A non Muslim and an Aalim

[Muslim Woman]

A Non Muslim came to an Aalim and asked: Why
is it Not Permissible in Islam for a Women to shake
hands with a Men


▶The Aalim said: Can you shake hands with the
Queen


▶The Non Muslim said: Of course not, there are
only certain people who can shake hands with the
Queen.


▶The Aalim then replied: Our Women are Queens
and Queens do not shake hands with strange men.


▶Then the Non Muslim asked another Question:
Why do your women cover up their bodies


▶The Aalim smiled and got two sweets, he opened
the first one and kept the other one closed.

He threw them both on the dusty floor and asked the Non
Muslim: If I asked you to take one of the sweets
from the floor,which one will you take


▶The Non Muslim replied: The covered one of
course
▶The Aalim said: That's how we treat and see our
women,,,,.


▶The Non Muslim then asked: Show me God if he
exists.
▶The Aalim Replied: Look straight into the Sun
▶Non muslim Replied: I Can't see, the Rays are
hurting my eyes.


▶The Aalim Said: If you can't look at the Creation
of God then how will you be able to Look at the
Creator



▶Lastly the Non Muslim invited the Aalim to his
house and gave him some Grapes, the Aalim eat
them, then the Non Muslim offered him a cup of
wine, the Aalim refused,

the Non Muslim asked him
how come you Muslims are forbidden drink wine
and yet you eat grapes, although the wine comes
from grapes


▶The Aalim Replied: Do you have a daughter
He said yes,
▶The Aalim asked him could you marry her

▶The Non Muslim said no,

the Aalim said
SubhanAllah, you marry her mother and can't marry
her although she came from her too▶

A must read please ....

Awesome message!...



feel proud to be a muslim, treasure it and preserve the great gift of ‪#‎Imaan‬
which Allah s.w.t has blessed you with.Please share thisl simple yet very informative educational message with All your Muslim and Non Muslim friends

 

[Lady A]

very wise responses I would say!

May Allah bless us with knowledge as well as wisdom, :amin:

 

[sister herb]

These are good answers when non-muslims ask from us same matters.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

These analogies are superficially clever, and you are of course free to be impressed by them, but I don't think they stand up to even mild scrutiny. Please allow me to spare you the trouble of trying them out during a discussion with a non-Muslim. The responses you are likely to get are as follows:

A Non Muslim came to an Aalim and asked: Why
is it Not Permissible in Islam for a Women to shake
hands with a Men

▶The Aalim said: Can you shake hands with the
Queen

▶The Non Muslim said: Of course not, there are
only certain people who can shake hands with the
Queen.

▶The Aalim then replied: Our Women are Queens
and Queens do not shake hands with strange men.

How would this analogy work if the monarch happened to be a man?

▶Then the Non Muslim asked another Question:
Why do your women cover up their bodies

▶The Aalim smiled and got two sweets, he opened
the first one and kept the other one closed.

He threw them both on the dusty floor and asked the Non
Muslim: If I asked you to take one of the sweets
from the floor,which one will you take

▶The Non Muslim replied: The covered one of
course
▶The Aalim said: That's how we treat and see our
women,,,,.

Are we to conclude that women ought to be covered up because of what others want, regardless of what they themselves want?

▶The Non Muslim then asked: Show me God if he
exists.
▶The Aalim Replied: Look straight into the Sun
▶Non muslim Replied: I Can't see, the Rays are
hurting my eyes.

▶The Aalim Said: If you can't look at the Creation
of God then how will you be able to Look at the
Creator

Are we to conclude that looking at the Creator would hurt our eyes? Also, at least the sun is visible.

▶Lastly the Non Muslim invited the Aalim to his
house and gave him some Grapes, the Aalim eat
them, then the Non Muslim offered him a cup of
wine, the Aalim refused,

the Non Muslim asked him
how come you Muslims are forbidden drink wine
and yet you eat grapes, although the wine comes
from grapes

▶The Aalim Replied: Do you have a daughter
He said yes,
▶The Aalim asked him could you marry her

▶The Non Muslim said no,

the Aalim said
SubhanAllah, you marry her mother and can't marry
her although she came from her too

The man couldn't marry his daughter because of the incest taboo. Why is drinking wine being compared here to incest?

Peace

 

[Lady A]

Thank you for the opposing viewpoints [MENTION=2092]czgibson[/MENTION]! A lot of times, we tend to focus on what just seems right to us. An opposing viewpoint helps us build a bridge to understand and communicate better.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Hello


main point is God has wisdom behind All His commands . Those who have weak faith can't understand why God has forbidden so and so or allowed so and so . People with knowledge try to explain these with some examples . They could be right ,could be wrong .

And God Almighty knows Best.

Greetings,

These analogies are superficially clever, and you are of course free to be impressed by them, but I don't think they stand up to even mild scrutiny. Please allow me to spare you the trouble of trying them out during a discussion with a non-Muslim. The responses you are likely to get are as follows:



How would this analogy work if the monarch happened to be a man?



Are we to conclude that women ought to be covered up because of what others want, regardless of what they themselves want?



Are we to conclude that looking at the Creator would hurt our eyes? Also, at least the sun is visible.



The man couldn't marry his daughter because of the incest taboo. Why is drinking wine being compared here to incest?

Peace

 

[Abz2000]

How would this analogy work if the monarch happened to be a man?

the question was regarding women....

Are we to conclude that looking at the Creator would hurt our eyes? Also, at least the sun is visible.*

yup, moses pbuh got the shock of his life.
gravity is not visible, yet obvious to one who can keep a train of thought.
(Newton claimed that the moon was pulled by gravity despite being cast in a certain tangent - inertia i believe - just from observing the straight fall of an apple and then drifting off into deep thought).

The man couldn't marry his daughter because of the incest taboo. Why is drinking wine being compared here to incest?

both alcohol and incest are haram (illegal, forbidden),
the previous scripture mentions many occasions (some brow-raising) of incest commited due to drunkenness,
and anyone who has had the slightest experience with alcohol would tell you how easy it is to drift off into the depths of shameless and anti-social behaviour with no heed to God or the laws which God has prescribed.
alcohol is indeed an abomination and it can be proven as being such.

Drug-facilitated sexual assault occurs in two ways: when the perpetrator takes advantage of a victim’s voluntary use of drugs or alcohol or when the perpetrator intentionally forces a victim to consume drugs without their knowledge.

Alcohol is the most commonly used substance in drug-facilitated sexual assault.

Prescription drugs like sleep aids, anxiety medication, muscle relaxers, and tranquilizers may also be used by perpetrators.

Street drugs, like GHB, rohypnol, ecstasy, and ketamine can be added to drinks without changing the colour.

https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/drug-facilitated-assault

there are however some benefits of alcohol but the harm outweighs the benefit:

 

[soheil1]

Greetings,
How would this analogy work if the monarch happened to be a man?

The monarch is always a man
But is the man and the woman are the king and the queen, that meant they are married to each other and can shake hands

Besides, We are not just prevented from shaking non-blood-relative members of the opposite sex. We as Muslims must not do things that can harm us either physically or in terms of out reputation.

And it is true that the man considers himself the king and the woman the queen, but it is just inside their minds and that creates no kinship.

Are we to conclude that women ought to be covered up because of what others want, regardless of what they themselves want?

If they are Muslims, they must cover up as Islam requires; If not, they don't need to. It all depends on their choice of religion.

Are we to conclude that looking at the Creator would hurt our eyes? Also, at least the sun is visible.

I refer you to post #7.

The man couldn't marry his daughter because of the incest taboo. Why is drinking wine being compared here to incest?

The point was that not everything that derivates from something allowable is necessarily allowable.
The two are not necessarily the same.
wine contains alcohol and can harm you. there is a saying it will damage your face since you would do things that you would not do normally when you drink it. If you bestow your money to the poor, they will say you are intoxicated, and if you shout they will say he did that not the intoxicant. a fat tree appears to you like a straw and vice-versa, etc. And the reason mentioned in Quran is:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْخَمْرُ وَالْمَيْسِرُ وَالْأَنصَابُ وَالْأَزْلَامُ رِجْسٌ مِّنْ عَمَلِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَاجْتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ [٥:٩٠]
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

[TD="align: center"]﴿٩٠﴾ [/TD]
[TD="width: 100%, align: center"]
[/TD]

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَن يُوقِعَ بَيْنَكُمُ الْعَدَاوَةَ وَالْبَغْضَاءَ فِي الْخَمْرِ وَالْمَيْسِرِ وَيَصُدَّكُمْ عَن ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَعَنِ الصَّلَاةِ ۖ فَهَلْ أَنتُم مُّنتَهُونَ [٥:٩١]
Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Thank you for the opposing viewpoints @czgibson! A lot of times, we tend to focus on what just seems right to us. An opposing viewpoint helps us build a bridge to understand and communicate better.

What an enlightened approach. Thank you too.

main point is God has wisdom behind All His commands . Those who have weak faith can't understand why God has forbidden so and so or allowed so and so . People with knowledge try to explain these with some examples . They could be right ,could be wrong .

The people of knowledge could be right and they could be wrong? Then why listen to them? How about using your own critical faculties to assess the truth of what people are telling you?

the question was regarding women....

I think you've missed my point: the Aalim uses the queen as an example, but the rule on not shaking the monarch's hand does not exist because she is a woman; it exists because she is the monarch. The monarch could quite easily be a man, and in that case ordinary men would not be able to shake his hand. So the analogy would imply that men should not be able to shake hands with each other either. Is this in fact the case in Islam?

yup, moses pbuh got the shock of his life.

Fair enough.

gravity is not visible, yet obvious to one who can keep a train of thought.

But there is a massive amount of evidence supporting gravity as an explanatory theory. It explains so much, and the effects of its operation can easily be observed.

No evidence whatsoever has been found for God, and rather than explaining anything, a God theory actually requires additional explanation.

and anyone who has had the slightest experience with alcohol would tell you how easy it is to drift off into the depths of shameless and anti-social behaviour with no heed to God or the laws which God has prescribed.

Alcohol can be very harmful in excess, but you are exaggerating. There are many people who use alcohol in moderation with no ill effects.

Alcohol: Balancing Risks And Benefits

Peace

 

[sister herb]

I think you've missed my point: the Aalim uses the queen as an example, but the rule on not shaking the monarch's hand does not exist because she is a woman; it exists because she is the monarch. The monarch could quite easily be a man, and in that case ordinary men would not be able to shake his hand. So the analogy would imply that men should not be able to shake hands with each other either. Is this in fact the case in Islam?

This example just told that we treat women like they would be the queens. Maybe you can see the difference: muslims see women like would be the queens but not men like the kings. Yup, women can shake hands together - but they both are the queens.

Note they are just examples how to explain some basic habbits to non-muslims. Maybe you could advice how we can explain them better to people like... you, I mean non-muslims.

 

[Abz2000]

I think you've missed my point: the Aalim uses the queen as an example, but the rule on not shaking the monarch's hand does not exist because she is a woman; it exists because she is the monarch. The monarch could quite easily be a man, and in that case ordinary men would not be able to shake his hand. So the analogy would imply that men should not be able to shake hands with each other either. Is this in fact the case in Islam?

the difference hilighted appears to show that not everyone is interacted with in the same manner.
indeed the Messenger of God is held in higher regard when it comes to tone of voice or turning away when hearing him speak,
and God is held in the highest regard.
knighting salman rushdie is an insult to God and His messenger and requires sincere humble repentance.
the lady is held in different regard to men and you can't just touch up a non-mahram female.

the person giving the parable is put in an awkward position by the kafir questioner and a parable is not the same as an actual event - but since the aalim is finding it difficult to explain and get it through to the kafir that it is haraam - since the kaafir has problems understanding the basics, he used a parable. we sometimes do the same with children when it comes to answering questions whose answers are too difficult for the child to comprehend.

imagine walking up to a drunk atheist on the street and telling him it's time for prayer and that alcohol is haraam and requires istighfaar and repentance - in the absence of which he/she gets forty lashes? or that it's sunnah to use a miswak before prayer and also to gargle during ablution???...........
although you can immediately enforce the laws of God and should do so if you have the authority, you'll normally start in a kafir majority society by explaining the harms of alcohol and some of the reasoning behind what God has revealed, The parables just probe thinking and draw similarities, but are NEVER ditto.

In a Muslim majority society, you'd expect people to know the basics of God's laws and be in the process of learning more and one can resort to immediate enforcement of God's laws.

But there is a massive amount of evidence supporting gravity as an explanatory theory. It explains so much, and the effects of its operation can easily be observed.

No evidence whatsoever has been found for God, and rather than explaining anything, a God theory actually requires additional explanation.

cz,
you know and i know that you are suppressing the truth and lying, woe to you, forge not a falsehooid against Allah lest He destroy you utterly by chastisement.
it is understandable when one is ignorant and sceptical, but it is a heinous crime when one knows the truth, covers the truth, and then challenges the truth.

if you want to dispute after the truth has been made obvious, come, let us gather together, ourselves, yourselves, our people your people, our children and your children, then let us invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.
and if you decide to turn away, know that there is no God but Allah who knows what you conceal and what you reveal.

Alcohol can be very harmful in excess, but you are exaggerating. There are many people who use alcohol in moderation with no ill effects.

Alcohol: Balancing Risks And Benefits

so can magic mushrooms, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, ecstasy tabs, and shoe polish.
why then do you prohibit them?

 

[Abz2000]

Although born into an*Anglican*family, by his thirties Newton held a Christian faith that, had it been made public, would not have been considered orthodox by mainstream*Christianity;[114]*in recent times he has been described as a*heretic.[6]

By 1672 he had started to record his theological researches in notebooks which he showed to no one and which have only recently been examined. They demonstrate an extensive knowledge of early church writings and show that in the conflict between*Athanasius*and*Arius*which defined the*Creed, he took the side of Arius, who rejected the conventional view of the*Trinity. Newton "recognized Christ as a divine mediator between God and man, who was subordinate to the Father who created him."[115]*He was especially interested in prophecy, but for him, "the*great apostasy*was trinitarianism."[116]

Newton tried unsuccessfully to obtain one of the two fellowships that exempted the holder from the ordination requirement. At the last moment in 1675 he received a dispensation from the government that excused him and all future holders of the Lucasian chair.[117]

In Newton's eyes, worshipping Christ as God was*idolatry, to him the fundamental sin.[118]*Historian*Stephen D. Snobelen*says of Newton, "Isaac Newton was a*heretic. But*... he never made a public declaration of his private faith—which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs."[6]Snobelen concludes that Newton was at least a*Socinian*sympathiser (he owned and had thoroughly read at least eight Socinian books), possibly an*Arian*and almost certainly an*anti-trinitarian.

[6]In a minority view, T.C. Pfizenmaier argues that Newton held the*Eastern Orthodox*view on the Trinity.[119]However, this type of view 'has lost support of late with the availability of Newton's theological papers',[120]*and now most scholars identify Newton as an*Antitrinitarian*monotheist.[6][121]

Although the laws of motion and universal gravitation became Newton's best-known discoveries, he warned against using them to view the Universe as a mere machine, as if akin to a great clock.
He said, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."[122]


one can see the man's deep knowledge and open mind in his expansion of the understanding of scientific laws, and his study of various seemingly unrelated (though totally related) topics.
his sincerity holding the belief in one indivisible God despite irrational social stigma,
and his wisdom/pragmatism in keeping many of his convictions to himself while penning them for posterity. (his society was unable to bear the things he had to say so he left them for the rational thinker after him).
the man had the mind of a philosopher, a scholar of fiqh and a top class mufti (opener/expander/expounder) of knowledge.

it is therefore obvious that his belief in the One God was not a pretense due to social stigma, but a rational and logical conclusion derived from deep observation and ponderance.

here's an example of the man's ability to hold a long train of vast, rational, and logical thought while deducing and correlating:

Newton himself often told the story that he was inspired to formulate his theory of gravitation by watching the fall of an apple from a tree.[139]*Although it has been said that the apple story is a myth and that he did not arrive at his theory of gravity in any single moment,[140]acquaintances of Newton (such as*William Stukeley, whose manuscript account of 1752 has been made available by the Royal Society) do in fact confirm the incident, though not the cartoon version that the apple actually hit Newton's head. Stukeley recorded in his*Memoirs of Sir Isaac Newton's Life*a conversation with Newton in Kensington on 15 April 1726:

we went into the garden, & drank thea under the shade of some appletrees; only he, & my self. amidst other discourse, he told me, he was just in the same situation, as when formerly, the notion of gravitation came into his mind. "why should that apple always descend perpendicularly to the ground," thought he to himself; occasion'd by the fall of an apple, as he sat in a contemplative mood. "why should it not go sideways, or upwards? but constantly to the earths center? assuredly, the reason is, that the earth draws it. there must be a drawing power in matter. & the sum of the drawing power in the matter of the earth must be in the earths center, not in any side of the earth. therefore dos this apple fall perpendicularly, or toward the center. if matter thus draws matter; it must be in proportion of its quantity. therefore the apple draws the earth, as well as the earth draws the apple.

John Conduitt, Newton's assistant at the Royal Mint and husband of Newton's niece, also described the event when he wrote about Newton's life

In the year 1666 he retired again from Cambridge to his mother in Lincolnshire.
Whilst he was pensively meandering in a garden it came into his thought that the power of gravity (which brought an apple from a tree to the ground) was not limited to a certain distance from earth, but that this power must extend much further than was usually thought.
Why not as high as the Moon said he to himself & if so, that must influence her motion & perhaps retain her in her orbit, whereupon he fell a calculating what would be the effect of that supposition.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This example just told that we treat women like they would be the queens. Maybe you can see the difference: muslims see women like would be the queens but not men like the kings. Yup, women can shake hands together - but they both are the queens.

I still think the analogy is weak and inappropriate, and I've explained why above.

Note they are just examples how to explain some basic habbits to non-muslims. Maybe you could advice how we can explain them better to people like... you, I mean non-muslims.

I think Lady A has expressed it very well: "A lot of times, we tend to focus on what just seems right to us. An opposing viewpoint helps us build a bridge to understand and communicate better."

Muslim apologetic arguments are typically only convincing to those who already believe in Islam. I'm thinking of things like the "scientific miracles" argument or the "miracle of the Qur'an" argument.

To those of us who have not been convinced by Islam, these arguments are not obviously impressive, and it is very easy to see the flaws in them. Instead of "argu[ing] in a way that is best" (Qur'an 16:125), many Muslim apologists seem content to present arguments that have not considered opposing points of view in any great depth. There are exceptions to this, of course, but they are rare.

As the Qur'an says in 2:256, "truth stands clear from error", so I think in that spirit, Muslims should allow their sacred texts to speak for themselves. If people are convinced by them, then they will come to Islam; if not, then they won't.

Peace

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Abz,

I can't see the relevance of much of what you've written, so please forgive me if I don't respond to all of it.

the person giving the parable is put in an awkward position by the kafir questioner and a parable is not the same as an actual event - but since the aalim is finding it difficult to explain and get it through to the kafir that it is haraam - since the kaafir has problems understanding the basics, he used a parable. we sometimes do the same with children when it comes to answering questions whose answers are too difficult for the child to comprehend.

Thank you for comparing me to a child.

cz,
you know and i know that you are suppressing the truth and lying, woe to you, forge not a falsehooid against Allah lest He destroy you utterly by chastisement.
it is understandable when one is ignorant and sceptical, but it is a heinous crime when one knows the truth, covers the truth, and then challenges the truth.

This is an interesting one. How would you respond if I tell you that I don't believe I am lying? I have read the Qur'an, many hadiths and several seerah texts in an effort to learn more about Islam. I have several Muslim friends, and have taught many Muslim students. I have also been a member of this forum for ten years.

After all of that, I am honestly not convinced that Islam is true. You accuse me of the "heinous crime" of concealing the truth, but I find it hard to imagine what motivation I could have for secretly believing Islam but then arguing against it. Please believe me: I have looked into Islam and certainly had enough time to decide whether I believe it or not. I am not lying to you when I say that I do not believe in God and I do not believe Islam is true.

so can magic mushrooms, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, ecstasy tabs, and shoe polish.
why then do you prohibit them?

I don't.

Peace

 

[Abz2000]

cz cz cz ,

please do tell me the best way to live life in a global society with rationality and harmony that i may be the first to follow it,
just make sure it aint full of lies and deception.

 

[sister herb]

I still think the analogy is weak and inappropriate, and I've explained why above.

Do you understand it was meant just women and not men (as there was mentioned the queen) or is this just speculation like "someone might not understand"?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Do you understand it was meant just women and not men (as there was mentioned the queen) or is this just speculation like "someone might not understand"?

My point is that the analogy is faulty; it doesn't show what it sets out to show.

Abz: I'll answer your question when you answer mine. You've accused me of a "heinous crime". How do you respond to my defence?

Peace

 

[ardianto]

czgibson is right. The analogy that queen doesn't shake hand with random people is weak. That's why I prefer to explain about Muslim's standard of modesty when a non-Muslim ask about why Muslims don't shake hand with opposite gender, without using analogy.

Analogy of mother and daughter for grapes and wine is even weaker. If a non-Muslim ask why Muslims eat grape but don't drink wine, just tell him "you know the difference between grapes as fruit and wine. So why you ask this question if you already know that Muslims prohibited to drink alcohol?".

 

[Abz2000]

Greetings,



Abz: I'll answer your question when you answer mine. You've accused me of a "heinous crime". How do you respond to my defence?

Allah has not made for any man two hearts within his body,
how did you deal with Jesus the son of Mary?

the driver's license question holds the key:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiDCu83iJ1g

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Allah has not made for any man two hearts within his body,
how did you deal with Jesus the son of Mary?

the driver's license question holds the key:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiDCu83iJ1g

I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about now. Is this supposed to be relevant to our discussion in some way?

Peace