Abu Hanifa and Some Atheists - Debate Thread.

[Pygoscelis]

no argument - just stating an opnion.

Same. And I haven't taken any offence to anything that's been said and assume no offence has been taken for anything I've said. We disagree and expressing each others views is how people learn. To say we all must agree to avoid perception of friction... gets us nowhere.

 

[Clover]

Same. And I haven't taken any offence to anything that's been said and assume no offence has been taken for anything I've said. We disagree and expressing each others views is how people learn. To say we all must agree to avoid perception of friction... gets us nowhere.

I am not saying to avoid the perception of friction, but the friction itself :statisfie

@TKTony, eh, I'd rather read topics that have already been through, and I do not want to fit Islam with Taoism, I just want to learn about it. That is a problem I had on another board, everytime I tried to get info, they tried to convert me cause of my sinful ways.

 

[KAding]

I'm not an atheist or agnostic but I respect what they believe - and see justification for what they believe. I am a taoist, I DO believe in a Universal god or Universal energy. But there is justification on both sides as to whether God truly exists or not. But seriously, why waste what COULD be your only life on an internet forum debating whether he COULD be real or not?? Go out and enjoy this beautiful world that God (or the Universe through completely natural processes) gave you.

Ahem, this forum and the people on it are part of this beautiful world .

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

those who have understood have only understand through meditation and purification.

those who have not understand, will never understand unless they go through the above with pure intentions.





* sincere advice *

 

[KAding]

Re: Abu Hanifa and some Athiests

1)
If the maker can exist yet be uncreated, why can't the universe?

Because we know the universe has certain characteristics that point towards it originating at one point. As For the creator, he does not have those same characteristics, so it is much more plausible for the creator to be uncreated.

So who created Allah, did God just pop up from nowhere, one second there was nothing, then there was God?

If God created the universe, he is outside the universe, thus also outside of time. This "time" is a physical construct. A part of our universe. According to relativity, space and time form a 4D space-time-continuum. According to the standardised theory, (empty) space is a physical construct. Put these two theories together, and it would follow that time also is a physical construct, a part of our universe. Speaking in terms of "one second and the next" is thus an inappropriate representation.

Great answer!

Though I suppose it still does not mean there was any intent or even sentience involved in whatever force or entity outside of our universe that triggered its creation.

 

[Trumble]

whatever complexities and informal objections atheists have toward a supreme being must be handled in their own private time, since they make up definitionsthat don't fit any standard understanding of "God''.

Ah... those would be the definitions that don't conveniently exclude any problems associated with the concept (such as the need to be 'created' according to the same reasoning as everything else) in order to avoid having to worry about them, then. :rollseyes

 

[جوري]

Ah... those would be the definitions that don't conveniently exclude any problems associated with the concept (such as the need to be 'created' according to the same reasoning as everything else) in order to avoid having to worry about them, then. :rollseyes

Nonsense- God by definition is the originator the universe, you can't originate and be a part of at the same time. You simply want a low common term to wrap your incredibly subscript human condition around and to exempt yourself from any duty toward your creator!

all the best

 

[Pygoscelis]

Nonsense- God by definition is the originator the universe, you can't originate and be a part of at the same time. You simply want a low common term to wrap your incredibly subscript human condition around and to exempt yourself from any duty toward your creator!

all the best

Why would a creation necessarily have a "duty" to its creator? And assuming it does, how far does that duty go?

 

[جوري]

Why would a creation necessarily have a "duty" to its creator? And assuming it does, how far does that duty go?

for a lot less sinister reasons than those that make you seek a job and obsequious to your bosses-- and the duties are all in keeping with your own gains/ benefits/ maintenance and those of mankind!

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Why would a creation necessarily have a "duty" to its creator? And assuming it does, how far does that duty go?

why would a child have a duty towards its parents...

 

[Gator]

why would a child have a duty towards its parents...

You guys didn't answer his question. How far should the duty go? Am I to imply from your response that we have the same duty to God as we have to our parents?

 

[aamirsaab]

Why would a creation necessarily have a "duty" to its creator?

To show gratitude and humility. Think about having a bratty emo and ungrateful kid. You as a father have provided a shelter/food/ security etc and one day he turns around and says: F**k you daddy! Not very respectful now, is it. And you'd probably want to slap the kid silly (I know I would, even if I wasn't the kids father!) Of course, the difference between God and a human father is that God reserves His judgement to give you time to repent; a human would find that much more difficult.

The least that kid had to do was show some a little respect or appreciation, but noooo. Not only does he blatantly ignore any good his father did, he then outright INSULTS him! (There are kids who actually do do that to their parents; some go one step further and physically abuse them...) So I think the father/son dynamic works in this case.

And assuming it does, how far does that duty go?

Prayer; following the set rules/laws (doing halaal stuff; staying away from haram stuff - at the very least it's for your own benefit anyway...). Pretty easy stuff to be honest.

 

[Gator]

Think about having a bratty emo and ungrateful kid. You as a father have provided a shelter/food/ security etc and one day he turns around and says: F**k you daddy! Not very respectful now, is it. And you'd probably want to slap the kid silly (I know I would, even if I wasn't the kids father!)

Now I understand, though I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to lock him in the basement and torture him (possibly forever if I could).

 

[aamirsaab]

now i understand, though i think the most reasonable thing to do would be to lock him in the basement and torture him (possibly forever if i could).

lol.

 

[جوري]

You guys didn't answer his question. How far should the duty go? Am I to imply from your response that we have the same duty to God as we have to our parents?

I believe I have answered the Q on the last page..
Your duties are to enjoin good, prevent evil.

Being dutiful toward your parents is a form of observing your duties toward God, so it taking care of the poor, so is fasting etc..

I have always felt the first 10 verses of suret al'moemnoon summed up ones duties perfectly:

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMsUWruRfY[/MEDIA]
​

 

[Gator]

Your duties are to enjoin good, prevent evil.

OK, then me and the Lord we're all good. Thanks for the reply.

 

[جوري]

OK, then me and the Lord we're all good. Thanks for the reply.

glad to hear it ..

you know winning the laureate for any achievement requires that it be submitted for a review by an awarding body...
I can't solely declare that I am a scientific saint, for having embarked on a cure for the common cold outside of academia without submitting my finds to the gruel testing of some scientific committee and their agreed upon standards!


In other words, I wouldn't speak for the 'Lord' -- since you seem to seek your goodness outside the established framework..

Now, don't get me wrong.. all great deeds are rewarded indeed.. just might not be in the fashion that you like.. and I think for some folks it is merely satisfying to be self-appraised.. but self-appraisal isn't the standard baseline that is set for moral achievements!

all the best

 

[Azy]

I think you miss the point of the analogy which is.. you have something there that requires your attention and/or explanation!

Well yeah, but with that situation there is at least an easy way of explaining it.

it has to do with the mere fact that it exists and I'd like to know why and for what purpose.. I think it is rather a natural thing for most humans...

I would agree completely, and it seems to me that we jump the gun a little. The way we tend to do things leads us to ask questions such as "why and for what purpose?" before ones like "is there a reason or purpose?".

I don't see how there can be none of the above mentioned.. life is about contrast.. how can you tell something is white unless you contrast it to something black? or something as cold unless you contrast it with something hot, or day time if you didn't have night..
there is no escapism from the state you find yourself in.. you might want to loan them a more skewed meaning things are the way they are mostly in contrast to other things, especially when comes to issues of morality or sensations..

Not sure I agree, how can you tell me what life is about or if it is about anything at all?
Obviously the pragmatic side of me has to deal with these things day to day; there's obviously conflict between the rational and emotional especially in adverse situations. When sensations and morality come into play there's no question that one feels they have value, but that's not objectively true. "Good" is essentially "whatever Good feels like", and can't really be defined otherwise and doesn't exist outside your thoughts about it.

I don't think that is why people take it up... certainly as a theist alot more is required of you than an atheist, I don't see how that could be more comfortable.. I rather think nothing is more freeing than being an atheist, and at the same time it bewilders me so, why they'd want to spend much of their free time arguing about utter nonsense considering the randomness of it all.. potentially your life can be over at any minute, why the misuse of time?

Again, misuse is a relative concept, there is no purpose to my existence and therefore no proper use or misuse of my time. Also, free is often not the same as comfortable.

When it comes to comfort at least in my experience it's a big factor. Certainly, more is required of you as a theist but that is fine since, as your rightly pointed out, a desire for answers and purpose pervades human thought. Religion gives people a sense of belonging and direction that to believers is worth a good deal of invested time and effort.

...what works in theory doesn't work in real life, and thus I can be willing to throw out any theory for its practical counterpart because ultimately that is what proves useful..

For all history we have been filling the holes in our knowledge, discoveries are stumbled upon such as this one and I'm sure someone will do the science necessary to find out why the old model is flawed and the new one works.

Now whether practical or theoretical it means nothing as it doesn't touch the principal.. It doesn't matter how sophisticated you think we have become ... I can say with confidence that science will never infringe upon theology

Quite true... Theology is the study of things we can't possibly know about, which to me seems less than useful even for those who are interested.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

OK, then me and the Lord we're all good. Thanks for the reply.

What you think is good and evil may not be correct. Only Allah, who is free from bias, can tell us.

A guy may see a lost child with a wallet in their hands and think of nothing except helping him.

Another guy may only focus on the wallet.

If you think the second guy is bad.... who the hek are you to tell us what good or bad is? It is all relative. The second is being more good to himself than the child. Vice versa for the first.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Not only does he blatantly ignore any good his father did, he then outright INSULTS him! (There are kids who actually do do that to their parents; some go one step further and physically abuse them...) So I think the father/son dynamic works in this case.

The father is always away on business trips while the kid raises himself. The brother keeps telling the kid the father exists, but the kid doesn't believe it. The brother tells him he should believe that the father is going to come back one day or when the father does he will lock the kid up in that basement mentioned above and whip him silly.

Prayer; following the set rules/laws (doing halaal stuff; staying away from haram stuff - at the very least it's for your own benefit anyway...). Pretty easy stuff to be honest.

But how far does it go? What do you muslims think of the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac where God gets Abraham ready and willing to kill his son?