All Trinity discussion goes here!

[Sojourn]

The actual problem is whether we have any reason to believe that God Himself could or would exist in such a way. Funny how we never seem get any analogies about that.

The Trinity is a revealed truth of God. Nothing in the created order is like God and therefore no perfect analogy can be given. Something of it can be gained by reason, if we reflect on God's attributes. I.e. God's knowledge of Himself is perfect and therefore it is a perfect Image of Him. That Image is like God in all ways and therefore it is God. That Image, the Divine Logos, is God the Son. Likewise, the Love between God the Son and God the Father is perfect and infinite, such that the Love is the Third Person, the Holy Spirit.

And God knows best.

Wa salam

 

[Ramadhan]

The Trinity is a revealed truth of God.

Can you tell me where in the bible God revealed the trinity?

The rest of your paragraph is empty and just words without logic or scriptural verses to back up.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Can you tell me where in the bible God revealed the trinity?

The rest of your paragraph is empty and just words without logic or scriptural verses to back up.

concerning your last sentence, i would somewhat have to agree in that i do not think that what the poster wrote was actually a logical explanation of the trinity. while it is one way to appreciate it and even describe it, it does have some pitfalls. if the basis for the third person of the trinity is the fact that god loves, then what about the fact that god also possess power and glory etc. would this not necessitate another person for power, for glory and where then would we stop? suddenly we would leave the concept of a trinity entirely and suddenly find ourselves with a quadrinity and upwards to infinity. so once again, while i do agree with your last sentence, i do not agree with the way it was worded.

as it concerns your first sentence, it would seem that you would like some proof of the trinity within the bible:

holy spirit is god: Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God. --- Acts 5:3

christ is god: while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ --- Titus 2:13

and of course we all are in agreement that the father is god so i don't need to bring a quote concerning this. what should in fact be noted is that the bible distinguishes these individuals from each other yet calls them god and gives them the very prerogatives of god. furthermore, it consistently says that there is only one god. hence the trinity. of course you being a muslim don't believe in the trinity and that's perfectly alright but it is rather clear (and rather opposed to the views that some perpetuate, even in this thread, that the bible does not teach the trinity) that the trinity is taught in the bible.

 

[Ramadhan]

so once again, while i do agree with your last sentence, i do not agree with the way it was worded.

I understand that as a christian, you are most concerned with words over substance. That's how you can reconcile 1+1+1 = 3.

s it concerns your first sentence, it would seem that you would like some proof of the trinity within the bible:

That's not what I asked. I asked:

Can you tell me where in the bible God revealed the trinity?

Let me stress again, I don't want indirect references (and especially vague indirect refences that rely on terrible translations) either by apostles or other people, I want to know where in the bible God has revealed trinity.
Where in the bible Jesus said along the line of : "I am God, and so is the father and so is Holy Spirit, so you humans need to worship me, worship the father and worship holy spirit because we are three-in-one God"

As for your two verses, I can easily copy paste here many evidence that two verses are the results of bad translations and interpretations, or rather, intentional misleading translations and interpretations by people who already believe in the deity of jesus.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I understand that as a christian, you are most concerned with words over substance. That's how you can reconcile 1+1+1 = 3.

but... 1+1+1 does equal three. now, if you would like to question my concept of oneness, i talk about it at length in my post and you are certainly welcomed to try to take me to task on it. once again, you know where my posts are which deal with oneness, i await the knowledge which you will impart unto me.

That's not what I asked. I asked:

now that is rather strange, you asked where the trinity is revealed in scripture and the christian claim is that when the evidence in the bible is taken as a whole, the trinity is clearly taught. from my quotes, you can clearly see that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are clearly called god. from even a cursory reading of the bible, it is clearly evident that these are distinguished from one another yet never does the bible speak of three gods but rather only one. how then do you say that this is not the trinity? i believe that your own biases are making you unable to see this or more specifically (since i believe that you to see this) are making you unable to admit this fact.

after having presented this evidence to you, it would seem that you would then argue seeing as there is no explicit or statement to the effect of "i exist as a trinity" by god then the christian understanding is false. this of course presupposes that no knowledge can be gained through implication (the method of deduction be ****ed!) and sadly, i would have to disagree with you once more. in fact, i would call this inconsistent on your part with regards to the other beliefs you hold but let me give you an example. that is, if we are only to believe what a person explicitly says about themselves then why is it that you believe christ to be the messiah, or a word from allah? can you find me the verse where Jesus explicitly says, "oh children of israel, i am the messiah, follow me" or "oh children of israel, i am a word from allah, listen to me"? once more, could you please give me a specific reference from the qur'an where a similar explicit statement comes from the mouth of christ? the fact of the matter is that there are none and as such if what you claim is true then it shouldn't be possible for you to believe either of these. unless of course you truly are an inconsistent individual and while you would use any seemingly probable argument to try and disprove the trinity, you do not take time to critically analyze them to see if islam would not suffer from a similar fate. but, alas, we live and we learn i suppose.

As for your two verses, I can easily copy paste here many evidence that two verses are the results of bad translations and interpretations, or rather, intentional misleading translations and interpretations by people who already believe in the deity of jesus.

the fact that you could copy and paste things of this sort is wonderful and good, yet this does not somehow prove your argument. in theory i could copy and past a whole slew of things: that islam promotes terrorism, that as ahmadis believe, mohammad wasn't the last prophet (not that i necessarily believe either of these), but you wouldn't think these to be true, right?

anyway, i await your response.

 

[Ramadhan]

but... 1+1+1 does equal three.

I was going to write 1 + 1 + 1 =1, but it turned out that even subconsciously my brain wouldn't allow it. And believing it would mean I would have to shut down my brain.

now that is rather strange, you asked where the trinity is revealed in scripture and the christian claim is that when the evidence in the bible is taken as a whole, the trinity is clearly taught

You claimed jesus is God right?
Did he even say in the bible " "I am God, and so is the father and so is Holy Spirit, so you humans need to worship me, worship the father and worship holy spirit because we are three-in-one God"?

a yes or no answer would be sufficient thanks. and if yes, please show me where.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I was going to write 1 + 1 + 1 =1, but it turned out that even subconsciously my brain wouldn't allow it.

it's wonderful that you are so adept at mathematics. similarly, i knowingly would never write the same.

You claimed jesus is God right?
Did he even say in the bible " "I am God, and so is the father and so is Holy Spirit, so you humans need to worship me, worship the father and worship holy spirit because we are three-in-one God"?

a yes or no answer would be sufficient thanks.

now naidamar, this has nothing to do with a yes or no question. i argued that your very argument was incorrect and as such you must first establish the correctness of your argument before we can see whether or not it is fit for me to answer it (though in fact i have answered the argument by showing it to be false). once again, your claim relies on a hidden premise that you have yet to substantiate within your post or even through your own beliefs. we can move no further until you provide some basis for this. now it might seem that i relish the fact that your argument is incorrect but actually, i don't gain anything from this and i would ask that you forgive me if this seems to be the case in your eyes. all we're doing is simply talking and seeking to better understand our respective positions.

 

[Ramadhan]

now naidamar, this has nothing to do with a yes or no question.

On question as extremely important and absolute fundamental as the identity of God, it has everything to do with a yes or no. the answer of that question fundamentally determines our eternal fate, so why so vague?

I'll take your evasiveness as a no.

Thanks for answering anyway.

 

[Sol Invictus]

On question as extremely important and absolute fundamental as the identity of God, it has everything to do with a yes or no. the answer of that question fundamentally determines our eternal fate, so why so vague?

I'll take your evasiveness as a no.

Thanks for answering anyway.

the question has no relevance on the manner of your argument. i did not evade the question, rather i called your entire argument incorrect and proved this through simple reason and even through your very own beliefs. you however, did nothing to defend your argument and instead tried to assert it without giving a basis to do so. it would seem that you tire of our discussion and that's perfectly alright, the fact that i have indeed replied to it and shown it to be false is perfectly evident but i suppose that at this point, we should cease bringing up the past, right?

thank you for the discussion, it was wonderful.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I understand that as a christian, you are most concerned with words over substance. That's how you can reconcile 1+1+1 = 3.

</p>
This is a nonsense statement [recognizing, as you later state, that you meant to write 1+1+1=1] as it puts words (or in this case symbols) in the mouths of people who are not in fact uttering them.

 

[Grace Seeker]

You claimed jesus is God right?
Did he even say in the bible " "I am God, and so is the father and so is Holy Spirit, so you humans need to worship me, worship the father and worship holy spirit because we are three-in-one God"?

a yes or no answer would be sufficient thanks. and if yes, please show me where.

You claim that Jesus is NOT God, correct? Does Muhammad every say in the Qur'an or the Hadith, "Jesus is not God."? A yes or no answer would be sufficient. If if yes, please show me where.Again, like you, we want quotes, not interpretation, but an actual quote in those exact words.

 

[Sol Invictus]

</p>
This is a nonsense statement [recognizing, as you later state, that you meant to write 1+1+1=1] as it puts words (or in this case symbols) in the mouths of people who are not in fact uttering them.

you bring up a good point, gene, in that there seems to be a disturbing propensity for individuals in this thread to argue against things that a person (in this case, myself) has not actually said. that is a strawman and if this discussion is to be at all conducive in the hope of forging a better understanding between christians and muslims on this board then we must take care to only argue against what people have actually said.

 

[Ramadhan]

This is a nonsense statement [recognizing, as you later state, that you meant to write 1+1+1=1] as it puts words (or in this case symbols) in the mouths of people who are not in fact uttering them.

Ah.. I thought you were ignoring me, GS. Glad thats not the case.
ok so how do you want your trinity formula, GS:
1/2 (father) + 3/8 (son) + 1/8 (spirit) = 1 God

Is that better?. it makes more sense mathematically and logically right. Mind you, I give holy spirit only 1/8 because he doesn't seem to have much say in the triune (he sounds like a mute god).

I am glad that more and more christians saw the light of at the end of this mathematical wonder and decided to skip trinity and embrace the monotheism of Islam.
;D

You claim that Jesus is NOT God, correct? Does Muhammad every say in the Qur'an or the Hadith, "Jesus is not God."? A yes or no answer would be sufficient. If if yes, please show me where.Again, like you, we want quotes, not interpretation, but an actual quote in those exact words.

Now now, GS.
You are a pastor and you have been here since November 2006, and you wrote that Muhammad (SAW) say in the Qur'an?
I believe you know better than that and you know that we muslims believe that the Qur'an is direct words of Allah SWT, but let's leave aside the speculation of your motive. I'd be disappointed if it is less an honest mistake, befitting the profile of fundamentalist/missionaries who are quick to resort to lies to deceive people.
Now, ignoring your venom, here's the answer to your question: Yes, and here's the Qur'an verses shows in clear unambiguouos ways and repeated that Jesus is not God (you want unadulterated quotes right):

(QS. an Nisa: 171)

(QS. As-Saf:6)

(QS. Al Maaidah:72)

(QS. At Tawbah: 30)

(QS. Maryam: 30)

(QS. al Maa'idah: 116-117)


Now, can you do the same for me, and please give me quotes of Jesus that says "I am God, Worship me" and "Holy spirit is God, Worship him", preferably in the original language in which Jesus spoke, and no translation please.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Now, can you do the same for me, and please give me quotes of Jesus that says "I am God, Worship me" and "Holy spirit is God, Worship him", preferably in the original language in which Jesus spoke, and no translation please.

can you please substantiate your argument? no sense adhering to a question that is in itself incorrect and assumes that God cannot use induction to teach a matter. so therefore, please show me how in fact your argument is even logically sound? it's wonderful that you are so adept at dealing insults but please let us focus our efforts a bit more on logical arguments. you have consistently claimed that we christians do not rely on logic to make our points so please, let me partake of this fountain of islamic logic which leads you to make the claim that because there is no such explicit statement within the bible, it therefore does not teach the trinity. once more your argument is faulty and you yourself are inconsistent when it comes to your own beliefs. anyway, i'll await the post in which you logically pick apart my argument (oh and please, do pick apart my concept of oneness as well. you would do me a great service in proving me wrong).

i'll be waiting.

 

[Ramadhan]

can you please substantiate your argument? no sense adhering to a question that is in itself incorrect and assumes that God cannot use induction to teach a matter. so therefore, please show me how in fact your argument is even logically sound? it's wonderful that you are so adept at dealing insults but please let us focus our efforts a bit more on logical arguments. you have consistently claimed that we christians do not rely on logic to make our points so please, let me partake of this fountain of islamic logic which leads you to make the claim that because there is no such explicit statement within the bible, it therefore does not teach the trinity. once more your argument is faulty and you yourself are inconsistent when it comes to your own beliefs. anyway, i'll await the post in which you logically pick apart my argument (oh and please, do pick apart my concept of oneness as well. you would do me a great service in proving me wrong). i'll be waiting.

Let me ask you again, is there a verse in the bible where either the father, or jesus or holy spirit say that all three of them god?
I am making my question more simple each time.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Let me ask you again, is there a verse in the bible where either the father, or jesus or holy spirit say that all three of them god?
I am making my question more simple each time.

i'll try once again seeing as there seems to be a problem in communication: do you believe that you have made a point? and if so, what is it? if you truly have an argument explain it for us. the fact is that you have none and that you have recurringly refused to give any logical basis for your argument. i've already shown your position to be illogical and inconsistent, so please, demonstrate that you actually have a viable argument. as is, your question is senseless because it is not able to provide any justification for your argument and so i simply ask you to provide a logical foundation for your argument. is that really so hard?

 

[M.I.A.]

0 + 0 + 0 = 0

what is the nature of 0?

well something is either on or off.

0 is the off state.

hope that helps.

so the oneness of god again?

well you could think that some people are constantly off, some come on occasionally and very very very etc etc few.. remain on.
who switches them on?

mods, no deleting posts today please...

freedom of choice joke

 

[Ramadhan]

i'll try once again seeing as there seems to be a problem in communication: do you believe that you have made a point? and if so, what is it? if you truly have an argument explain it for us. the fact is that you have none and that you have recurringly refused to give any logical basis for your argument. i've already shown your position to be illogical and inconsistent, so please, demonstrate that you actually have a viable argument. as is, your question is senseless because it is not able to provide any justification for your argument and so i simply ask you to provide a logical foundation for your argument. is that really so hard?

Let me summarise trinity in a clear passage for you:

in the OT, God was one. Every single prophet from Adam (as) down to Jesus (as) proclaimed that God is one so worship the one true God.
Then after Jesus (as) departed, suddenly God in the OT changed his mind and suffered identity crisis, became vague, and decided to split Himself into 3 (hence a multiple personality god): Himself, the son, and the wandering spirit. Suddenly the constant message from the One true god changed dramatically, it is now: God is three in one, and God did actually split himself and and came down to earth to be born of a virgin woman in the middle east, cried, pooped, worship himself, cried to himself and one day he committed suicide himself (because logically he should have known he was going to be killed).
And then suddenly another theme of "original sin" and "inherited sin" was created, god actually killed himself so he could exchange the sin that he himself created.

The first part of this story is consistent, but the latter part sounds like a greek drama.
;D

 

[Sol Invictus]

well i had assumed that you knew little of the old testament, but i certainly didn't think that your understanding would be so bad. in your above post you claim that the old testament does not show the one god of israel to be xistent as more than one person and that is patently false:

Zech. 2:10-11 — “Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD. 11“Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.

notice what is said in the above, the god of israel says that he will live among the jews (zion is another name for jerusalem which can signify israel in general) and in fact many other nations will be joined with him and will become his people. yet surprisingly, we will know that the god of israel has sent him to us. the speaker in the above is th god of israel and he says that he will be sent by the god of israel. at the very least two different individuals are spoken of here who both are the one LORD (when you see 'lord' in capitals it in fact stands for the ineffinable name of god) yet the god of israel will be sent to dwell with men by the god of israel. this is actually a prophecy of christ who is himself the god of israel and is sent to dwell with men by the god of israel.

Genesis 19:24 — Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

i encourage you to go back and read the relative context of what i have cited and will cite so that for one thing, you will see that i'm not taking these verses out of context, and furthermore, that you yourself can find out about the context. anyway, in the above, after meeting and speaking to abraham face to face, god goes down to sodom and gomorrah in order to destroy it but look at what the text says. the LORD at sodom and gomorrah causes fire to rain down from the LORD in heaven. notice once again that the one LORD, the one god of israel who throughout the entire bible says to be only one is existent as more than one person in his being.

Genesis 1:1-2 — In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

1 Kings 18:12 — I don’t know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn’t find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth.

notice how the spirit of god is distinguished from god himself and yet still the old testament is firm in that the god of israel is only one.

Proverbs 30:4 — Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know!

i could keep going but let's stop here. the fact of the matter is that each person of the trinity is found extensively within the old testament and you merely displayed your ignorance of scripture by implying that this had changed with the advent of the new testament.

that said, you still have not provided us with a logical basis for your questions. it does not seem as if you understand the rules of logic and argument and since i can't assume that you have even taken an introductory logic class, i will have to try to explain things to you. when you make an argument (as you did on the matter of explicit statements for the trinity) and an individual attacks the premises of your argument (as i have done by showing your argument to be illogical, inconsistent and false) then you must first prove the truth of your argument before we can at all move on seeing as whether i answer it or not would still not change the fact that your argument would still be considered wrong and you would have no point either way. hence, please defend your argument and show to us all how yours is in fact logical and consistent to your islamic beliefs. on that note, given that you call the christian concept of oneness illogical please also take me to task on my concept of oneness. you know where i speak of oneness, so please start quoting these posts and show us how i am incorrect in my understanding. since we're at it, i would very much also like a defense of the recurring misformulations of the trinity within the qur'an. nevermind whether the trinity is true or not, it doesn't change the fact that allah would surely know what the trinity is and as such i would indeed enjoy an explanation for why the very text which muslims use to condemn the christian trinity actually condemn everything but the trinity.

i'll be waiting.

 

[Grace Seeker]

here's the Qur'an verses shows in clear unambiguouos ways and repeated that Jesus is not God (you want unadulterated quotes right):

I looked them up. A little bit of work for me to translate them out of the Arabic, but that's OK, I suppose it's good practice. Still, not a single one of them actually said, "Jesus is not God." It may be that one can deduce the idea from them, but they don't actually say it. You're asking for specific quotes worded in a specific manner from the Bible and you have excluded any use of deductive reasoning. Hence, until I see the Qur'an actually say that "Jesus is not God" in those exact words, I'm forced to conclude that it is not specifically excluded from Islamic belief, because the Qur'an doesn't actually say it is in so many words.

Now, if you object to my form of argument, fine. I object to the form in which you have made your argument that unless there is a quote in the Bible with Jesus saying "I am God" in those exact words that he has excluded such belief, especially when such a teaching not only can be inferred from the biblical record of what Jesus said and did, but for those with eyes to see and ears to hear IMO actually must be.