A Question Relating to the Bible being changed

[NoName55]

.............................

The original revelations of the torah, injil and zabor.....muslims are ordered to believe in those original revelations correct?
Ordered by whom? ........................
Peace.

Some people are far to clever for their own good ..., .... they just keep on and ... what languages did the Holy Prophets speeak? English?

show me just 2 So called Chritians who can quote chapter and verse (exactly same) from those Books


How many of you have memorized them in their original language, so that when a fraudster tries to alter 1 jot 1 iota will be found out at very first reading?

 

[don532]

Some people are far to clever for their own good ..., .... they just keep on and ... what languages did the Holy Prophets speeak? English?

either show me just 2 So called Chritians who can quote chapter and verse (exactly same) from those Books,

How many of you have memorized them in their original language, so that when a fraudster tries to alter 1 jot 1 iota will be found out at very first reading?

I know the Holy Prophets didn't speak English. And no, Christians don't generally memorize the whole Bible.

I am trying to learn. Surely you can answer a simple question and not attack the questioner. You don't make converts by attacking them.

If you think I am just doing this to try to be clever, you are wrong. I do not apologize for my desire to learn about Islam. Surely we can learn about each other's beliefs without resorting to insults.

Peace.

 

[Umar001]

Oh my goodness, I can't believe how a simple thread can end up turning into 'I challange you to do this and so forth'


Don, out of curiosity, do you know the methods of understanding the Qu'ran?

 

[don532]

Of course I do not understand the methods of understanding the Quran. What are they?

 

[NoName55]

I know the Holy Prophets didn't speak English. And no, Christians don't generally memorize the whole Bible.

I am trying to learn. Surely you can answer a simple question and not attack the questioner. You don't make converts by attacking them.

If you think I am just doing this to try to be clever, you are wrong. I do not apologize for my desire to learn about Islam. Surely we can learn about each other's beliefs without resorting to insults.

Peace.

you dont know when to quit!

Same question is answered for you a number of times, yet you keep coming up with same thing "believe in books because ..." To me it looked like an innocent query the first time, 2nd time I thought it was a misunderstanding but all the subsequennt repititions and now playing the innocent martyr betray something else to me

 

[don532]

you dont know when to quit!

Same question is answered for you a number of times, yet you keep coming up with same thing "believe in books because ..." To me it looked like an innocent query the first time, 2nd time I thought it was a misunderstanding but all the subsequennt repititions and now playing the innocent martyr betray something else to me

I apologize for bothering you. I truly thought in my specific questioning I was not repeating myself. Perhaps you all are right. I just don't get it.

 

[Hemoo]

well i have seen your last post mr. don532 and i apologize for you that my brother in islam has attaked you.

and i am also so happy that you really want to learn and know the truth and i ask my and your creator to guide all of us to what pleases him almighty

The order to believe in those original books came from ALLAH as its said in the Quran and also as said in the phrophet's saying

here is what the Quran said (three translation):

002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
PICKTHAL: The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
SHAKIR: The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.


and the hadith : in sahih bukhary

in the book of authentic sayings named Sahih bukhary in the chapter of belief (Faith)​

Narrated By Abu Huraira : One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.​

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.​

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour..." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.​

And I ask Allah Our Creator and Sustainer to guide every one to the straight path that leads to heavens and paradise
Amen​

 

[Abu Zakariya]

don

It is ordered by God to believe in these previous Scriptures.
And yes, because these Scriptures have been corrupted over time, we can only fully believe in the Qur'an and other Islamic sources.

 

[Umar001]

Of course I do not understand the methods of understanding the Quran. What are they?

I'm writing an answer right now, but I will just break it down simply into sound bite size.

As a Christian, you believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truths, thus teach you wonders and so forth, people read the scripture and derive their understanding from their 'Teacher' the Holy Spirit.

In Islam, we have aslightly different way, we have the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran explains itself, like one verse might be explained by another, and also, a verse might be explained by the statement or actions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, or by the understanding of the Prophet's companions.

If that makes sense?

 

[Hemoo]

i am sorry the previous hadith is in sahih bukhary

here it is the right hadith in sahih muslim in the book of faith


It is narrated on the authority of Umar Ibn al-Khattab,said: One day we were sitting in the company of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) when there appeared before us a man dressed in pure white clothes, his hair extraordinarily black. There were no signs of travel on him. None amongst us recognized him. At last he sat with the Apostle (peace be upon him) He knelt before him placed his palms on his thighs and said: Muhammad, inform me about al-Islam.
The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Al-Islam implies that you testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and you establish prayer, pay Zakat, observe the fast of Ramadan, and perform pilgrimage to the (House) if you are solvent enough (to bear the expense of) the journey. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (Umar Ibn al-Khattab) said: It amazed us that he would put the question and then he would himself verify the truth. He (the inquirer) said: Inform me about Iman (faith). He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, in His angels, in His Books, in His Apostles, in the Day of Judgment, and you affirm your faith in the Divine Decree about good and evil. He (the inquirer) said: You have told the truth. He (the inquirer) again said: Inform me about al-Ihsan (performance of good deeds). He (the Holy Prophet) said: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, for though you don't see Him, He, verily, sees you. He (the enquirer) again said: Inform me about the hour (of the Doom). He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: One who is asked knows no more than the one who is inquiring (about it). He (the inquirer) said: Tell me some of its indications. He (the Holy Prophet) said: That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and master, that you will find barefooted, destitute goat-herds vying with one another in the construction of magnificent buildings. He (the narrator, Umar Ibn al-Khattab) said: Then he (the inquirer) went on his way but I stayed with him (the Holy Prophet) for a long while. He then, said to me: Umar, do you know who this inquirer was? I replied: Allah and His Apostle knows best. He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: He was Gabriel (the angel). He came to you in order to instruct you in matters of religion.


salam

 

[NoName55]

I apologize for bothering you. I truly thought in my specific questioning I was not repeating myself. Perhaps you all are right. I just don't get it.

I have this habit of recording all my conversations, on websites or in person ( and I refer back to them). when I read

Greetings. Thank you for referring me to the article, which I read just now. There is much in the article that certainly differs from Christian beliefs, but one of the statements in there seems to sum up the answer to my question.

"If God Almighty loves the earth as much as you say, and He loves us so much, and He loved Jesus so much, then what difference does it make to Him which one of the things that He loves so much, that He is willing to destroy one of them for the other?

The whole idea is bizarre."

If one is to believe the Bible, which states the wages of sin is death, contains references to redemption from sin via sacrifice starting with the Jewish law, prophesies of the Messiah, and fulfillment of the law (which Jesus said he was on earth to do) in the killing of the sinless Jesus the perfect sacrifice, is changed and is corrupt and the ideas therein are bizarre, I see how that conclusion is drawn.

Thank you again for answering my question. Peace.

I truly thought the matter of Bible authenticity was resolved, and that we all knew where the other stood

 

[don532]

I'm writing an answer right now, but I will just break it down simply into sound bite size.

As a Christian, you believe the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truths, thus teach you wonders and so forth, people read the scripture and derive their understanding from their 'Teacher' the Holy Spirit.

In Islam, we have aslightly different way, we have the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran explains itself, like one verse might be explained by another, and also, a verse might be explained by the statement or actions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, or by the understanding of the Prophet's companions.

If that makes sense?

I think I understand that. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Umar001]

Greetings. I know I am showing my lack of knowledge on this subject, but I really would like to know the Muslim perspective on a couple of questions I have had for a long time.

Howdy, again, and welcome to the forum, lack of knowledge is something we all have, a characteristic that binds mankind, as Almighty God has told us that he brought us forth from our mother's wombs whilst we had no knowledge.

1. Why would the revelation given to Mohammad instruct Muslims to pay any attention to these texts, and even refer to them so highly, if they have been corrupted for hundreds of years at the time the Koran was written?

2. If the Koran instructs Muslims to read the books of God, why is the Bible illegal in some Muslim countries?

1. This is a question that many ask, alot of non Muslims who follow the Bible try to use this as evidence and so forth, but I will just ask you to provide us the verses if possible.

2. First we gotta find if God is telling Muslims to read the books of before and under what context.


Moving on, Grace your answer was pretty good, whilst I feel some parts might need to be clarified to avoid confusion, one part being:

So, when the Qu'ran speaks of the people of the Book as a reference to Christians, "the book" the Qu'ran is referring to is the original message of Jesus that should have been written down and that part of New Testament which was altered and scrapped by later leaders in the church.

Noticed it yet?? The part stating 'the original message of Jesus that should have been..' The reason I highlight this is because I have yet to find anywhere which indicates that the message of Jesus should have been recored or should have been safeguarded. The importance of this is that most people will then ask, 'well if it should have been written down then isn't God powerful enough to do that?' Many Christians ask me that all the time. May seem like a small thing but I feel it avoids alot of confusion later on.


Regards, Eesa.

Greetings. I'm trying to understand, not be critical. Can someone explain to me how the above says the writers of the Scriptures before 622AD changed them? What this says to me is woe unto someone that writes Scripture, says it's from Allah so that they may make money from it. Peace.

Az-Zuhri said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands. They then said, `This book is from Allah,' so that they acquired a small profit by it. Hasn't the knowledge that came to you prohibited you from asking them By Allah! We have not seen any of them asking you about what was revealed to you.'' This Hadith was also collected by Al-Bukhari.​

 

[don532]

I have this habit of recording all my conversations, on websites or in person ( and I refer back to them). when I read I truly thought the matter of Bible authenticity was resolved, and that we all knew where the other stood

I was asking some more specific questions about how the scriptures are treated in Islam and what the sources of those beliefs were. I was seeking more knowledge, and I guess perhaps I have asked enough questions for one day. I intend now to read the responses that are above this post those have so kindly taken the time to write.

Thank you and peace.

 

[don532]

Purest Ambrosia graciously showed me a link that is a website one can use to search the Qur'an. That along with what Al Habeshi and Hemoo have shared means I now have some reading to do. Thank you once again for sharing with me. I did find one very interesting verse right away.

Al-Baqarah 2:62:
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Perhaps from a Muslim perspective, even though Christians may be ignorant of the real truth, in spite of ourselves we may be destined for salvation. Now to get along on this earth....

 

[Woodrow]

Hello Don,

Having been born and raised as a Christian for many years I know the frustrations you face with some of your questions.

I find it to be a very valid question to ask who has told us the Bible and the Torah have been changed over time.

Quite simply I believe we can agree that if it is true that the three books did originaly come from God(swt) the message should be identical in all threee.

If the original content of the Torah and stayed there would have been no reason for an additional meassage from Jesus(as), However, there was a need for the Christian Gospels to have been revealed. If those had remained unchanged there would have been no need for the Qur'an.

So in all simplisity since I have found the Qur'an to be the true Divine word of Allah(swt) it can only mean that the Torah and the Gospels are no longer fully what they originaly were.

There is much in the Qur'an that does agree with the Gospels and the Torah, so this shows us that they did at one time posses the Truth. however, since there are now some parts that are in disagreement with the Qur'an, it means somethings have changed.

It all comes down to if we accept the Qur'an as being the true word of Allah(swt). 40 years ago when I was still in my twenties I came to the conclusion that the gospels and Bible were not the true word of God(swt) and I left Christianity. I then began a long search. @ years ago I came to the full understanding that the Qur'an is the only true word of Allah(swt) and that is when I reverted to Islam. In my entire life I never had one person ever tell me to revert or ask me too. This was an independent choice I conciously made after 40 years of fighting against Islam and all monotheistic religion.

 

[don532]

Hello Don,

Having been born and raised as a Christian for many years I know the frustrations you face with some of your questions.

I find it to be a very valid question to ask who has told us the Bible and the Torah have been changed over time.

Quite simply I believe we can agree that if it is true that the three books did originaly come from God(swt) the message should be identical in all threee.

If the original content of the Torah and stayed there would have been no reason for an additional meassage from Jesus(as), However, there was a need for the Christian Gospels to have been revealed. If those had remained unchanged there would have been no need for the Qur'an.

So in all simplisity since I have found the Qur'an to be the true Divine word of Allah(swt) it can only mean that the Torah and the Gospels are no longer fully what they originaly were.

There is much in the Qur'an that does agree with the Gospels and the Torah, so this shows us that they did at one time posses the Truth. however, since there are now some parts that are in disagreement with the Qur'an, it means somethings have changed.

It all comes down to if we accept the Qur'an as being the true word of Allah(swt). 40 years ago when I was still in my twenties I came to the conclusion that the gospels and Bible were not the true word of God(swt) and I left Christianity. I then began a long search. @ years ago I came to the full understanding that the Qur'an is the only true word of Allah(swt) and that is when I reverted to Islam. In my entire life I never had one person ever tell me to revert or ask me too. This was an independent choice I conciously made after 40 years of fighting against Islam and all monotheistic religion.

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

 

[Umar001]

Al-Baqarah 2:62:
Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Verse there is speaking with regards to the Christians and Jews and Sabians who were good at their time, right now it is impossible for a Christian or a Jew or a Sabian to hear about Muhammad properly, understand his message then turn it down and then still go paradise.

For the Jews of Moses' time, peace be upon him, they are included in that verse, the Christians of Jesus' time, peace be upon him, are included in that verse, but now, in our time, another Messenger has been sent, and it is upto us to follow this Messenger, and those who have the opportunity and know about him, but they don't follow him, then they are not included in the verse.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

Don you will find that Islam encourages us to search and to not accept on the basis of what others have told us. The final responsability falls upon each of us as individuals. We and we alone are responsible for learning what is true and what has been altered. Schollars in all all faiths have a duty to tell us what they perceive and why they perceive as they do, but it is up to us to read, learn and pray for guidance. We can can only be handed maps and guidance. But, because there are so many maps being handed out, we need to exam and see if the map will really get us to our destination.


May you be granted guidance in your search and may you always know that it is alright to ask questions. The only poor question is the one that is not asked.

 

[NoName55]

Woodrow, your post is very much appreciated. If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree, definitely. I am in the process of learning about Islam and the Qur'an right now because all my life I have been fed and accepted the Christian view. I am now looking for myself and questioning perhaps to the point of testing the patience of some. I am going back now to do some more reading.

no comment, just a note to self for posterity.

"If the Qur'an is from God then all three should agree"