reverse that, even with burning flags or silly boycotts about local products. So if you are wise, you will stand over it and focus on your studies.
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
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ffended: looks like ur only free2do what you want if what you wanna do is what they like.
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