2 people kill 14 in USA

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The conflict between the West and Muslims World nowadays actually is something 'natural'. If two powers from different poles make alliance in war, and win, Then usually they start to 'disagree' with each other. This conflict began after the West-Muslims alliance won Afghan war. Indeed, the fighters in the war were mujahideen. But behind the mujahideen, there was this alliance that supplied weapons. Indonesia supplied weapons too to mujahideen which the plane that carried these weapons transit in Diego Garcia. Malaysia supplied weapons too through US government.
 
I didn't follow the thread but, for the sake of argument I have to ask. If there are Muslims who want to go out and kill people, why not target government officials? **I mean, what benfit will there be, Islamically, going into a grocery store, work place, or wherever and shooting up the place and taking out as many people as you can (Muslims and non-Muslims alike)? Take Satanyahu (netanyahu...) for example. I'd imagine he'd be at the top of most Muslim's hit list, were one ever to exist.


**Keep in mind I don't believe there to be any benefit in killing anyone period with the exception of self defense. Even in the time of war, the prophet saws treated prisoners of war better than the way a lot of people are treated in their own countries.
 
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I didn't follow the thread but, for the sake of argument I have to ask. If there are Muslims who want to go out and kill people, why not target government officials? **I mean, what benfit will there be, Islamically, going into a grocery store, work place, or wherever and shooting up the place and taking out as many people as you can (Muslims and non-Muslims alike)? Take Satanyahu (netanyahu...) for example. I'd imagine he'd be at the top of most Muslim's hit list, were one ever to exist.
You must see this from psychological point of view. They attacked civilian, and not military, because it gave bigger mental effect. If they attack only military or government institution institution, it would make government alerted, but civilian still feel safe. But if they attack civilian, it would cause panic among civilian, and mentally affect government which they feel they failed to protect civilian.

This is indeed, the concept of terror.
 
^ It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group. We see this come up throughout history and if you look close you can see it in your own "side". It becomes us vs them, and it really doesn't matter to them if it is a random civilian in a grocery store or the general who ordered the bombing of their home town, so long as the two of them are indentified as part of the same grouping.

Look up a few posts and read what Abz wrote about civilians of western democracies. He was saying you are a valid target if you live in the west, since you may have voted for the politician or didn't do enough to stop them from doing whatever it is they did, and even if you didn't, it doesn't much phase him. See above. You can see the same thing in the west, with people and their hatred of Muslims... not differentiating between Osama Bin Laden or that very nice Muslim who runs the nieghborhood deli. They see a "halal" sign go up in that deli and they think that guy is a terrorist.And you see the same with racism, etc, people mistreating others because of the race they are grouped into.
 
^ It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group. We see this come up throughout history and if you look close you can see it in your own "side". It becomes us vs them, and it really doesn't matter to them if it is a random civilian in a grocery store or the general who ordered the bombing of their home town, so long as the two of them are indentified as part of the same grouping.

Look up a few posts and read what Abz wrote about civilians of western democracies. He was saying you are a valid target if you live in the west, since you may have voted for the politician or didn't do enough to stop them from doing whatever it is they did, and even if you didn't, it doesn't much phase him. See above. You can see the same thing in the west, with people and their hatred of Muslims... not differentiating between Osama Bin Laden or that very nice Muslim who runs the nieghborhood deli. They see a "halal" sign go up in that deli and they think that guy is a terrorist.And you see the same with racism, etc, people mistreating others because of the race they are grouped into.
Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)
 
:bism:

A nice sentiment, but wouldn't isis and similar Muslim sympathizers say that you are not real Muslims!

I'm as "real" a Muslim as any other. In Islamic basic legal definition, a person who says he is a Muslim is to be treated as a Muslim. Period. Full Stop. Dot. To do so otherwise is a corrupt, modern, aberrant un-Islamic practice that has flagrantly reared its head in the modern era.

The only Muslim capable of declaring a person(s) non-Muslim in Islamic law is a learned scholar and jurist of Islamic jurisprudence based on the apparent "behaviors" of that person or group, though scholars too have traditionally shied from doing so with the understanding that judgment is with Allah SubnahAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) and only done so when conscience has prevailed on them to undertake this odious arduous task to prevent or warn Muslims of any aberrance to preserve orthodox Islam.

Also, being a Muslim is quite a simple matter, which comprises of first and foremost declaring or believing in God and the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) as part of the 5 pillars of Islam and also accepting the 6 pillars of iman (faith).

Also, just as some Muslims have one believe that one is not a real Muslim, other persons would have one believe that a Muslim cannot be a true American. So, the one-sided rhetoric exists on both sides of the equation. And honestly, all one has to do is be patient and introspect at the allegation or accusation and if then finds that one's conscience sits right, ignore the negative voices or naysayers.

Personally, as a Muslim, I don't spend my time or my energies concerning myself with what this or that person may think about my "Muslim-ness" because all I know is that I have to be right with God, and therefore everything else is just background noise to me.

Isn't this an incomplete quote of the actual texts? Which were for the Jews!

I awant to thank you for the query that I seemed to read in between your lines, which I'd like to answer, and I also want to say I appreciate you sharing the actual text of the verse of the Quran as I have always felt that it is a poignant and ocean-deep verse. Well, yes, in the Quran, the context itself refers to the Children of Isra'il, Muslims have historically and traditionally understood the verse to apply to how Muslims should conduct themselves. Muslim is one who "submits His will to God." You have to understand that Islam is set as a criterion by which to distinguish right and wrong, understand the forbidden and also how to conduct oneself in such a manner as to not be tempted into the forbidden, and also a means of using mental intellect and spiritual intellect to attain perfection in character and manners. Muslim scholars have used the verse as a means of juxtaposing the behavior required of believers to the behavior seen in organizations or individuals that commit un-Islamic actions like the one in San Bernardino.

For example, read the review of the fatwa (Islamic ruling) on the matter of attacks like we see in our modern time:
Muslim World Book Review: Spring 32, (3), pp. 18-20

Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings, (London: Minhaj-ul-Quran International, 2010), pp. 512, £ 19.95

Review by Maulana Dr M Mansur Ali
Cambridge Muslim College

This is the translation of an Urdu fatwa (Dahshat gardi awr fitnae khawarij) written by the author primarily to condemn terrorist activities taking place in the Asian sub-continent. In the original Urdu fatwa the author has a disclaimer saying that the writing of this fatwa is not politically motivated but a sincere attempt to rescue Islam from being hijacked by a discourse on terror. His intention is to show the beauty of Islam and that terrorism is not a part of this beauty. It is an exhaustive piece of work and reads like a classical Islamic law manual: first looking at linguistic analysis of key words, seconded by scriptural evidence from the Quran and Hadith and finally followed by the opinions of the legal experts. The English translation first discussed at a ‘historical launch’ press conference in London in March 2010 which was later published as a 512 page monograph in December 2010, had attracted much media attention. The introduction has also been translated into a myriad of languages including Arabic, French, German and Norwegian. It is also accompanied by a website, a Facebook and Twitter page. The English translation of the fatwa is preceded by a forward and an introduction by two eminent scholars in their subject area.

In the forward, Professor John Esposito places the fatwa in its historical context by showing that it is but one from a line of condemnations by Muslim scholars against terrorism and indiscriminate killing. He quotes authorities such as Timothy Winter, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia. He makes reference to two important initiatives by Muslim scholars worldwide in their collective condemnation of terrorism: the Amman Message (2004-5) and ‘A Common Word Between Us and You’ (2007). Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri’s fatwa is an important continuation of the Muslim voice against terrorism. The author of the introduction, Dr Joel Hayward, a scholar of war and strategy, expresses his frustration that hitherto condemnations of terrorism have not done anything to convince non-Muslims of the peaceful nature of Islam, neither have they stopped Muslims from being radicalized. He says that in March 2010 he breathed a huge sigh of relief.

The fatwa is solidly grounded in the Islamic sources. Its meticulous attention to details covering every single avenue makes it read almost like an encyclopaedia on the ethics of war and justice. It discusses the lexical and etymological meanings of Islam, Iman and Ihsan, the unlawfulness of indiscriminately killing people, Muslim or otherwise. He writes about the unlawfulness of terrorism in all forms, the rules related to the protection of ones religion, life, honour and wealth and the prohibition of rebelling against the government amongst many other things. The fatwa also includes the opinions of Salafi and Deobandi scholars in their condemnation of terrorism.

However, there are two unique features of the fatwa which distinguishes it from other fatwas written on the subject. First of all the author claims that it is ‘an absolute condemnation of terrorism, without any excuses, without any pretext, without any exceptions, without creating any ways of justification, this condemnation is in its totality, in its comprehensiveness, in its absoluteness, [...] a total condemnation of every act of terrorism in every form and every manifestation.’ And the second unique feature which is the main thrust of the fatwa and which the author calls his unique contribution, is his declaration that terrorists are ‘outside the ambit of Islam’ in other words they are kafirs who are not ‘heroes of Islam but the heroes of hell.’

The author comes to this conclusion through three different types of reasoning. First of all through a linguistic analysis of the words ‘Islam’ and ‘Iman’ he concludes that a terrorist acts contrary to what Islam and Iman are and therefore he cannot be from them even though outwardly he is pious and devout (p. 35). The second evidence for declaring terrorists as kafirs is based on Abu Mansur al-Maturidi’s reading of the verse ‘whoever kills a person, except as a punishment for murder or disorder in the land, it is as if he killed all of humanity (Quran 5:32). Al-Maturidi’s reading of the verse is based on the understanding that a person who deems it permissible to kill another person (istihlal al-qatl) without recourse to a court of law, in essence is denying the validity of the Quranic verse and as a result of this he is a kafir. This is different from the person who kills out of anger without believing it to be permissible.

The above two reasonings are only preambles to the author’s main reasoning in declaring terrorists as kafirs. His main ammunition against them is that they are the same old evil kharijites with a new name. He dedicates over 145 pages in trying to prove this (chapter 17: today’s terrorists are kharijites, p.385). By identifying similar khariji traits in the modern day terrorists, he declares them to be a modern manifestation of kharijis and then falls back on to higher authorities who have declared kharijites to be out of the fold of Islam (he also honestly documents the opinions of those scholars who did not hold this view). He sincerely believes that the Prophet’s prophecies regarding the description of the kharijites also fit into today’s terrorists. However, in doing so he makes some gross generalizations such as the Prophet saying they will be young, they will have bushy beards, they will wear their trousers way above their ankles and that they will come from the east. He even tries to make acoustic links between the Haruriya (another name for the kharijites) and modern day Hizb al-Tahrir, and al-Qa’diya (one of the names for the kharijites) and al-Qaeda saying that the only difference in the latter is the addition of the letter alif.

Although most readers will agree with the bulk of the fatwa, some may find the author’s main thrust of the fatwa (i.e. declaring the terrorists to be non-Muslims) problematic and difficult to accept from a theological and sociological point of view. First of all one may ask what constitutes istihalal. Modern day terrorists are not deliberately rejecting a ma’lum min al-din bi al-darura (that which is necessarily known from the religion), but they are sincerely upholding an interpretation (yuqatiluna ala al-ta’wil) which mainstream Islam rejects. They are guilty of violating ijma’ and not kufr. Therefore, one may say that the author is too absolute in assuming that rejecting a consensual interpretation constitutes kufr. Similarly the author’s position goes against the Amman message which professor Esposito writes about in the forward. Scholars who signed the Amman message, of which the author is also a signatory, agreed that it is not permissible for anyone to declare a person who believes in Allah and the Prophet as an apostate. Ironically, it categorically mentions that the Ibadis are Muslims, the Ibadis being an offshoot of the historical kharijites.

Another problem arising from declaring the terrorists to be non-Muslims is that one may see it as an attempt to shy away from the fact that terrorism is a problem within the Muslim community. A more head-on theological rebuttal to terrorist misreading of the Islamic sources would have been more efficient. And finally one may say that by declaring terrorists as non-Muslims the author is falling into the very same mentality that the kharijites were notorious for. Saying this, the author’s line of argument may help potential terrorists think twice before allowing themselves to be radicalised. We hope this maybe the case.
 
Greetings,

I must be honest too, then :)

When I was younger (after 9/11), I thought that Islam was my enemy, and I almost joined the Army. My girlfriend and Mom talked me out of it. I had very dark feelings for Muslims. I joined thus website, it part, to dispel my emotional misconceptions.

My expectation was that, if I engaged with the Muslim community, locally and internationally, that I would find that they are all people just like me: trying to live their lives and be happy. That's why I'm going to a Mosque this weekend. Now that I think about it, that's the main reason I'm here. We're all just people, and I need to get that idea into my thick skull.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge

Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)
 
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Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group.

Once the first killing has happened, we have to turn to God for the solution, we should give up our rightful anger, be merciful and forgive them. If we hate and kill we become like them. Forgiving someone is one of the hardest things we are asked to do.

We are all created by the same God, we shall never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
 
Like in the Christianity, also in Islam the idea of blood feud is against its basic teachings. As I referred before:

"No soul earns anything except it is upon itself, and none shall bear the burdens of another."

Surat Al-An’am 6:164

Here is an article about collective punishments:

http://abuaminaelias.com/collective-punishment-is-a-crime-in-islam/



Once again groups like daesh distort the message of Islam to excuse their own wrongdoings. Unfortunately specially people whose knowledge about Islam isn´t very good, believe those lies and believe they are part of Islam.
 
Like many other Muslims I learned Islam since I was kid. There are many things that I have learned. Jihad?. Jihad was one subject that I have learned. Yes, I believe, if I die in jihad, then I became martyr and go to heaven. Other Muslims have same belief too.

But unfortunately, nowadays there are Muslims who don't know that not every jihad is true jihad, not every martyr is true martyr. They think they do jihad, although what they do actually is terrorism. They think they will go to heaven if killed in action without they know they will be die as terrorist, and no heaven for them.

So, it's a duty for Islamic teachers to teach what is the true jihad, what is the true martyr, to prevent Muslims people, especially youth, deceived by those who misuse them and promising them heaven.

Yes, I have been taught about jihad. Then, am I dangerous for the others?. Okay, I ask you. You have been taught that you must ready to defend your nation, you have been taught that if you die in defend the nation, you would become a hero. Then does it make you dangerous for people in other nations?.

My Islamic teachers also taught me that the best way to resolve a dispute is without violence. They taught me love and care to the others. Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam from teachers like them.

:)
 
:bism:

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself.

I find the fact that you're trying to engage with Muslims (both online and offline) laudable, as if I were in your place, I don't know that I'd have had the intention or the courage. Really no one wants to change or discover things behind something as it's easier to not do anything, really.

(Sighs.) If you had a thick skull as you seem to believe, you wouldn't have been here in the first place - so, maybe give yourself a break?

We're all human beings simply trying to fumble our way through life and snap up moments of happiness in the best way, and we're all trying our best in some way or another.

Greetings,

I must be honest too, then :)

When I was younger (after 9/11), I thought that Islam was my enemy, and I almost joined the Army. My girlfriend and Mom talked me out of it. I had very dark feelings for Muslims. I joined thus website, it part, to dispel my emotional misconceptions.

My expectation was that, if I engaged with the Muslim community, locally and internationally, that I would find that they are all people just like me: trying to live their lives and be happy. That's why I'm going to a Mosque this weekend. Now that I think about it, that's the main reason I'm here. We're all just people, and I need to get that idea into my thick skull.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge
 
:bism:

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself.

I find the fact that you're trying to engage with Muslims (both online and offline) laudable, as if I were in your place, I don't know that I'd have had the intention or the courage. Really no one wants to change or discover things behind something as it's easier to not do anything, really.

(Sighs.) If you had a thick skull as you seem to believe, you wouldn't have been here in the first place - so, maybe give yourself a break?

We're all human beings simply trying to fumble our way through life and snap up moments of happiness in the best way, and we're all trying our best in some way or another.
I am here too....trying to contact Muslams....I have no personal contact with any....there a very few where I am...

I am reading lots of books, history....I read the Koran.....I am trying to make heads and tails...

We disagree theologicaly speaking but I hope to agree socialy..

I am observing what is said here...in favor and against...

Indenpendly of history and harsh situations of past I am very happy to see that some make distinction of whats is going on know in the world...some times bringing harsh linguage over themselfs..

I like what I see here....and hope to see more in tv....its the only way we will be able to set the diferences...

God bless!
 
:bism:

Thank you, sfontel; and I appreciate you being on here too.

I think that's what I'd like to see, that while we may have differences in creed, we do not have differences in how we approach one another as human beings.

I am here too....trying to contact Muslams....I have no personal contact with any....there a very few where I am...

I am reading lots of books, history....I read the Koran.....I am trying to make heads and tails...

We disagree theologicaly speaking but I hope to agree socialy..

I am observing what is said here...in favor and against...

Indenpendly of history and harsh situations of past I am very happy to see that some make distinction of whats is going on know in the world...some times bringing harsh linguage over themselfs..

I like what I see here....and hope to see more in tv....its the only way we will be able to set the diferences...

God bless!
 
:bism:



I'm as "real" a Muslim as any other. In Islamic basic legal definition, a person who says he is a Muslim is to be treated as a Muslim. Period. Full Stop. Dot. To do so otherwise is a corrupt, modern, aberrant un-Islamic practice that has flagrantly reared its head in the modern era.

The only Muslim capable of declaring a person(s) non-Muslim in Islamic law is a learned scholar and jurist of Islamic jurisprudence based on the apparent "behaviors" of that person or group, though scholars too have traditionally shied from doing so with the understanding that judgment is with Allah SubnahAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) and only done so when conscience has prevailed on them to undertake this odious arduous task to prevent or warn Muslims of any aberrance to preserve orthodox Islam.

Also, being a Muslim is quite a simple matter, which comprises of first and foremost declaring or believing in God and the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) as part of the kharijites and also accepting the 6 pillars of iman (faith).

Also, just as some Muslims have one believe that one is not a real Muslim, other persons would have one believe that a Muslim cannot be a true American. So, the one-sided rhetoric exists on both sides of the equation. And honestly, all one has to do is be patient and introspect at the allegation or accusation and if then finds that one's conscience sits right, ignore the negative voices or naysayers.

Personally, as a Muslim, I don't spend my time or my energies concerning myself with what this or that person may think about my "Muslim-ness" because all I know is that I have to be right with God, and therefore everything else is just background noise to me.



I awant to thank you for the query that I seemed to read in between your lines, which I'd like to answer, and I also want to say I appreciate you sharing the actual text of the verse of the Quran as I have always felt that it is a poignant and ocean-deep verse. Well, yes, in the Quran, the context itself refers to the Children of Isra'il, Muslims have historically and traditionally understood the verse to apply to how Muslims should conduct themselves. Muslim is one who "submits His will to God." You have to understand that Islam is set as a criterion by which to distinguish right and wrong, understand the forbidden and also how to conduct oneself in such a manner as to not be tempted into the forbidden, and also a means of using mental intellect and spiritual intellect to attain perfection in character and manners. Muslim scholars have used the verse as a means of juxtaposing the behavior required of believers to the behavior seen in organizations or individuals that commit un-Islamic actions like the one in San Bernardino.

For example, read the review of the fatwa (Islamic ruling) on the matter of attacks like we see in our modern time:

Thanks for your reply.

If I understand it correctly, the author of the fatwa is saying that isis and other kharijites, have strayed from Islam in their actions, but are still to be regarded as Muslims not kaffar?
 
Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)

As a Christian, I don't condone sex without marriage either! Many ppl in the USA are not Christians anymore, sadly. I say sadly because most of them have converted or grown up with atheism. They are not people of the book. There are a lot of cultural Christians nowadays, something I find difficult to understand. How can any person claim to follow a religion and not practice it in their whole life???

If someone put their feet on my table, I would think it very rude, too! I've never seen anyone do this lol. What I have seen some people do, that really disgusts me, is to wipe the sweat off their faces with my linen napkins. I don't think this is a sin lol, just gross! Offering good hospitality is important to me, so I say nothing and just wash it.

Yes, many people here are very good, too. Americans donate more money per capita to charity than any other country- if the statistics I read are true. Unfortunately, I have had a Muslim man ask me to commit zina with him because I was American. I was not dressed immodestly, even by Muslim standards. It was winter, and I was covered from head to toe! I told him I was a Christian and did not do that. When he kept hassling me, I said loudly that I would call the police. That stopped things, thank God. But I do not think all Muslim men act like him. In fact, I have met many who don't.

That's why I joined this forum. I got tired of hearing all bad about Muslims, and I imagine that many Muslims hear all bad about Westerners. The only way to overcome this media propaganda is to get to know each other.
 
:bism:

Well, you have to understand that the above quoted material is not the original fatwa (Islamic ruling) as the original fatwa reads like an "exhaustive piece of work," and what I quoted for you here is a mere review of the fatwa. Therefore, the quoted review includes criticism as well as noteworthy points about the fatwa.

Unfortunately, I don't have original access to the fatwa.

This review says that the the issuer of the fatwa held that Muslims who commit crimes like terrorism or fall under the umbrella of terrorist organization are kharijites and will therefore be considered out of the folds of orthodox Islam.

The reviewer, however, is leveling the criticism that the issuer of the fatwa could possibly be making the same mistake that the kharijites make which is to declare a person who professes to Islam "kaffir" (disbeliever) when that cannot be clearly established in any manner without going with a fine toothcomb through their intentions. The reviewer says that the issuer of the fatwa should instead have kept to the direct rebuttal of specific terrorist's misinterpretations. That said, the reviewer does seem to note that the issuer of the fatwa has probably written this harsh fatwa against terrorists declaring them as non-Muslims to "help potential terrorists think twice before allowing themselves to be radicalised." The reviewer finally notes with cautious optimism that that might be the case.

I do appreciate the issuer of the fatwa making "no bones about the matter" so-to-speak and on Islamic proofs declaring the Muslims who do this as kaffir, but the reviewer disagreed with this position, and I can respect the dissent of the reviewer because you and I can agree that intentions are in the domain of the unseen whereas Islamic jurists are confined to making Islamic legal rulings based on the "apparent" beliefs or actions of a person or group.

Thanks for your reply.

If I understand it correctly, the author of the fatwa is saying that isis and other kharijites, have strayed from Islam in their actions, but are still to be regarded as Muslims not kaffar?
 
As a Christian, I don't condone sex without marriage either! Many ppl in the USA are not Christians anymore, sadly. I say sadly because most of them have converted or grown up with atheism. They are not people of the book. There are a lot of cultural Christians nowadays, something I find difficult to understand. How can any person claim to follow a religion and not practice it in their whole life???

If someone put their feet on my table, I would think it very rude, too! I've never seen anyone do this lol. What I have seen some people do, that really disgusts me, is to wipe the sweat off their faces with my linen napkins. I don't think this is a sin lol, just gross! Offering good hospitality is important to me, so I say nothing and just wash it.

Yes, many people here are very good, too. Americans donate more money per capita to charity than any other country- if the statistics I read are true. Unfortunately, I have had a Muslim man ask me to commit zina with him because I was American. I was not dressed immodestly, even by Muslim standards. It was winter, and I was covered from head to toe! I told him I was a Christian and did not do that. When he kept hassling me, I said loudly that I would call the police. That stopped things, thank God. But I do not think all Muslim men act like him. In fact, I have met many who don't.

That's why I joined this forum. I got tired of hearing all bad about Muslims, and I imagine that many Muslims hear all bad about Westerners. The only way to overcome this media propaganda is to get to know each other.
Greeting and peace be with you, LaSorcia.

I am sorry to hear your experience with that Muslim man. I guess, he is also not White, isn't he?. Indeed, there is a negative perception among some non-White about White people that White people can sleep with anyone, put their feet on table when sit on chair. From where this negative perception come from?. Movies!. Hollywood movies often depict White American like this, just like they often depict Black people as criminal, Italian as mafia, Colombian as drug mafia. But of course, what depicted in movies often different than reality.

I've ever met and acquainted with few White people, like my mother English teachers from USA, foreign students in my city. They are good people. I myself have Christian relatives. They are pious Christians, few of them even church caretaker. I also studied in Catholic elementary school and got many great lessons from my teachers at that school who majority were nuns.

Every community, every society consists of good people and bad people. But we should not judge the whole community or society just because few of them are bad. Muslims are not always good too. Free sex among youth is big problem that happen in Indonesia which the youth that involved in free sex usually Muslim. Drink and Drunk habit among Muslim is another problem. It's ironic because my Christian relatives don't drink alcohol although with different reason.

Indeed, there is tendency among people which they judge another community only from the bad in that community and ignore the fact that there are many good people in that another community. This is why very important for people in the world to throw out prejudice and know each other with the clean hearts. In Shaa Allah (God willing), it will build better understanding between each other and make the world more peaceful.

:)
 
I have not had tv service in my home for over 15 years, and I stopped watching movies even before then. I found most of them disgusting, horrible treatment of women as sex objects, profanity, etc. Even the movies for little kids are sometimes not good. If people think Americans act like they do in films, no wonder they hate us!

About all I watch nowadays is children's shows: Sean the Sheep, Timmy Time, Postman Pat, and some Miyazaki films.

The man was from Pakistan living in the UK at the time. What I can't understand is, why do people move to the West, when they say they hate it? Who would want to live in a country they can't stand?

EDIT- Am I wrong, or isn't it a sin for a man to commit zina too? I thought it was?
 
:bism:

EDIT- Am I wrong, or isn't it a sin for a man to commit zina too? I thought it was?

Yup, you're not wrong. It's sinful for a man to commit zina too just as it would be for a woman.

Meh. Some men are creeps, doesn't matter religion or nationality or whatever.

Sorry you had to go through that though.
 

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