Agnostic mind

[adi8putra]

i've heard it on so many occasions. err...what actually is Agnostic?:hiding:

 

[snakelegs]

i've heard it on so many occasions. err...what actually is Agnostic?:hiding:

please read my earlier post on this thread - message #4
an agnostic is simply a person who doesn't know, who believes that god is unknowable.
but actually, agnostics are very varied in their views.
there is no Official Party Line among agnostics.
we don't know.

 

[adi8putra]

:giggling: thanks dude.... no harm's in asking? ain't it?:hiding:

 

[wilberhum]

he never was a real muslim in the first place, if he is athiest now.

You never knew the person. You have 30 seconds of insight from a friend he had and you think you have the knowledge level to judge him?
Seams quite vain to me. :hiding:

 

[wilberhum]

so nakelegs and wilberhum you believe in the existence of God..yet you believe he took a grand vacation and left us to do as we please on earth?

I don't know what he did. Now is that a good agnostic response or what. :giggling:

 

[GARY]

hi gary,
i would guess that every agnostic is different - we are sort of like the anarchists of religion. so what i say will only be about me. i was raised in no religion and have never belonged to one. i don't really like the idea of organized religion. i don't think god belongs to any religion.
i've never really concerned myself much with religion and have only recently become somewhat interested in comparative religions.
i do not believe that there is One True Religion (one size fits all). i think ultimately, an individual's relationship with god is just that - individual - even within the same religion. i think all religions are true - for their followers - and they all have some good things to offer. on some level their differences are not as different as they seem to be on the surface.
i believe that god is unknowable and will always remain a mystery. i am quite comfortable with this because i prefer questions to answers. i am not confused about it and see no reason to be, because i don't believe in a subject called Truth. i think truth is different for each person and doesn't exist as an absolute. there is no "right" and "wrong" when it comes to religion, or belief systems.
the idea of "proof" when it comes to religion is rather absurd.
i don't understand atheists - how a person can believe in not believing. some atheists are quite missionary about it too.
personally, i think god is one, but this is more for philosophical reasons. some religions break it down into attributes and worship (or seem to worship) the attributes, but that really doesn't make any difference - it's still god - just a different way of seeing.
hmmm.... i guess that's enough for now.
there's nothing wrong with confusion - shows you're thinking. better confusion that Knowing the unknowable.

The only thing that all agnostics have in common is that they are agnostics.
I’m neither confused nor unconvinced.

I basically have two beliefs.
There is a god.
No one has any knowledge about him.

Thanks to both of you. It seems you have helped me to realize something. I am an agnostic. I believe in God, and I don't think anybody knows much about him.

 

[- Qatada -]

The muslims know about their Creator, and if you have any form of opinion regarding what i said earlier. Then i'd like to see your response to that.

:salamext:


Islam is the most basic of religions. You believe that their is a Creator, and He wants to be worshipped Alone. So He sends messengers to mankind to convey that message, and Allaah himself chooses what ways people will worship Him. What's the point of God creating a creation - without having nothing to do with it? And why do some people suffer and others oppress? This is why we believe in judgement day, the ones who were oppressed will retaliate, and the oppressors will be judged accordingly.


It's that simple. Yet people think that Allaah has a son, or daughter, or dad? Or that He has associates which are made out of clay etc? What kind of logic is that.. but that is the difference between islam and any other form of belief.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace/

 

[wilberhum]

The muslims know about their Creator, and if you have any form of opinion regarding what i said earlier. Then i'd like to see your response to that.

What you know, is simply part of your belief system.
I believe that you believe. It all comes down to belief.

Besides the thread is "Agnostic mind" not "Theist mind".

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings,

A Muslim view on agnosticism can be read here:
Agnosticism by Dr. Laurence Brown MD

 

[wilberhum]

All in all it was an interesting read. But I find the following statement quite bias and does not apply to any agnostic that I have ever talked to.

Most often, however, the religiously unmotivated utilize the term to excuse personal disinterest, attempting thereby to legitimize escapism from the responsibility of serious investigation into religious evidences.

And

Most often, however, the religiously unmotivated utilize the term to excuse personal disinterest, attempting thereby to legitimize escapism from the responsibility of serious investigation into religious evidences.

And, at least for me the following is nothing more that theist bigotry.

Agnosticism has practicality for those who feel the need of a theological defense system.

As far as

a fox without a tail

I find that superior to the tail wagging the fox.

All Agnostics think alike just like all Muslims think alike.

 

[snakelegs]

The only thing that all agnostics have in common is that they are agnostics.
I’m neither confused nor unconvinced.

I basically have two beliefs.
There is a god.
No one has any knowledge about him.

:giggling: ;D ;D ;D
you said it all!

 

[snakelegs]

I don't know what he did. Now is that a good agnostic response or what. :giggling:

haha! you crack me up - you're soooo funny!

 

[snakelegs]

this is the way i see it.
there can be only one God.
it is up to the individual to find out about this God and accept the truth. Finding God should be done with an open mind and since there is only one God there can be only one true religion. no one religion has been around, unchanged since the begining of time, so you have to look around and find what fits your perception best. it is not as simple as "ill look for a religion which is easy to follow", you have to examine each religion and find your own truth.
may we all be guided.

keep in mind what wilberhum said:"The only thing that all agnostics have in common is that they are agnostics."
some agnostics are neutral about whether or not there is a god - they don't really concern themselves about this, one way or the other. i felt that way when i was younger.
now i do believe there is a god. i respect every one's religion. from my standpoint, they are all paths to god, and can all be potentially very good, depending upon how the individual interprets and applies it in their life. they can also potentially be bad - when they lead to yet more divisions and hatred among people. but i don't think some religions are right and others are wrong.
we can agree that there is only one god. but this doesn't necessarily require a religion or that belief in one god automatically requires there to be only one true religion or that those who choose to see god in 10,000 pieces are wrong. personally, i don't think one needs a religion in order to relate to god - in fact, for me i think it could even be a hindrance. so i would never be looking for a religion to get closer to god. i don't believe that god belongs to any religion. muhammad said it well "to you, your religion, to me, mine". (i would add your "religion or lack of")
from my view i am not right and you are not wrong. we're just on a different road. i agree with you 100%: "...find your own truth. may we all be guided" - for you, islam is the truth and for me no religion is. but, guidance we can all use!
i hope this makes sense.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

All in all it was an interesting read. But I find the following statement quite bias and does not apply to any agnostic that I have ever talked to.

Most often, however, the religiously unmotivated utilize the term to excuse personal disinterest, attempting thereby to legitimize escapism from the responsibility of serious investigation into religious evidences.

And

Most often, however, the religiously unmotivated utilize the term to excuse personal disinterest, attempting thereby to legitimize escapism from the responsibility of serious investigation into religious evidences.

First off, is it just my eyes or are the two statements the same?
You would probably say that you are not interested in a serious examination of scriptural evidences because you don't believe or don't have any way of knowing if anything in the scriptures is from God. But that is exactly what is being mentioned above. Your agnosticism is the term you are using to describe your reasons (Brown uses the word 'excuse') for being disinterested in scriptural examination. Dr. Brown's argument is, "Why should it matter?" A scriptural examination - and Dr. Brown has performed an extensive and very insightful one in his book FFC - can reveal patterns and a common theme in revelation that will lead you to a greater understanding.

And, at least for me the following is nothing more that theist bigotry.

Agnosticism has practicality for those who feel the need of a theological defense system.

It is certainly a theist assertion but I am not sure why you have chosen to label it as bigotry. Bigotry is intolerance to different opinions, no?

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

but this doesn't necessarily require a religion or that belief in one god automatically requires there to be only one true religion or that those who choose to see god in 10,000 pieces are wrong.

But surely you agree that the truth cannot be self-contradictory. Either someone who says there is only one God is right, or He is wrong. Either someone who says the Qur'an is the revelation from God to be implemented by human beings is right or he is wrong. Religions with mutually contradictory theologies and creeds cannot all be simultaneously true.

personally, i don't think one needs a religion in order to relate to god - in fact, for me i think it could even be a hindrance.

If we accept the proposition that there is one God, we have to look for the most plausible explanation.

Now if you believe in God, do you think that a true Lord would not be watching over His creation in Supreme Control? Do you think that God created us in sport without any purpose and left us to suffer in the confusion of this world? That is not logically coherent. I cannot fathom a God who is supposedly a divine version of a careless, umindful playful child, who creates and abandons creation in chaos. I believe such a concept of God is invalidated in light of what atheists call 'the problem of evil'. If this God is good then why does He abandon us to purposeless lives rent with chaos and evil? No, I believe in a God who is allpowerful, in control and has placed us here for a purpose.

Qur'an 21:16-18. And [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play. Had We willed to indulge in a pastime, We would indeed have produced it from within Ourselves - if such had been Our will at all. Nay, but we hurl truth against falsehood and it crushes the latter and behold - falsehood withers away. But woe to you for that which you ascribe [to God]!

The notion that God is in need of some amusement and pastime, let alone through the confusion and suffering of others, is certainly illogical.

You say that religion is a hindrance in our relationship with God. I believe this is a faulty understanding of religion. Islam means, literally, submission to God. We recognize God as the supreme Deity of Our Universe and consequently we submit to Him, accept His Will, come closer to Him through enjoining righteousness, forbidding evil and implementing the way of life He has ordained for us. Through our loving devotion to God we are able to come closer to Him and attain inner peace and tranquility.

If you agree that logic and reason should be the guiding force in our investigation - we should not accept a doctrine that is illogical, right? So then we should examine the messages to determine which is the most coherent and comprehensive. The Islamic message is all this. This is why the Qur'an says:

2:130-131. 130. And who turns away from the path of Abraham except one who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous. When his Lord said to him, "Submit (Ar. Aslim*)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (Aslamto*) to the Lord of the Universe.

*The verb for Islam; submission

The verse is truly accurate in its wording - how can someone turn away from the path of submission to God if they believe in Him?? Surely such a person befools themselves.

i don't believe that god belongs to any religion.

It is not that God belongs to a religion, it is that submission to the Creator is the natural way ordained for all creation.

muhammad said it well "to you, your religion, to me, mine". (i would add your "religion or lack of")

Firstly, its from the Qur'an 109:6, not the words of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Second, it is not something that should be stripped of its context. It is not validating other religions, on the contrary it is opposing compromising the pure and pristine code ordained by God by melding it with the man-made doctrines as some people in the time suggested.

Regards

ps. if Gary feels this is diverting from the thread topic I'll move it to another thread

 

[wilberhum]

First off, is it just my eyes or are the two statements the same?

My cut and paste skills failed me. Sorry about that.

I meant to post and agreement.

an Agnostic is a “person who believes that the existence of God is not provable.”[
the Agnostic defends the right to such belief, just so long as proof is not claimed.

You would probably say that you are not interested in a serious examination of scriptural evidences because you don't believe or don't have any way of knowing if anything in the scriptures is from God.

Probably not. There are serious obstacles that would have to be overcome long before we get in to scriptures. We have been down this road before. You can not resolve those obstacles and I, as a guest, have no intention of stating all of those obstacles.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

As for teh origenal question of this thread;
If an agnostisist truly has a lack of input , by no fault of his own, then he cannot be blamed for it. But such persons, when they start investigating Islam Ususally come to accept it. Now the key words here are: "by no fault of their own. " Because there's also a lot of people who block out imput. even if they do research they are already determined not to accept what they find.
So If I would give an agnostic any advice, it would be: Be honest to yourself!

 

[bint_muhammed]

As for teh origenal question of this thread;
If an agnostisist truly has a lack of input , by no fault of his own, then he cannot be blamed for it. But such persons, when they start investigating Islam Ususally come to accept it. Now the key words here are: "by no fault of their own. " Because there's also a lot of people who block out imput. even if they do research they are already determined not to accept what they find.
So If I would give an agnostic any advice, it would be: Be honest to yourself!

exactly! you took the words out my mouth!

 

[snakelegs]

But surely you agree that the truth cannot be self-contradictory. Either someone who says there is only one God is right, or He is wrong. Either someone who says the Qur'an is the revelation from God to be implemented by human beings is right or he is wrong. Religions with mutually contradictory theologies and creeds cannot all be simultaneously true.

i think it is almost impossible to make my feelings understood to a person who follows a religion, but i'll try. until gary asked the question that started the thread, i've never really given my agnosticism much thought at all. so you are making me think!
what if there is nothing called "The Truth" as an absolute? what if each person has to find their own? i certainly don't feel like i have a monopoly on "The Truth" either - no one does, in my view.
so i don't agree that either someone who says there is one god is right, or wrong. god is not changed by your perception of him. he is not diminished by the unbelief of the atheist. for the atheist he does not exist, so that is true for him. if a person believes god comes in 10,000 installments, god does not multiply - he remains the same - he is a constant, if you will. to a muslim, the qur'an was revealed by god. this is his truth. he is not right. he is not wrong. it isn't an either/or thing. most of the monotheists are exclusivists - but i see no inherent reason why you have to be, in order to be a monotheist. (i guess it has to do with the revealation aspect of the "Big 3") and in this, my monotheism is different than that of the "Big 3". this may be why it is practically impossible to grasp the seriousness of apostacism in islam - because i don't think it hurts or angers god at all. he remains god.
a person's perception of god is a very intimate thing, even tho he may join with other people that share it - ultimately it is just him and god.
another thing is that to me, the seeming contradictions in various religious are more apparent than they are real - on some level, they are all the same. so it doesn't matter that theologies are different from each other on the surface.
no i would not say that just because there is one god, doesn't mean that we have to look for the most plausible explanation. god doesn't need explanations.
do i think that a true god would not be watching over his creation (not sure what you mean by Supreme Control? my answer is: i don't know. this is what makes an agnostic an agnostic, after all. i do not know why god created us. i think he cares about his creation - but how would i know for sure what god thinks - he's god, after all! and when you get right down to it, he is unknowable and more easily defined by what he isn't than by what he is. i also don't know if he put us here for a purpose.
now, you do know these things, but i do not.
as far as i am concerned, there are many questions that have no knowable answer - and i'm comfortable with that.
no, i don't think logic and reason should be our guiding force in our investigation - this would be true if we were discussing a scientific subject, but god is beyond reason and logic and requires no explanations or investigation.
i am going to have to wrap this up. i doubt that you will understand my thinking because it is so different than yours. but in my view, on the level where it really matters - we are not so different after all.
god, i hope this is coherent - there's a lot going on here and all this thinking is taxing my poor brain! these things are really hard to put in words.
do i know what i'm talking about? of course not, i'm an agnostic, after all!
peace.

 

[scentsofjannah]

no - i simply don't know or understand many things. i can't pretend to know why god does what he does. (or doesn't). this is one of many things i wonder about.

ok let me get this straight..you do believe in God but then you find him to be a bit of a mystery(which is fine since we cant comprehend God or understand how He works)..and you also donot worship Him?