11 Year Old Gives Birth

[Supreme]

Wow what a perfect little systemite, you have all your politically correct ducks in a row, and full of lies too. It is Impossible for children to have babies only women can! Shame you are not a Christian are you? You sound like some kind of commie pommie. A real Christian would not antagonize the truth. I don't need an Antichrist commie picking on me. Don't speak to me or about me ever again, Supreme. I'm sick of your commie politically correct crap.

No, that was the supposed to be the post where you say 'I abhore any child having sexual intercourse, it's wrong!'

I could also do with you not attempting to define what a 'real' Christian is or the stupid commie insults!

 

[Muslim Woman]

I request mod to delete all off topic comments posted in the thread. Thanks.

 

[MSalman]

putting aside the rape part

That's just the thing though- she isn't a 'woman', not in any sense of the word.

define adulthood for us please?

She is a girl. A child.

according to who? And how did a child girl get pregnant in the first place?

I'm not sure about you, but in my opinion, children should not have sexual intercourse- it is morally, ethically, scientifically, and psychologically wrong. And anyone who thinks that having sex with children is fine and the 'norm' is, in my opinion, no better than a peadophile themselves.

you got a very nice logic going on here.

Premise A: According to me a person under age X is a child. And this holds because I said so.
Premise B: I am going to assume that everyone has to judge whether someone is adult or child according to my first premise
Premise C: Sex with a child is unethical
Conclusion: Hence, sex with child under age X is unethical; therefore, whoever disagrees is supporting child molestation and they are pedophile.

1 - No one said that sex with a child is NOT ethically wrong. So that point is very much irrelevant and straw man attack.

2 - The world doesn't surround you that we have to follow your definition of whether someone is still a child.

3 - If 11 years old is still a child then I wonder why did your man-god made Marry (peace be upon her) give birth to your man-god when she was only 12 years old (a child according to you)? Why did your man-god made her go through such hardship?

 

[aadil77]

3 - If 11 years old is still a child then I wonder why did your man-god made Marry (peace be upon her) give birth to your man-god when she was only 12 years old (a child according to you)? Why did your man-god made her go through such hardship?

Bro can you or someone else please provide islamic evidence for that statement, I asked bro Karl but he didn't reply

 

[MSalman]

^bro, there is no Islamic evidence per say but there are historical evidences for that.

 

[Supreme]

define adulthood for us please?

Yep, the state of becoming completely developed, both sexually and physically. Most cultures recognize this to be 15-21, some even as young as 13, but I don't know of any culture that says 11.

according to who? And how did a child girl get pregnant in the first place?

According to law and the majority of people. And I'm not going to explain the birds and the bees to you. If you want to know how someone gets pregnant, maybe Wikipedia is your safest bet!

1 - No one said that sex with a child is NOT ethically wrong. So that point is very much irrelevant and straw man attack.

Karl implied it, when he said she wasn't raped and that as long as she's not murdered, it's not a crime!

2 - The world doesn't surround you that we have to follow your definition of whether someone is still a child.

Can you name me a single culture that doesn't think that people who are 11 are children? Anywhere where 11 year olds are considered adults? I think you'll find the world is pretty much unanimous in that respect.

3 - If 11 years old is still a child then I wonder why did your man-god made Marry (peace be upon her) give birth to your man-god when she was only 12 years old (a child according to you)? Why did your man-god made her go through such hardship?

I don't know what sources you got this nonsense that the Virgin Mary was 12 when she gave birth to Jesus from, although knowing you it was most likely a half baked 'fact' you invented on the spot!

 

[Karina]

11 Year Old Gives Birth

February 5, 2010 by saf

11 Year Old Gives Birth is the headline of all newspapers and tabloids in London. It is reported in a story that an 11 year old gives birth to a boy in the metropolis. About thirty years ago, such news could have created uproar in the society. But in the modern era, the news of 11 year old gives birth does not jolt that much, rather it has become an acceptable matter not only for other people but also for parents as well. Today, the standard of morality has gone through a drastic change. What was immoral and unacceptable in the past, is now tolerable. Any criticism from any quarter on such issues is considered encroachment upon human rights.

As per media information, a young girl who is just eleven years old has become a mother of a boy recently. Her parents are reportedly happy on becoming grand parents. They said that the girl and the newborn are in good health. The doctor also spoke to the media. He said that the young mother was being closely observed during her pregnancy, because she was exposed to high risk factor due to her tender age. In the western countries, such young mothers are in abundance now-a-days. There are hundreds of teenage mothers.

But in the instant case, the mother is not a teenager yet. She is herself a kid needed to be looked after by her parents. In this situation, it will be very difficult for her to bring up her child.

Such incidents are the consequences of free-sex society. Girls of tender age indulge into sexual activities. Pornographic material is readily available in printed as well as visual form and is accessible to people of all ages. No doubt, there are warnings for under-age kids, but its easy availability cannot be avoided.

http://www.khurak.net/11-year-old-gives-birth-0015137/​

Err, I think we need to remember what the OP was trying to get accross with his post. Namely, that "free-sex society" produces horrifying stories of chronically underage motherhood and nobody gives a **** any more.

First, I'd like to point out that the girl, according to the news report, was raped by her step father Michael Chaffer, and maybe this is the issue that needs to be broached. Secondly, the source provided is not necessarily reputable in that it appears to be some random person's blogged opinion on the said news report. Thirdly, the girl is not from London, but Ohio I believe - wrong continent. Forth - I don't know in which type of society the author of the said article resides...."But in the modern era, the news of 11 year old gives birth does not jolt that much, rather it has become an acceptable matter not only for other people but also for parents as well" - total rubbish! This would not be "acceptable" in any shape or form and I don't know anyone who would disagree!!

Sorry for ranting, but it irks me that this kind of trash can be posted, obviously with an intent to poke ridicule at Western society, and the source not questioned. Like I've said before, there are many issues that need to be dealt with and many that are deserved of that ridicule, but hey, there is no need to scrape the barrell with this c**p.

:hiding:mg::enough!::heated:

 

[aadil77]

^bro, there is no Islamic evidence per say but there are historical evidences for that.

Yh bro we can't rely on those sources for information relating to our deen, so basically we say we don't know how old Mariam was when she gave birth to nabi Isa

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

I don't know what sources you got this nonsense that the Virgin Mary was 12 when she gave birth to Jesus

I asked a Rabbi and others about her age 2/3 yrs back . Answers I got like this : She was not more than 14/15 . It was a tradition that women got married early . Also , she was staying in a Jewish temple and it was not allowed for any woman to stay inside a temple after puberty.

So , according to modern law , if Mother Mary ra would have given birth to Prophet Jesus pbuh now a days , surely earthy father of Jesus pbuh be in trouble for child abuse ( eek sorry for the mistakes in tense )

If u browse , u will see many Catholics believe she was 12 .

.....Blessed Virgin Mary remained in the Temple from the age of three and how Saint Joseph, who was a widower, was designated to look after her from the age of twelve. The priests of the Temple had gathered all the widowers together and Joseph was the one chosen when a dove miraculously emerged from his staff.

http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=16073

 

[Karl]

No, that was the supposed to be the post where you say 'I abhore any child having sexual intercourse, it's wrong!'

WHAT are you TALKING about?? I did NOT ever say that quote!! It is not up for me to judge others. What people do in their private affairs is none of my business. I do NOT abhore children (or so-called) having sexual relations. I do consider it perfectly ok if they are MARRIED first, as is set forth by both Islamic and Christian teachings. If it was so inherently "abhorent" for children to indulge sexually, then it would have been stipulated again and again and again in the holy books. It would have been one of the 10 commandments! But plain and simple fact is that there is not even ONE example of condemnation of child sexual relations in any of the Abrahamic faiths. Same goes with Hindu religion as well.

Such issue is ultimately something to be decided upon by PARENTAL discretion and prerogative. It is NOT a social matter, it is a DOMESTIC matter! Parents should raise their offspring AS THEY SEE FIT. End of story.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Parents should raise their offspring AS THEY SEE FIT. .

Parent must do it according to their holy book. Specially Muslims who believe Quranic laws are applicable til the last day and not to be changed accrording to men made laws.

 

[Karl]

Yep, the state of becoming completely developed, both sexually and physically. Most cultures recognize this to be 15-21, some even as young as 13, but I don't know of any culture that says 11.

Well an old German proverb states that adulthood begins at 12. But anyway, what has "culture" got to do with biological REALITY? Don't conflate the two. Just because something is cultural doesn't automatically make it CORRECT. Having said that, I agree with the old world German culture that considers age 12 to be a young adult. The reason why you see so many imbeciles considering that adulthood isn't reached until 18 or 21 is because they are idiotically confusing LEGAL SEMANTICS and the "age of majority" with biological reality.

According to law and the majority of people. And I'm not going to explain the birds and the bees to you. If you want to know how someone gets pregnant, maybe Wikipedia is your safest bet!

LOL, thought you'd be one to put all your trust in Wikipedia. You did NOT also answer his question. He asked you HOW can a "child" become pregnant? And you said look up Wikipedia because you couldn't be bothered explaining the birds and the bees. You really like to prevaricate and go off on tangents and reply with irrelevant answers when you know you have lost your argument. Wikipedia might explain HOW a mammal becomes pregnant, BUT it will NOT explain how a JUVENILE becomes pregnant. Why? This is BECAUSE it is simply biologically IMPOSSIBLE for a prepubescent to produce young!!

Karl implied it, when he said she wasn't raped and that as long as she's not murdered, it's not a crime!

You are correct that I stated that it is not ethically wrong to have full sexual intercourse with a post-pubescent as long as they are married first. And it is not ethically wrong to have erotic/sensual "outercourse" with a PREpubescent, but again only as long as they are married first. However, anal penetration is ethically wrong under Christian and Islamic teachings, and that doesn't matter WHAT age or what sex they are. It's taboo across the board. The reasons for this is because of potentially serious medical conditions arising from anal penetration.

Can you name me a single culture that doesn't think that people who are 11 are children? Anywhere where 11 year olds are considered adults? I think you'll find the world is pretty much unanimous in that respect.

Again you are confusing culture with scientific reality. To answer your question regarding "culture" though, in Islamic culture there is no actual set arbitrary "lunar age" when one is considered "adult". This is because different races and individuals mature at vastly different rates. Under Islam adulthood is defined by menses, and seeing many females are at menses by age 11 (and even younger) then they would be considered young adults. As I said, different hominid species mature at vastly different ages. I am Teutonic and we reach puberty at the average age of 9, and we are fully fledged and fully grown by 12.

I don't know what sources you got this nonsense that the Virgin Mary was 12 when she gave birth to Jesus from, although knowing you it was most likely a half baked 'fact' you invented on the spot!

As Muslim Woman correctly said, many Catholics have stated that she was 11 when Jesus was conceived and his birth was when she was 12. Aramaic historians have made these findings. So don't attack us for going by what prevalent Catholic conclusion is in this regard.

 

[Karl]

Parent must do it according to their holy book. Specially Muslims who believe Quranic laws are applicable til the last day and not to be changed accrording to men made laws.

I absolutely agree, sister. Muslims cannot apply laws that are contrary to the sunnah. What I was specifically meaning was that parents of each creed (religious or atheist or otherwise) should raise their own offspring as they see fit. That's why there is trouble in places like Yemen and Saudi Arabia with apostates trying to impose secular marriage age laws on Muslims. "Age laws" are nothing but a socialist dogma. They are a complete anathema against Allah.

 

[Supreme]

WHAT are you TALKING about?? I did NOT ever say that quote!! It is not up for me to judge others. What people do in their private affairs is none of my business. I do NOT abhore children (or so-called) having sexual relations. I do consider it perfectly ok if they are MARRIED first, as is set forth by both Islamic and Christian teachings. If it was so inherently "abhorent" for children to indulge sexually, then it would have been stipulated again and again and again in the holy books. It would have been one of the 10 commandments! But plain and simple fact is that there is not even ONE example of condemnation of child sexual relations in any of the Abrahamic faiths. Same goes with Hindu religion as well.

Such issue is ultimately something to be decided upon by PARENTAL discretion and prerogative. It is NOT a social matter, it is a DOMESTIC matter! Parents should raise their offspring AS THEY SEE FIT. End of story.

Ok, so let's talk science. No 11 year old has fully undergone puberty. Understand! Menstruation does not qualify as passing puberty, especially as it can be a very early stage!

Just to clarify, there is not a single Christian who believe having sex with 11 year old girls is 'normal' or 'acceptable'. It isn't mentioned in scriptures because one would have thought having sex with children is pretty much off the cards without having to use sacred texts to convey that message- nothing wrong with a bit of common sense!

As Muslim Woman correctly said, many Catholics have stated that she was 11 when Jesus was conceived and his birth was when she was 12. Aramaic historians have made these findings. So don't attack us for going by what prevalent Catholic conclusion is in this regard.

'many Catholics'!!??? I've yet to meet one Catholic who thinks this. But even so, since when did Muslims get their information from Catholic tradition (tradition as in it isn't in the Bible or any reliable source).

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

..'many Catholics'!!??? I've yet to meet one Catholic who thinks this..

I am banned in the Catholic forum . Can u pl. go there and ask Catholics about the age of Mother Mary ra when she got married ?

since when did Muslims get their information from Catholic tradition

I guess , since when Christians started thinking that young marriage is illegal and unethical , Muslims are trying to convince them it's l00 % lawful according to all major holy books :statisfie

Remember , according to ur holy book , God's son David pbuh married a young virgin when he was at death bed . He was minimum 60 and according to jewish tradition of the past , the young wife was maximum 13 or 14.

Is not it a clear proof for Chrisitians that age gap is not fixed in Bible and a much older person can take a young virgin as wife ?

 

[islamirama]

Such issue is ultimately something to be decided upon by PARENTAL discretion and prerogative. It is NOT a social matter, it is a DOMESTIC matter! Parents should raise their offspring AS THEY SEE FIT. End of story.

I happen to agree with those "apostates" trying to change the law. We do need a law today because there's too many fools trying to abuse Islam's silence on the age limit. A father married off his 11yr old daughter to his 50 year old friend when the girl and her mother both protested. Apparently these loser "wali" do as they please and marry off their little girls to old perverts and miserably failing to act in the best interest of the girl.

 

[Muslim Woman]

... A father married off his 11yr old daughter to his 50 year old friend when the girl and her mother both protested. .

If I remember correctly , father took a loan from his friend and unable to pay it and friend forced him to arrange the marriage. This goes against the teaching of Islam .

U can't force any girl in to marriage . Also Prophet pbuh said that means if u have ability , then allow him/her time to pay the loan. Everything went against Islam in this case .

As already stated , Muslims must act according to holy book.

 

[Karl]

Ok, so let's talk science. No 11 year old has fully undergone puberty. Understand! Menstruation does not qualify as passing puberty, especially as it can be a very early stage!

Speak for YOUR race, NOT mine!! :raging: The 11 year old involved is PREGNANT, therefore she is a young woman, not a mere "child". You said that "no" 11 year old has fully undergone puberty. So then, do you know every single living 11 yo on the planet to verify that blatant broadband statement? You make me laugh. How can you make a statement like that if you have not seen every 11 yo in existence on the planet? It's plain illogic to make such unfounded statements without PROOF first!! Secondly you are plain wrong. I told you about different hominid races before. I told you that my race is 100% fully developed by 12, and we are able to produce perfectly healthy offspring by age 9. Just because YOUR race is so inferior not to be able to do that is no reason for you to get jealous of our superiority! ;D

Just to clarify, there is not a single Christian who believe having sex with 11 year old girls is 'normal' or 'acceptable'.

"No" Christian in existence? there you go again! So what you have said to me is that you know every single living Christian on the planet? Are you sure that you don't think YOURSELF as God to know SO MUCH? LOL. You obviously don't know every single Mormon in Utah.

It isn't mentioned in scriptures because one would have thought having sex with children is pretty much off the cards without having to use sacred texts to convey that message- nothing wrong with a bit of common sense!!

Your argument is audacious, treacherous and presumptuous beyond belief. If it was such "common sense" then WHY did religion need to spoon feed with such fundamental commonsense not to steal or kill? I would have thought THAT would have been just plain common sense!! Yet in the 10 commandments it states some of the most common sense things such as "Thou shalt not steal". As Muslim Woman also stated, everything is permitted that is not forbidden in the Quran. "One would have thought"?, LOL! Yeah, says who?? and that "one" is YOU thinking that, NOT ME! And neither have you proof that your purported "one" are all Muslims and Christians thoughout history.

I am glad that the word "imposter" was one that got in the dictionary very quick.

 

[Karl]

I happen to agree with those "apostates" trying to change the law. We do need a law today because there's too many fools trying to abuse Islam's silence on the age limit. A father married off his 11yr old daughter to his 50 year old friend when the girl and her mother both protested. Apparently these loser "wali" do as they please and marry off their little girls to old perverts and miserably failing to act in the best interest of the girl.

"Age limit"???????????? As I just said to your friend Supreme, I am just glad that there is an entry in the English dictionary for "imposter". You definately are the very first "Muslim" I have ever encountered to speak in such communist/secularist parlance. And the sheer ARROGANCE of it all!! Please cite for me precisely in the Quran where it stipulates a minimum lunar age for marriage!!!!! Find me the number!!!!! :raging: One thing I utterly detest are busybody communists meddling in domestic family matters! They are the enemy of Islam :raging:

 

[islamirama]

You definately are the very first "Muslim" I have ever encountered to speak in such communist/secularist parlance. And the sheer ARROGANCE of it all!! One thing I utterly detest are busybody communists meddling in domestic family matters! They are the enemy of Islam :raging:

So i'm a communist/secularist and an enemy of islam now? and this coming from someone named "karl"? yea good one kid!

Please cite for me precisely in the Quran where it stipulates a minimum lunar age for marriage!!!!! Find me the number!!!!! :raging:

Please use your brain even if slightly! the scholars can make ruling against something even if there was no ruling before, if it is necessary. Stop blowing hot air and accusations of others being kuffar for a minute and use your freaking little noggin! maybe you'll find my answer in the last post then...