Agnostic America

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dmvprof

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I'm an agnostic(non-religious) american who is trying to find tolerance in the midst of world events that have left me with a very low opinion of Islam.

I understand that I am probably mistaken about many of my perceptions, however, there are a lot of factual events that have caused me to form my current opinion about the faith. Events that I call indefensable and as such they form the basis of my opinion about Islam.

It seems all to easy to justifiy violence in Islam.

I see very little tolerance in Islam for other faiths.

I see Islamic communities imposing their faith on people that don't share it.

I see free association among peaceful worshipers in Islam with the violent Jihadi elements of Islam. Where killing innocent people becomes a theological debate about whether it is justified in the Koran(sp) And when it's all over, you leave as muslims all united within the Umma.

So please, if you think I am tragically mistaken about my perception, help change me. Show me why I'm wrong about these things. Show me why I should accept muslims as peaceful god fearing decent people instead of the terrible image that the events of recent years has given me.

Sincerely.
DMVPROF
 
Hey DMVPROF.


Welcome to the forum, and insha Allaah (God willing) - you will have a beneficial stay here. :)


First of all, theres been a big misconception about jihad ever since theres been so much attention focused on the Muslims. This confuses and actually makes alot of the non-muslims, and even some muslims fall for the propaganda that is on the media.

But like you have rightly done, instead of seeing what the anti-islamists are doing, you actually came to the muslims to find out what islam really is, so i really love that - because you're seeking the truth. Every human should have that trait, no matter what they are searching for/no matter what religion.


I'd like you to read this article a brother on the forum made, which may clear your misconceptions about what Jihad really is:

http://www.islamicboard.com/4609-post5.html


Within that, a few points that are explained are how in jihad, the following rules should be obeyed by the muslims:

1. War is to be waged only with those who encourage and engage in it.

2. Priests in churches, children, women, and the elderly must never be harmed.

3. Sown fields must not be damaged.

4. Treaties and agreements must not be broken.

5. Animals must not be harmed.

6. There must be no cruelty and torture.

7. Towns must not be destroyed​


To get a basic idea about what islam, the actual religion is; please check the following site insha Allaah (God willing.)

www.beconvinced.com


Hope you have a enjoyable, yet beneficial stay here. :) Take care.



Peace.
 
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Hello Fi_Sabilillah,

Thanks for the response, it certainly give me hope about my efforts here.

Those "rules" you posted sounded very civil to me. But I have to ask, how are they so easily disregarded by so many who claim they are following the teachings of Muhammed?

And the other big question for me is how are so many good muslims so passively associated with muslims that would commit terroristic acts?

Looking at polling numbers, at the very least, 1 in 4 muslims supports suicide bombing against the United States. That is unbelievable. In Morocco, it was 1 in 2.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200507\FOR20050715b.html

So why don't we see a massive effort of the majority of Muslims to rid their Mosques and their communities of this? What is being done to defend your faith from these people?

I saw a show on PBS where an Imam from the Mosque in England where Richard Reed prayed said that he knows that there are pro-violence Jihadi recruiters operating within his Mosque, but that he can't do anything about it. Why Not?

If I were a churchgoer, and I went and heard of a group with the church that wanted to bomb some building because they did something to offend them, I would immediately go to the authorities, and I would never go back to that church again.
 
Hey again.


If you see the Qur'an (word of Allaah - God) and the Ahadith (ways of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family); our two sources of guidance. You will see these rules within there.


First of all, you have to realise that muslims should abide by the rules, and if it is ordered - it is mandatory on them to follow that. If anyone breaks the laws, without a just reason - then it is a sin. This doesn't mean that everyone follows the laws, not everyone knows the rulings either.


In history - the crusaders use religion as an excuse for their fighting. Even though they totally contradict to what Jesus (peace be upon him and his beloved family) preached. The same way, some muslims fight without following the true rulings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family.) Even though it may not be permissible.


The reason why some muslims dont condemn the suicide bombings is because they feel that their muslim brothers and sisters are dying in the world - yet no-one seems to care. The US president sits back and attacks, the UK prime-minister does the same. The rest of the nations just laugh in the face of the muslims, so what other alternative do the muslims have?

If a muslim supports the people in palestine, kashmir, chechnya, or in any muslim country that is being attacked by the non muslims, even if its just by wealth - their classed as supporting the terrorists. Do you think thats fair? Just check all the people in guantamo bay, and you'll realise their all innocent citizens, yet their being arrested on suspicion of terrorism. Check all the countries that are being fought against in the world, and you'll realise that nearly all these countries are muslim countries.


And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" (Qur'an 4:75)


Its our duty to protect our muslim brothers and sisters, because what help have they got? Do you really believe that the US has gone to give peace to the muslims, or have they gone to steal the oil thats there? This is all that they keep quiet, because they dont want to show their true motives.


Just think twice when you watch the news, and ask yourself - who's the real terrorist?



wa Allaahu a'lam. (and Allaah Almighty knows best.)


Peace.
 
Fi_Sabilillah

Wow, apparently my fears are true. Instead of condemning the violence, you have provided a justification for it.

I have to ask, if there is general support for violence towards the west in Islam as you say, then why shouldn't America and all western countries expel all Muslims from our countries and proceed straight to an all out war that will result in the utter destruction of every muslim country on the planet.

Do you want America to stop buying Oil from Muslim Countries? Even though it is their primary source of wealth? Do you want America to stop defending the shipping lanes all over the planet that allows Muslim Countries to have access to oil markets?

As soon as we figure out a way around dependancy on oil, what do you think will happen to these countries who depend on a steady flow of American money?

I don't think things are as simple as you have portrayed them.
 
:sl:
You misunderstood, dmvprof. Islam is a peacefull religion - YES. However, we are allowed to fight back as a last resort and only as a last resort, after negotiations have failed for example.

Sadly, there are always a few who break the rules and the media often concentrates on them - not always depicting the better image of muslims on the whole who are law, abiding citizens.

Violence is a human trait - it's always going to be justifiable :).
 
dmvprof said:
Fi_Sabilillah

Wow, apparently my fears are true. Instead of condemning the violence, you have provided a justification for it.
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Not to my understanding. One can easily understand what drives people to commit such acts, yet at the same time one can condemn the act itself. Case in point - suicide bombers. I can see why they do it. I still think it's wrong.

I have to ask, if there is general support for violence towards the west in Islam as you say, then why shouldn't America and all western countries expel all Muslims from our countries and proceed straight to an all out war that will result in the utter destruction of every muslim country on the planet.

Do you want America to stop buying Oil from Muslim Countries? Even though it is their primary source of wealth? Do you want America to stop defending the shipping lanes all over the planet that allows Muslim Countries to have access to oil markets?
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Well, I and many other Britons and Americans would just like it better if our leaders didn't lie about the real reasons they went to war ;)

I'll paraphrase Malcolm X when describing the Islamic attitude to living life: Be kind, be courteous, be polite, but if anyone hurts you, you have a right to defend yourself.
 
Muezzin said:
Not to my understanding. One can easily understand what drives people to commit such acts, yet at the same time one can condemn the act itself. Case in point - suicide bombers. I can see why they do it. I still think it's wrong.
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Would you allow yourself to worship with such people? Or would you distance yourself from them?

Well, I and many other Britons and Americans would just like it better if our leaders didn't lie about the real reasons they went to war ;)
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I wonder, how do you think we have benefitted from this war? Oil prices are higher than ever and are still climbing. Our debt is huge and this war will end up costing at least a trillion dollars by the time it's over. We haven't taken oil from Iraq for nothing. Their oil is sold on the market just like everyone elses. What exactly are we getting for this?

The idea that we went to war because we're greedy is just nonsense. This war is the biggest liberal project since the Marshall plan rebuilt Europe.

I'll paraphrase Malcolm X when describing the Islamic attitude to living life: Be kind, be courteous, be polite, but if anyone hurts you, you have a right to defend yourself.
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OK, but how do you defind "hurt". Sticks and stones may break my bones, but WORDS will never HURT me.
 
dmvprof said:
Would you allow yourself to worship with such people? Or would you distance yourself from them?
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In terms of 'would I be friends with them'? Nope. A man is judged by the company he keeps and I don't want to end up in Guantanamo man :p

In terms of 'would I worship in the same mosque' as them? I don't know the personal history of each and every Muslim in congregation, just as I don't know the personal history of each and every person I pass on the street. There could be murderers brushing past me every day, but I'm none the wiser and as such don't drive myself mad with paranoia.

If I know a particular guy is dodgy, of course I will stay away from him.

I wonder, how do you think we have benefitted from this war? Oil prices are higher than ever and are still climbing. Our debt is huge and this war will end up costing at least a trillion dollars by the time it's over. We haven't taken oil from Iraq for nothing. Their oil is sold on the market just like everyone elses. What exactly are we getting for this?

The idea that we went to war because we're greedy is just nonsense. This war is the biggest liberal project since the Marshall plan rebuilt Europe.
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Fine.

OK, but how do you defind "hurt". Sticks and stones may break my bones, but WORDS will never HURT me.
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I never said they would. I think these acts and threats of violence are wrong in the circumstances, especially considering the Prophet (peace be upon him) would put up with far worse treatment and still ended up being one of the most influential men in history.

On the other hand, for example, if one is being beaten up, one has every right to defend oneself, Islamically, morally and legally.
 
:sl:

If someone came to your home, your dwelling, where your children, wife, and parents live and start throwing you out, shooting your kids and parents, and your fought back against them and resisted, would that be justified? It definetly would, woudnt it? Then thats exactly whats happening in Palestine for example. So for that, you would label them terrorists? You would label the whole religion as a religion of violence?

I see and understand why the suicide bombers are doing what theyre doing, and i believe they have a good reason for it. But the fact is, suicide is wrong in our religion along with the murder of other humans so i am against them.

OK, but how do you defind "hurt". Sticks and stones may break my bones, but WORDS will never HURT me.
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The people there werent hurt by simple words. They were bombed, the children were shot and killed. Their homes were destroyed. Imagine coming home to see it in rubble. You people cant imagine that can you? Thats never happened in the west, but over there its a reality, something they face everyday. And you call them terrorists when they resist? Define terrorism. Bombing civilian homes and killing innocents is terrorism. That is what Isreal and America is doing over there. Thats reality, dont beat around the bush and go around labelling others as 'terrorists' when it is America and its president who's a war criminal.

Go back in history, look at vietnam, cambodia. You are blind to that arent you. It was this country that bombed them reapetedly oblitering the entire country during the cold war. And now when people are resisting you, you dare call them terrorists. Ha, as Malcolm X said: "its a case of the chickens coming home to roost."

Its time America faced the illusion of democracy and freedom its set around itself.
 
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salam

welcom to da forum hope u v a good n brnrficial stay :)

lookin 4wrd to ur posts :)

:thankyou:
 
Greetings,

So, you don't think democracy and freedom are good. I suppose you think that there should be a totalitarian theocracy that is run by an elite group of leaders who will then impose their beliefs and understanding on everyone else.

Such a notion is disgusting to me. And if there is anything I would fight and die for, it would be resistance to that.
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I was talking about the American ideology of freedom. It is freedom that has caused it to be hated in many parts of the globe.

A former luetenent colonel in the US Air Force, Robert Bowens, who had flown combat missions in Vietnam, and then became a Catholic bishop said so truthfully in an article he wrote for the National Catholic Reporter:

"We are not hated becuase we practice democracy, value freedom, or uphold human rights. We are hated becuase our government denies these things to people in the Third World countries whose resources are coveted by our multinational corporations. That hatred we have sown has come back to haunt us in the form of terrorism....Instead of sending our sons and daughters around the world to kill arabs so we can have the oil under their sand, we should send them to rebuild their infrastructure, supply clean water, and feed starving children....
In short, we should do good instead of evil. Who would try to stop us? Who would hate us? Who would want to bomb us? That is the truth the America people need to hear."
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I do not support totalitarianism nor any dictatorship etc. My point was that, the America now is using freedom and democracy as an excuse to 'liberate' the Muslims. That is what they are supposed to have done in Iraq, and that is what Bush hinted at they will do in Iran in his State of the Union speech last week.

Regards.
 

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