A modern day Caliphate - How realistic is it?

[Dawud_uk]

To be honest... Not very, at the moment.

It's got nothing to do with Islamic systems of government and law, and everything to do with the general sense of disunity between Muslims globally.

i dont think that is necessarily a problem, the prophet muhammad (saws) said we would split into different sects and we have. that doesnt prevent khilafa.

it is not necessary for all muslims to unite for us to re-establish islamic rule, it can happen in one place then spread inshallah over the years.

i personally think the most likely place for this is still afghanistan and pakistan border region.

 

[Güven]

1 - Went to the first world war when it probably shouldnt have.

2 - rebel agents of the allied forces in arabia - eg lawrence of arabia who promised the arabs of independent state and convined them to fight the Ottomans.

3 - too many attacks by too many nations (during the first world war)

4 - some say that the econmy was in bad shape of the Ottomans - mix WW1 with that = disaster.

5 - on a religious note - time was up for the Ottomans - If you look at the sultans of the Ottoman empire after Sulieman the lawgiver you will see that most of leaders were not realy acting like leaders - Instead they just gave the job to the Vizers.

6 - Linked with 5 the Ulema (religous scholars) lost authorty to the sultan.

I'm sure there there are many reasons to it too. - My opnion - too many attacks by too many people within and outside of the chaliphate.

EXACTLY , was about to say the same thing until I saw your post.

And the main reason was again ofcourse...Diversion/nationalism.

 

[Zafran]

EXACTLY , was about to say the same thing until I saw your post.

And the main purpose was again ofcourse...Diversion/nationalism.

salaam

yep and nationalism has been a problem ever since. The Muslim world has always been divided thanks to nationalism and has never been as united when under the Ottomans.

Western interferance has also played a great distraction.

peace

 

[Dawud_uk]

salaam

yep and nationalism has been a problem ever since. The Muslim world has always been divided thanks to nationalism and has never been as united when under the Ottomans.

Western interferance has also played a great distraction.

peace

nationalism was a problem when Muhammad (saws) was still with us otherwise there wouldnt be the ahaddith prohibiting it,

nationalism has continued to be a problem through the ummah's history, the muslims of spain and north africa for example divided between arab, berber and european reverts.

and nationalism was also a serious problem under the ottomans, speak to any arab of north african origin to find out how the turks treated non-turks.

and nationalism continues to be a problem today.

we continue not to learn from our mistakes and so are doomed to repeat them.

 

[Woodrow]

would it suprise you to know the khilafa has been destroyed before in the past and then come about again?

No that is no surprise. I am now trying to find reference as to how and why I came to under the impression that the next Caliph will be the Mehdi and there will no Caliphate until he comes.

 

[noorseeker]

isnt there too many people though, nearly 2 billion muslims to rule over

who would take on that responsibilty, children starving, people dying, the khalifah would have to answer to Allah swt for all this,

 

[Woodrow]

I hope that I dont break this discussion, but I would like to ask you people, why actually the last Caliphate, Ottoman, collapsed? What are your fact and opinions?

The mechanecs about how the Ottoman empire fell is quite complicated. But the reason is very simple. The leaders strayed from Islam, became secular and tried place National pride above Allaah(swt)

 

[جوري]

well...
for a while I thought it was theoretically realistic, then my one week 'vacation' in Egypt made me feel like it will probably not happen in my lifetime.. I don't think the birth place of the caliphate will witness its rebirth.. it will come from else where by far better Muslims...
I was really disappointed with everything there.. perhaps I was only looking for bad things and that is what I saw, or perhaps I didn't linger long enough to see the hidden better, but I'll have to take Egypt to be a representative of the middle east in general at the moment.. Everything burnt me there from the littlest things like how awful they speak and malign Palestinians, I mean I was showing them things on my Ipod which I had downloaded from youtube they dismissed, so it was a no wonder to me why they didn't want to open the borders to them, the same style western media has brain washed them without question.. they seem to seek the worst things out of the west but not the best.
I mean I can always turn my TV off the bad channels here and switch to something educational, well that is almost unheard of there.. None of the books I wanted I was able to get instead crappy literature every where, anything to turn their minds on to what is really important... I am telling you, I felt like I had stepped into a time warp.
teenage girls with the same nasty attitudes as the worst ones here, I was so surprised to see their heads covered because just about everything else wasn't, including foul language and ridiculous outfits like little run away hookers or drag queens.. as my uncle's wife said, a cover on the head should probably denote that it is high maintenance to style the hair and nothing more.

I felt sad.. I hope the rest of the so-called Muslim world is in a better place but I really doubt it. It will be nothing short of a miracle to change all that, as Allah swt doesn't change people until they change themselves, I won't even dwell into the rest as it is still taking me two weeks to recover... I believe the return of Islam will come from converts, and as the prophet stated, Islam began as a thing strange and shall return strange as it once was.. well that is where we are right now...

something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol...

Anyhow May Allah swt forgive me as I am probably a horrible Muslim myself...

 

[Thinker]

well...
for a while I thought it was theoretically realistic, then my one week 'vacation' in Egypt made me feel like it will probably not happen in my lifetime.. I was really disappointed with everything there..

Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers

 

[Dawud_uk]

Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers

The khalif and indeed any islamic authority has a duty to protend the dhimmi, the oldest christian communities in the world are in the muslim lands.

 

[noorahmad]

I consider the ottoman rule to be a monarchy, the sultan was not elected as Islam teaches us that the caliph need to be elected.
I dont think that the caliphate would work, but nonetheless we should try to realize it, or at least to have the intention

 

[Amadeus85]

something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol...

Anyhow May Allah swt forgive me as I am probably a horrible Muslim myself...

Hello SKye,
Its always best to visit countries that we want to discuss about. Thats why I avoid talking about countries that I never visited. That is why Your reflections are interesting. But still I think that Egypt is too big to know it for so short visit (unless You are born there). But I know this feeling, everytime when I see scandalous behaviour of people from my country.

 

[جوري]

Hi Sky,

That's an excellent example of how we (humans) see things not just as they are but through eyes preconditioned by our own cultural background and personal beliefs. I also spent some time in Egypt last year and one of the things that surprised me was the number of Christian churches there. In one town I counted as many Christian churches as there were Mosques. That left me with an impression that Egyptian Muslims were more tolerant than I had believed them to be.

Cheers

Having churches has nothing to do with the good or bad of Egypt.. Churches have always existed and even Jewish temples were looked after by Muslims, The caliph Omar Ibn Ilkhtab RA was invited to one of the oldest churches known (the holy sepulcher) I believe, and he accepted the invitation, when he was offered to pray there he declined, not because he didn't want to pray there, but because he didn't want Muslims to think it was OK to take churches for Mosques, in other words people should be allowed to have their places of worship undisturbed.

What I am taking about is something completely different and has nothing to do with culture and such... it has to do with what I ideally think should be obvious to all Muslims and how far gone they are to marginalize Islam to nothing more than the rituals, when it should be a complete way of life...

Egypt is secular and that is all there is to it!

 

[Najm]

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

InshaAllah it shall happen. The key is patience. Lets not hurry ourseleves. Lets build strong foundations. Lets bring Islam back to everyones hearts....

An overall team objectives can only be met by the efforts of each and every individual.

InshaAllah

FiAmaaniAllah

 

[salamfromrom]

Salam

"I believe the return of Islam will come from converts, and as the prophet stated, Islam began as a thing strange and shall return strange as it once was.. well that is where we are right now...

something probably disastrous will have to occur to spark a change in all those folks.. the best Muslims I saw in Egypt all around were the Malaysians that were there lol..."

Good news


You probably don't know this (mainly due to the total informational blockade by the russians) but in the North Caucasus Republics there is a real and very popular islamic insurgency against the Russian colonisers and opressors and their local accomplices.

I would suggest you visit the jamestown Foundation (a prestigious Washington DC conflict watchdog) which has a weekly newsbulletin about the situation.

You can visit it here http://www.jamestown.org/regions/thecaucasus/

Every day there are armed assaults by them the opressors, and these are sincere muslims who are not the al-qaeda type extremists and are not extremists at all. Except for a few hiccups like Shamil Basayev and his excesses (Beslan School siege) the vast majority of our caucasus brothers are good people who do not commit terror acts and actually follow the rules and limitations of jihad fisabillah.

The interesting this is that this United Islamic Insurgency movement is popular amongst the civilian population of these small nations and enjoy the support of many ordinary people, and they are united under the Banner of Islam and Have one Emir who by all accounts is a decent and kind hearted man who hates extremism and fights a good fight. These brothers (and there are thousands of them involved in direct combat, plus many thousands more who offer assistance such as food shelter etc)seem to actually be winning May Allah(swt) continue to bless them!


Just thought you should know this.

These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word.

Salam a leikum

 

[salamfromrom]

Edit:

Insead of saying "These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word."

I should have said:

Most of these These above mentioned mujahideen were not even praying before the 1994 Chechen war started, these are reverts in the truest sense of the word.

Salam

 

[yasin ibn Ahmad]

1 - Went to the first world war when it probably shouldnt have.

2 - rebel agents of the allied forces in arabia - eg lawrence of arabia who promised the arabs of independent state and convinced them to fight the Ottomans.

3 - too many attacks by too many nations (during the first world war)

4 - some say that the economy was in bad shape of the Ottomans - mix WW1 with that = disaster.

5 - on a religious note - time was up for the Ottomans - If you look at the sultans of the Ottoman empire after Sulieman the lawgiver you will see that most of leaders were not realy acting like leaders - Instead they just gave the job to the Vizers.

6 - Linked with 5 the Ulema (religous scholars) lost authority to the sultan.

I'm sure there there are many reasons to it too. - My opnion - too many attacks by too many people within and outside of the chaliphate.

I agree with brother Zafran.I also should say I believe that the flag of Islam will raise from where it was fallen down.Caliphate is related mostly politics and governing the state not religion.Relatively the most powerful Muslim country is Turkey, the successor of Ottoman Empire.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I agree with brother Zafran.I also should say I believe that the flag of Islam will raise from where it was fallen down.Caliphate is related mostly politics and governing the state not religion.Relatively the most powerful Muslim country is Turkey, the successor of Ottoman Empire.

you misunderstand totally, the religion is complete way of life, including politics, economics, social issues. there is not an area of life left alone by the deen.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings Thinker,

I believe Islam would benefit from a Caliph in the style of the Pope, a single head who makes the final decision on which interpretation is correct and one that stays out of politics.

A few points here:

1. Like I have already mentioned, differences of opinion on minor issues are acceptable in Islam. The earliest scholars of Islam differed on some minor issues and they were from the best of generations so no one person in this day and age is going to decide which interpretation is correct.

2. Islam and politics are inextricably linked so the only recognisable leader of Islam in any form would be the head of an Islamic state who would rule with guidance from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

At the moment there are so many ‘scholars’ and ‘sheiks’ giving their interpretation on what is and what isn’t that any Muslim with any viewpoint can find a scholar to agree with his interpretation of Islam.

I mentioned elsewhere that I think this is an exaggeration.

Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.

1. I'm not sure what you mean about a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Please clarify that.

2. Did you see my link about how a Caliph would be chosen?

Regards

 

[Muezzin]

Of electing a Caliph will never happen, if the Muslim world can’t agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem they’d never agree on who should be Caliph.

Er... the world at large can't agree on a statement regarding the Israeli/Palestinian problem, but that hasn't ground all voters' heads into the sand, has it?

In the case of a Caliphate, it is more to do with a general lack of unity between Muslims globally, which leads to petty sectarian squabbles. Simple differences of opinion become huge arguments become fights etc, and everyone forgets to say 'Hey, we're all Muslim, right?'

i dont think that is necessarily a problem, the prophet muhammad (saws) said we would split into different sects and we have. that doesnt prevent khilafa.

it is not necessary for all muslims to unite for us to re-establish islamic rule, it can happen in one place then spread inshallah over the years.

i personally think the most likely place for this is still afghanistan and pakistan border region.

Could be...