14-Year-Old, Murders Her Newborn Baby

[glo]

She slept in the same room as her baby despite the smell.

Actually, continuing to sleep in the same room with a decomposing body doesn't sound like something a person of sound mind would do. Sounds pretty disturbed to me.

 

[جوري]

criminals are disturbed individuals but it doesn't mean they're not calculating. BTW, criminals are known to visit the scenes of their crimes, and many bury it on site rather than having to constantly worry someone will unearth it at some remote location. Also many like to keep tokens from their victims.

 

[Marina-Aisha]

sounds to me just just shoved her poor baby in some shoe box and shoved the baby under the bed she clearly doesnt care...but does it really matter she took a life..to treat her own baby in such a way horrific no matter wot state of mind her child derserves justice....

 

[Futuwwa]

saving the moral preaching for 'judgement day' won't make others take heed either for preventative measures or for the powers that be to establish justice, which we're actually required to implement in the here and now..

So "justice", in the form of, what, crucifying the perpetrator, is more important than preventing things like this from happening in the future? The moral preaching is utterly redundant since there is already a consensus that killing children is massively immoral. The only one who benefits from the preaching are, well, people like you who get to feel righteous.

what's your religion btw? Apathy? - if you don't like the subject matter, you're welcome to skip this thread!

best,

My religion can be found in the box to the left of this post, a bit below the honey pot. Check it out.

Should I skip every thread where I object to the attitude of the original poster? Would you rather want every one of your threads to be a circle-jerk where everyone agrees with you and you all agree on how awesome you are for having the right opinions and attitudes?

 

[جوري]

So "justice", in the form of, what, crucifying the perpetrator, is more important than preventing things like this from happening in the future? The moral preaching is utterly redundant since there is already a consensus that killing children is massively immoral. The only one who benefits from the preaching are, well, people like you who get to feel righteous.

I didn't suggest they 'crucify' the perpetrator. I do however think she should be tried as an adult since it is an adult crime and receive whatever punishment comes with killing a human being which is decided by her state. I think it should be made public so others can take heed so we're not hearing about this every other day, whether it is a massacre one place or a mother killing her child in another and then folks wondering where they went wrong.. Well they went wrong simply having apathetic folks like you shrug their shoulder at every crime!
As for preventative measures, well it is called abstinence, but you don't seem to advocate either, punishment for crime or abstinence so I am not sure what you problem is really? As for 'preaching' one doesn't get the feeling that you understand, care or desire to make a difference and as stated prior if 'preaching' bothers you, you're welcome to skip the thread all together! No?
It is amusing to see someone this exasperated over folks being disgusted with a guilty person's behavior.. it is almost as if a catharsis of a crime you yourself committed and desire to be exonerated of.

My religion can be found in the box to the left of this post, a bit below the honey pot. Check it out.
Should I skip every thread where I object to the attitude of the original poster? Would you rather want every one of your threads to be a circle-jerk where everyone agrees with you and you all agree on how awesome you are for having the right opinions and attitudes?

Indeed, your religion seems incongruous with what you write and how you behave.
lastly my thread isn't about how awesome I am, check the subject matter perhaps then you won't seem so confused. I'd welcome an antagonistic piece if there were something substantive in it. And there are a couple of people on this thread who don't agree with my comments and managed to have an exchange that wasn't so dead end!
As for being wrong well I don't think you stand on the same platform with the most basic laws of a civil society!

best,

 

[Futuwwa]

This is a public forum, that what is used for !

If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.

What kind of support?? To tell her it is ok to have unprotected sex?? It is ok to kill a baby?? after all you are only a child yourself!!!

What kind of support?? Encourage teen pregnancy by providing a free ride. Teenage pregnancy has been a huge issue in the west, because people refuse to give responsibilities to those teen.

In the UK for example, if you are a teen and single mother, you get free life. Free council flat, free money, and teen get pregnant so they can leave their parent house, because the system sympathises with those “ children”

The support inherent in letting the child know that it can always count on the help of its parents when in need, no matter how badly the child has screwed up. As long as the help isn't grossly immoral at any rate, which it would not be in this case. A child who has screwed up badly and ended in an awful situation has already suffered enough, the last thing the child needs is reproaches on what it "should" have done. What someone "should" have done is utterly irrelevant if it has already happened and can't be undone. What's needed in such a situation is solutions on how to move forward. That this pregnant teen girl did not tell her parents implies that she had reason to believe the grief she's get from letting them know would make it not worth it to tell them, that telling them would only make things worse.

If your children, after having screwed up badly and being in great need, fear to tell you about it and stay silent because they believe they wouldn't get any help and that the grief they'd get from you would make it totally not worth it to tell you, you have failed critically as a parent.

Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?

And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.

 

[Tyrion]

As for preventative measures, well it is called abstinence,

You've mentioned this a couple of times now. Do you really believe this is all we need to teach kids?

 

[جوري]

If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.

Most of your comments thus far were non-contributory, surely you can distinguish the difference between being objectionable for the sake of it or offering some useful solutions that are in concert with ones religious beliefs and also beneficial to society which doesn't include rewarding criminal behavior. Every society has its criminals even the human body. When the the body is attacked it doesn't decide to 'reform' the bacteria or virus or whatever, it works by various means to rid the body of it.. and in this case it should be no different!
At the end of the day it is a judicial matter and she may indeed be tried as a child and do whatever three months come out to the same behavior because 'western studies' show that their prison system is also not meant to reform!

The support inherent in letting the child know that it can always count on the help of its parents when in need, no matter how badly the child has screwed up. As long as the help isn't grossly immoral at any rate, which it would not be in this case. A child who has screwed up badly and ended in an awful situation has already suffered enough, the last thing the child needs is reproaches on what it "should" have done. What someone "should" have done is utterly irrelevant if it has already happened and can't be undone. What's needed in such a situation is solutions on how to move forward. That this pregnant teen girl did not tell her parents implies that she had reason to believe the grief she's get from letting them know would make it not worth it to tell them, that telling them would only make things worse.

What she has done is all that's relevant- the laws are made so that from conception to delivery she'd have complete autonomy even if there were no support system at home. In some states like Chicago a minor can be fully emancipated during pregnancy. Doesn't need parent consent for anything from the screwing part to the delivery part, and there are several hospitals where she can have a baby drop off program.. So she could have had this kid in an outside toilet, wrapped it in toilet paper and left it like people drop off books!
I must admit, it is very amusing the concept of severe criminal behavior being treated with nothing more than a slap on the wrist if at all!

If your children, after having screwed up badly and being in great need, fear to tell you about it and stay silent because they believe they wouldn't get any help and that the grief they'd get from you would make it totally not worth it to tell you, you have failed critically as a parent.

Again, even if parental help were missing, the laws are setup so she can have multiple options without incurring their wrath in any form!

Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?

well of course you do.. In this case no baby was left out, it was pried out with a sharp instrument and choked

And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.

with such shows as 16 and pregnant glorfying teenage out of wedlock pregnancy, and rewarding it with money and free air time, your theory on what the average western teenager wants comes up empty as usual!

best,

 

[جوري]

You've mentioned this a couple of times now. Do you really believe this is all we need to teach kids?

I don't know about your kids but that's how we raise ours with some basic religious foundations as to what's right and wrong!

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

we don´t know how this child became pregnant or know really hers situation. We should not try to judge her at all.

Allah knows.

She might became raped and as she is child she might be terrified.

Shouldn´t we people try to be as merciful as Allah?


:nervous:

 

[جوري]

The doors of repentance are always open but repentance in and of itself isn't an expiation of sin.. in other words if you steal and you're exempt from all the conditions that would make that act allowed as in you were starving and someone not paying you, your due rights than hadd has to be carried out.. That is a separate issue from repentance and forgiveness.. Those doors are always open if one is sincere and that is a matter between them and God, but the law of this earth is something between the person and the society they live in. If she were raped and this was the minute yet unfortunate event of that happening. It would have come out in her confession along with her not knowing what to do with it...

Only Allah swt knows best but as it now seems she's like previous folks that have come and gone killing their children and putting them in a dumpster. Oh I know the whole population control cull down on the unwanted is an in thing now.. But it isn't an in thing with folks of reason...this is a jahlya practice and I can't agree with it and as the hadith states:
On the authority of Abu Saeed al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say, “Whoever of you sees an evil must then change it with his hand. If he is not able to do so, then [he must change it ] with his tongue. And if he is not able to do so, then [he must change it] with his heart. And that is the slightest [effect of] faith.” (Recorded in Muslim)

 

[MartyrX]

I have to agree with the posters who have said that we don't really know the circumstances behind her pregnancy. She got pregnant and that's wrong, but for whatever reason, she felt like she couldn't tell her family or had someone to go to. I understand that feeling. I don't condone the murder of an innocent child, but we should seek to understand before, we seek to judge.

 

[hur575]

If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.

Where did I say do not be criticize my opinion?? You are the one you want to force your opinion down our throat by shutting us up until the Day of Judgment. You the one said

Save the moral preaching for Judgment Day..

Hence, I reminded you it is a public forum, and that is the whole point of it, to voice our opinions not to SAVE THEM.

Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?
.

Of course I understand the purpose but the end does not justify the mean. There are millions ways to care for the children without making it, a free ride to encourage teen pregnancies.

And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.

Regarding this statement, I am sorry but that is not accurate. I live in the UK I know it is common problem here, and it has been discussed many times in the media. Please google UK benefit system and teenage pregnancy or UK teenage pregnancy problem, you will find articles and studies about this specific issue.

In one article in BBC website I will quote some of it “The UK has the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe - twice as high as in Germany, three times as high as in France and six times as high as in the Netherlands.

Why are the figures on the increase?”

In another section of the article

"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."

So it is not my imaginative mind, it has been a problem for some time now but instead of solving the problem, people suggest the same old, tried and failed methods.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Where did I say do not be criticize my opinion?? You are the one you want to force your opinion down our throat by shutting us up until the Day of Judgment. You the one said Hence, I reminded you it is a public forum, and that is the whole point of it, to voice our opinions not to SAVE THEM.



Of course I understand the purpose but the end does not justify the mean. There are millions ways to care for the children without making it, a free ride to encourage teen pregnancies.



Regarding this statement, I am sorry but that is not accurate. I live in the UK I know it is common problem here, and it has been discussed many times in the media. Please google UK benefit system and teenage pregnancy or UK teenage pregnancy problem, you will find articles and studies about this specific issue.

In one article in BBC website I will quote some of it “The UK has the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe - twice as high as in Germany, three times as high as in France and six times as high as in the Netherlands.

Why are the figures on the increase?”

In another section of the article

"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."

So it is not my imaginative mind, it has been a problem for some time now but instead of solving the problem, people suggest the same old, tried and failed methods.

I also live in the UK. And I like the benefit system here. What would you suggest hand out food stamps like America? How degrading is that?
How accurate is the media in the uk? The same media the exaggerate crimes committed by Muslims by emphasising the fact they are “Muslims” regardless whether they are practicing or not?

The media that uses unethical tactics to gain a headline?

What do suppose we do with single mothers? Incentive to get pregnant? How?

They are expected to put up with dirty and run down hostel or flats and sometimes in dangerous area. Single mothers don’t have a choice where they stay or the amount money they receive. Once the child is age seven, they are expected to work.

I am sorry; the most vulnerable people in our society should receive help that includes single mothers. No point punishing children because their mothers are single.

 

[Independent]

"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."

This point of view is popular with right wingers but not accepted everywhere. According to a recent study of UK teenage mothers: "There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).

It's also often said (about countries like the Netherlands) that the reason for lower pregnancy rates is a more thorough sex education at school (which, ironically, right wingers sometimes resist.)

 

[جوري]

"There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).

That 'study' is from 1998 which renders your entire argument null. firstly we don't know what kind of study this was, in what demographics, or the power of the study, it is in all likelihood a retrospect and considering the population questioned not only can their memory be shoddy.. there's always the possibility of *gasps* teenagers lying (imagine that) - also a whole generation has been spawned since which if a product of wedlock are out of wedlock themselves and know of the benefits their mothers received. Surely people's knowledge evolves in 15 years worth of time? why that's practically another teenager born to a teenager!
In what way has sex education curbed on teen pregnancy?
I told you before to do a little research before you write, we can't all go in to clean up after you!
best,

 

[جوري]

And I like the benefit system here.

sister,

a welfare system has its roots in an Islamic state, from Zakat to bayt al'mal etc.
but there was a responsibility from both parties as I am sure you well know. Even men in the army were required by law that was instated during the caliphate of Umar ibn Ilkhtaab to not be absent from their spouse for more than four months at a time, and mothers also under this caliphate received benefits the minute their infant was born. But as stated there was responsibility from both parties. Now it seems almost unconscionable to inject a little bit of common sense, this system is set so that folks would orbit in the same circle for generations never breaking the mold if not actually become more degenerate with time as it becomes more normal and more allowed.
At any rate that wasn't the subject of the thread and I am not sure why we ended up here given the subject of the thread. In the U.S teenagers or any woman who doesn't want her baby to safely deposit him somewhere:
http://www.wikihow.com/Drop-Off-an-Unwanted-Baby

 

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,

From an Islamic view-point, a woman becomes accountable when she fulfils the conditions:- being of sound mind and being an adult.

Adulthood is reached when she menstruates or by the growth of hair around the private part; or when she reaches the age of fifteen.

So, the fact that this 14-year old was able to fall pregnant - fulfills the above conditions and thus she should be treated as an adult......and her actions should be condemned as such as well (if she was living in an Islamic state).

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Our solutions to every facet of life lies in Quraan and Sunnah......why do place such importance on our own 'opinions' in such matters.

The islamic standing on the definition of 'adulthood' and maturation may sound harsh to some......but then, are we questioning the mercy of our Rabb, the One who is the All-Merciful?

There is so much wisdom in each and every command of Allah (subhanawataála).

Not only are we holding young adults (and this is what a 'teenager' is) ACCOUNTABLE for their actions, but the punishment that would be meeted out in this worldly life (according to Shariah law), will stand as an example for the rest of the community.

One only needs to live in a country that is over-run by crime and lawlessness, to understand how important this is for a society to function optimally.

How many young men and women would even consider committing adultery - if they were to hear/ be witness to the punishment for it?
How many murders would occur?
How many petty thefts would take place if the hands were being lost?

I personally pray that I could live in Saudi (Oh Allah, bless me with residence and maut in Makkah/ Medinah! Ameen) - for so many reasons, including the fact that when the azaan for prayer is given - one does not even need to lock ones shop/ pack away the items being sold on the pavements, before heading for the masjid.......such is the overwhelming trust and FEAR in Allah (subhanawatáala)......and if taqwa is not sufficient - then at the very least, fear of the state and the punishment for being caught stealing.

Im not sure what all this discussion is even about.

As muslims - we accept and embrace the commands of Allah Taa'la in ALL things.......even if we cannot completely comprehend it, or even if it is difficult for us to accept.

Once we take shahada, we do not question the commands of our Rabb.
We obey.

:wa:

 

[LauraS]

This point of view is popular with right wingers but not accepted everywhere. According to a recent study of UK teenage mothers: "There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).

It's also often said (about countries like the Netherlands) that the reason for lower pregnancy rates is a more thorough sex education at school (which, ironically, right wingers sometimes resist.)

Hmmm I'm not so sure, I once overheard someone say they don't have to worry about working because they can just have a baby, be given a houe and get everything paid for them.

 

[glo]

From an Islamic view-point, a woman becomes accountable when she fulfils the conditions:- being of sound mind and being an adult.

Hi Zaria

It is easy to determine when somebody reaches adulthood from a physical perspective. Like you say, that happens when we reach physical maturity.

But what about mental maturity? How do we measure that? Or does that not part of the statement you made? Does physical maturity assume mental maturity?
Like I said in a post earlier, I find that there can be a vast discrepancy between physical and mental maturity in adolescents ...

And what about being of sound mind?
From what we know about this young girl, how can we be sure that she is of sound mind?
Prising your unborn baby out of your own body with scissors and keeping it's dead body in a box in your bedroom until it begins to smell are not the actions of somebody of sound mind (as I have also mentioned in an earlier post).

Do you think these are the actions of a human being in a rational state?