All Trinity discussion goes here!

[جوري]

the speaker is speaking of god as he is in himself. the above would also mean that the muslim deity is not god. he occupies a space (he sits on his throne in heaven), he has eyes, hands, feet etc. and even has a shape according to islam. so if your argument is correct, then the case is closed for islam as well.

do you actually spend a smidgen of time reading any replies afforded you including those scholarly treatise on ahadith you quote without understanding.
I notice that you shied away from answering the questions asked below, after your usual calisthenics with words!

Again, verbiage in abundance doesn't address my queries. It wastes time and web-space!


Not a false premise when it comes to something as important as the clause of ones' salvation. We're not for instance speaking of Islamic finance. It wouldn't matter if you're deeply involved with it or completely ignorant of it. We're speaking of the very thing that should lead you to the eternal house. And again as I have stated prior, should be something that is understood by theologians and laymen alike, paupers and kings and not some occult inference that is apparently understood by a select few!

More nonsensical verbiage (see above paragraph)

What does this mean? You say or he says Jesus is God, it would seem incumbent upon you the claim maker to establish two things
1- the validity of the documents you present, textually, historically, logically, chain of narrations from trustworthy individuals.
and 2- and perhaps the most important of all that these are the very words of God and the very words of God are in a clear fashion prove that he is this middle eastern man named Jesus!

See two previous replies!



See above and quit with all the verbiage, as stated previously drowning people in meaningless logorrhea isn't an excuse nor should be used as a deflection when being at a loss for something meaningful to write!

all the best

 

[Sol Invictus]

do you actually spend a smidgen of time reading any replies afforded you including those scholarly treatise on ahadith you quote without understanding.
I notice that you shied away from answering the questions asked below, after your usual calisthenics with words!

please don't jump to conclusions like this. i am actually about to leave my home so i could not answer your post at the moment. i skipped it only because it's rather easy to reply to naidamar. that said, have you looked at what the church has said on the matter of god as he is in himself and how this squares with the incarnation? can you name and describe for us the fundamental doctrine as it regards the incarnation of christ and his divinity?

once again, i will reply as soon as i come home, like i said, i'm glad to continue this discussion for as long as you're willing so perhaps we should not be so quick to jump to conclusions. this forum does not constitute my whole life.

 

[Sojourn]

OK I will have to agree with you on the definition of God.
That means Jesus is not God, because he was historical figure, and he occupied space, he had body parts, he had shape.


Case closed.

You made an erroneous conclusion.

Consider the following: Man is composed of spirit and flesh. Flesh is material and occupies space, but the Spirit is immaterial, and occupies no space. Does the fact that man has a material body negate that he has an immaterial spirit?

No?

Than neither does the human nature of Christ negate the reality of His Divine nature.

Get it?

Good.


wa salaam,
Sojourn

 

[جوري]

please don't jump to conclusions like this. i am actually about to leave my home so i could not answer your post at the moment. i skipped it only because it's rather easy to reply to naidamar. that said, have you looked at what the church has said on the matter of god as he is in himself and how this squares with the incarnation? can you name and describe for us the fundamental doctrine as it regards the incarnation of christ and his divinity?

I don't accept Jesus' alleged divinity to name you a ''fundamental doctrine as it regards the incarnation of christ and his divinity'' What does this even mean, I honestly worry of your mental status when you write such absurdities. I have posed you two very logical and concise questions and I expect a clear answer to them that doesn't loan itself to some non rational speech. You must realize how monolithic Christianity appears and how divided, given that no Abrahamic religion before or after accepts anthropomorphism, a human god, let alone the very human things that make such a god both ineffectual as a human and as a god!

once again, i will reply as soon as i come home, like i said, i'm glad to continue this discussion for as long as you're willing so perhaps we should not be so quick to jump to conclusions. this forum does not constitute my whole life.

I can only draw conclusions from what you yourself present. I don't know who you are to have any emotional investment!

all the best

 

[جوري]

Than neither does the human nature of Christ negate the reality of His Divine nature. Get it? Good.

By your conclusion we're all gods.. what is the point of adoration of a lesser ineffectual god if we're all even?

 

[Ramadhan]

By your conclusion we're all gods.. what is the point of adoration of a lesser ineffectual god if we're all even?

I was going to write this exact sentence.
You beat me to it.

Truly, those whose heart are sealed are like the blind.

 

[Sojourn]

By your conclusion we're all gods.. what is the point of adoration of a lesser ineffectual god if we're all even?

Just because a spirit is immaterial doesn't mean it's Divine. The soul of man is spirit, and it is CREATED. Our existence depends on God. He created us and upholds us.

 

[Ramadhan]

the speaker is speaking of god as he is in himself. the above would also mean that the muslim deity is not god. he occupies a space (he sits on his throne in heaven), he has eyes, hands, feet etc. and even has a shape according to islam. so if your argument is correct, then the case is closed for islam as well.

Look, I understand the need for christians to keep reinventing sentences and give new interpretations to words, because truly, christianity dogma that God is three but one is not based on the truth and therefore can never be reconciled by any base logic or reason, unless you shut down your logical capacity and reason and only use such convoluted words to describe the concept.

Now, let me remind you again this is what YOU yourself wrote:

God is absolutely simple, this means there are not parts in God. He occupies no space, has no parts, has no shape. Therefore, He can't be Divided into Thirds!

Now, tell me which part of this following sentence is not true:
jesus occupied space, had parts, had shape

Really, the more christians open their mouth trying to describe trinity, the deeper the hole they dig themselves into.

Now, you charged that Allah SWT occupies space. That is a complete lie. From the Qur'an, repeatedly Allah said that He created the heavens (ie. whole universe and everything else we dont know) and is outside the universe (hence outside time and space). Also from the Qur'an : "and there is nothing unto like Him". Your lie is a big fail.

 

[جوري]

Just because a spirit is immaterial doesn't mean it's Divine. The soul of man is spirit, and it is CREATED. Our existence depends on God. He created us and upholds us.

yeah, what granted Jesus' spirit divinity? it seems from your book that he was crucified and died which renders him equal (if not less) to every human being on this planet-- by less of course given his prayer in Gethsemane not to be forsaken.. shouldn't god save himself? What makes a god that can't save himself able to grant 'salvation' to others?

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

Just because a spirit is immaterial doesn't mean it's Divine. The soul of man is spirit, and it is CREATED. Our existence depends on God. He created us and upholds us.

Since you started speaking on the subject of trinity, you keep on contradicting your own statements, and then had to make amendements, which ironically further contradicting your previous statements.

BTW,
please STOP sending me PMs of arabic life application bible. It's as meaningless as whatever one of other hundreds of bible versions you have out there.
why is it that the missionaries and fundies in these forums love sending non-sensical PMs. You can always put them up on this forum for everyone to see your absurdity. sheesshh.


Only when you send me the unadulterated, authentic words of Jesus (as) in his own words and language, then I'll be interested. Otherwise, keep them to yourselves.

 

[Sojourn]

yeah, what granted Jesus' spirit divinity?

Not sure what you mean here. Jesus' spirit was never granted Divinity. God took on human nature, and therefore took on spirit and flesh.

it seems from your book that he was crucified and died which renders him equal (if not less) to every human being on this planet-- by less of course given his prayer in Gethsemane not to be forsaken..

Christ's humanity was like ours in all ways save one: sin. Christ was sinless.

shouldn't god save himself? What makes a god that can't save himself able to grant 'salvation' to others?

Jesus had the power to save Himself, as He revealed to Pilate. He didn't save Himself because His will was to redeem man.


In Christ,
Sojourn

 

[Sojourn]

Now, you charged that Allah SWT occupies space. That is a complete lie. From the Qur'an, repeatedly Allah said that He created the heavens (ie. whole universe and everything else we dont know) and is outside the universe (hence outside time and space). Also from the Qur'an : "and there is nothing unto like Him". Your lie is a big fail.

First of all I dont believe Allah spoke in the Quran.

Now that we got that out of the way...

I didn't charge God occupied space anymore than I charge your spirit occupies space. Since both God and spirit are immaterial, they can't occupy space by definition.

Again...

Since God and spirit are immaterial, they *CANT* occupy space.


I suggest you read my posts at a pace you can understand.

Wa salaam,

Sojourn

 

[جوري]

Not sure what you mean here. Jesus' spirit was never granted Divinity. God took on human nature, and therefore took on spirit and flesh.

and when god was suckling or using the loo or sleeping at night or for that matter when he died who took on the affairs of the vast universe and all that dwells within it?

Christ's humanity was like ours in all ways save one: sin. Christ was sinless.

Yeah? according to Martin Luther's Table talk Jesus had an affair three times:

Christ was an adulterer for the first time with the woman at the well, for it was said, "Nobody knows what he's doing with her". Again, with Magdalene, and still again with the adulterous woman in John 8 <:2-11>, whom he let off so easily. So the good Christ had to become an adulterer before he died. (Luther's Works, American Edition, Volume 54, p 154)
​

Jesus had the power to save Himself, as He revealed to Pilate. He didn't save Himself because His will was to redeem man.

So Jesus couldn't redeem the Jews/sabeans/Mandeans etc. before .. he simply changed his mind and religion?

In Christ,
Sojourn

Good luck with that

all the best

 

[Sojourn]

and when god was suckling or using the loo or sleeping at night or for that matter when he died who took on the affairs of the vast universe and all that dwells within it?

The answer is simple, God.

Do you really think God can't take on human nature if He wanted to? Or that doin so would actually limit him? You underestimate God.

Yeah? according to Martin Luther's Table talk Jesus had an affair three times:

Are Luther's opinions supposed to mean something to me?

Do you suppose Luther was suggesting Christ is an adulterer the way you understand the an adulterer?

So Jesus couldn't redeem the Jews/sabeans/Mandeans etc. before .. he simply changed his mind and religion?

Not sure who the sabeans or mandeans were, but Christ's redemption even touched those in the past.

 

[Ramadhan]

First of all I dont believe Allah spoke in the Quran.

I know that you don't believe that, otherwise you would have been muslim.
Has belief in the trinity really messed up your brain cells that badly?

Since both God and spirit are immaterial, they can't occupy space by definition. Again...
Since God and spirit are immaterial, they *CANT* occupy space.

I am having a ball here.
So by your latest definition, Jesus is not God, because God and spirit cannot occupy space (Jesus was space, right?)

I cant wait for your next line in explaining trinity.

 

[Ramadhan]

Do you really think God can't take on human nature if He wanted to? Or that doin so would actually limit him? You underestimate God.

This latest "statement" from you contradicted your previous "statement":

Since God and spirit are immaterial, they *CANT* occupy space.

;D

 

[جوري]

The answer is simple, God.

Do you really think God can't take on human nature if He wanted to? Or that doin so would actually limit him? You underestimate God.

That is a non answer. A god that dies can hardly save himself isn't going to make the world go round!

Are Luther's opinions supposed to mean something to me?

His opinion is as valid as the mysterious writers of the bible.. anyone can write anything and it is so apparent since you're apt at turning humans into gods!

Do you suppose Luther was suggesting Christ is an adulterer the way you understand the an adulterer?

It is inconsequential to me what Luther thought, anymore than what saul thought anymore than what doubting thomas believed or what john dreamt!

Not sure who the sabeans or mandeans were, but Christ's redemption even touched those in the past.

Of course you don't know who they're.. that is not a surprise, but it isn't the point.. why wasn't god human for the Jews? and why the change of heart about his commandments?

why Jesus and not ganesh, the god in the elephant head? if we're going by non reasoned judgment, their brand of reincarnation doesn't involve botched math!

all the best

 

[Sojourn]

So by your latest definition, Jesus is not God, because God and spirit cannot occupy space (Jesus was space, right?)

I cant wait for your next line in explaining trinity.

Perhaps you haven't realized, but we're not talking about the Trinity anymore. We're talking about the union of Christ's humanity with His Divinity (a separate topic.)

The error you are making is that you are equating humanity with Divinity. We never said Jesus' humanity is his Divinity, such that the created is the uncreated. What we said is that Jesus is a Divine Person with a human nature unified with a Divine nature.

That's why your statemet, "Jesus is not God, because God cannot occupy space" is (another) erroneous conclusion you have drawn.

So lets review...

Jesus is a Divine Person with two distinct natures, one human and the other Divine. The human nature is not the Divine nature, and the Divine nature is not the human nature. Each retains its properties despite being unified by the power of God.

If this is difficulty to believe, consider that such a union exists within yourself!

You are made up of a material flesh and an immaterial spirit. The flesh is not the spirit, and the spirit is not the flesh. Eech retain their properties while being unified by the power of God.

Get it?

Good!

wa salaam!

 

[Sojourn]

This latest "statement" from you contradicted your previous "statement":
;D

It's not a contradiction because we are not saying human nature = divine nature

We are saying Jesus has *both* a human nature, and a divine nature.

Thus both human attributes and Divine attributes can be seen in Christ.


So simple if you only stopped forcing yourself to find problems : )

Wa salaam akhi,
Sojourn

 

[Sojourn]

That is a non answer.

Shrugs...

A god that dies can hardly save himself isn't going to make the world go round!

Three things to mention:

1) Death is not oblivion

2) Jesus conquered death by His resurrection

3) Jesus' human nature did not make Him any less Divine

His opinion is as valid as the mysterious writers of the bible.. anyone can write anything and it is so apparent since you're apt at turning humans into gods!

The writers of the Bible are not mysterious.

Most humans, even in Jesus time, were more skeptical than we think. They believed Him to be God because He bore the attributes of God.

It is inconsequential to me what Luther thought, anymore than what saul thought anymore than what doubting thomas believed or what john dreamt!

Umm... yea... thats why I dont quote Luther to you, but you quoted him to me!

Of course you don't know who they're.. that is not a surprise, but it isn't the point.. why wasn't god human for the Jews? and why the change of heart about his commandments?

Jesus taught that marriage is to be between one man and one woman, and that only death can break the marital bond. Muhammad taught that a man can have four wives, unlimited concubines, and can divorce by simply saying it three times!

Why the change of heart?

why Jesus and not ganesh, the god in the elephant head? if we're going by non reasoned judgment, their brand of reincarnation doesn't involve botched math!

Saying 1 coin has 2 faces is not botched math...

Anymore than saying 1 Divine Nature in 3 Persons...


wa salaam ukhti