Allah and Camouflage...(Atheists!!,Agnostics!! and seculars!!)

[Nerd]

Note well, that this insect didn't do this mutation within a few years. It took him millions of years to mutate to what it is today.

would you you be kind enough to give the evolutionary steps through which this creature came to being?

 

[ranma1/2]

People accept evolution without solid evidence. "Millions of years" of evidence which should have cumulated is simply not there... Well if scientist can rest in peace after merely speculating that all species evolved from a single cell and stating its impossible to show each step through which they passed through cause its happened over millions of years... Why is it so hard of us to believe that a God created them?

well than again some people would be happier saying the chair they are sitting on did indeed came to being without a creator (carpenter)

People accept evolution because there is a ton of evidence. Fossils and dna being the primary ones. Please read about evolution. I have recommended this site many a time so please go to berkley and read about evolution.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

and a more direct one of evidence.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46

 

[guyabano]

Why is it so hard of us to believe that a God created them?

This question is easy to answer: Because it was not 'God' ! It was Nature !!

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

This question is easy to answer: Because it was not 'God' ! It was Nature !!

nature cant function without a controller...

 

[guyabano]

would you you be kind enough to give the evolutionary steps through which this creature came to being?

You ask me this question knowing well, I cannot answer it to you. I'm not an expert in this domain. Anyway, whatever I will show you up, you would not believe it and dig deeper and deeper till I would give up.

I guess it is so hard to proove you the geneologicial tree from this insect as much as you will be able to proove me the existance of God, because both of us have already made up our minds. Isn't it?

 

[guyabano]

nature cant function without a controller...

errmmm, Nature can exist without humans, but humans cannot exist without Nature, so all in all, a God is also not needed. Nature can still exist, same as the rest of the universe

 

[ranma1/2]

nature cant function without a controller...

evidence? and what do you mean by function and controller?
Last i checked nature works quite nicely without any guide. Or did you mean the IPU? well we all know IPU is actually behind the lines controlling everything.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

why do people rely so much on the tangible..


do you not realise that when killing an innocent human being a deep feeling strikes the heart,

do you not realise that when stealing/fornicating etc for the first time causes such huge displeasure to the heart.


the one who controls these feelings controls nature...


whats IPU :?

 

[guyabano]

whats IPU :?

Sorry, mistype IMO

(I really missed to hit the right keys)

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Sorry, mistype IMO

(I really missed to hit the right keys)

lol no look at ranma's post, he mentioned IPU...

 

[guyabano]

lol no look at ranma's post, he mentioned IPU...

ok, I shut ok. It's my fault, one eye on my work (I'm in office) and one eye on the forum

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

ok, I shut ok. It's my fault, one eye on my work (I'm in office) and one eye on the forum

lolll yeah thats how i am aswell

 

[Nerd]

You ask me this question knowing well, I cannot answer it to you. I'm not an expert in this domain. Anyway, whatever I will show you up, you would not believe it and dig deeper and deeper till I would give up.

I am only seeking Solid evidence for your claim that the creature we are discussing did in fact evolve

Because its really hard for Atheists, Muslims and let's say Human beings to accept things without EMPIRICAL PROOF, especially in this age and time of Science

 

[Trumble]

I think we have all side-tracked from the topic, let me restate the questions..

1- Did this insect look at the mirror when it was born?

2-Does it know what the word camouflage means?

3-Even if it knows, could it draw a shape of leaf on its back a full detailed leaf even with ribs and dry spots?

I think the questions quoted above have been ignored as they are irrelevant to the issue Makky raised before presenting them, but the answers are, of course, 'no', 'no' and 'no'. But neither evolution or creationism, or anything in between, requires them to be 'yes'.

Its either God or Nature which made this fantastic creature... if it is indeed evolution: would someone care to give exact details as from which insect this creature evolved from? even better if someone would be kind enough to trail it back to the first insect or cell from which it evolved and give a detailed description of the steps involved

Nobody knows the 'exact details', as every evolutionary scientist will happily admit. Unfortunately fossil evidence, by its very nature, is not available regarding every one of millions of species that evolved into millions of other species, and even if it was it would take centuries of time and effort to piece it all together. The thing is, though, that doesn't weaken the case for evolution in the slightest. The basic mechanism is understood (or at least we have a strong theory that fits the vast amount of evidence that is available, with no plausible scientific alternatives at present) and filling in the gaps (especially with God - which is what ID does) is not required.

You say that "its either God or Nature which made this fantastic creature". Why are you so quick to assume them to be mutually exclusive.. if there is a God surely He would be responsible for 'nature'? What would you consider wrong with this argument, for example:

(assumed for sake of argument); God created the universe.

(ditto); God was responsible for the first spark of life.

God designed the mechanism of evolution. Being omniscient and omnipotent he designed that mechanism to produce exactly what he wanted produced when he wanted it. From that first microbobe, evolution, designed by God, has been happily chuntering along with God (obviously) knowing the results.. including the creation of man, from the word go.

Why is that somehow less acceptable than the idea either that evolution doesn't exist (creationism) or that it does, but God - presumably not having managed to get it right in the first place - has to tinker with it from time to time (intelligent design)? It seems to come down to no more than some 19th century revulsion at the idea our ancestors may have been monkeys! Evolution/natural selection and theism are NOT incompatible, but it seems to me the false assumption that they are is why we see the persistent refusal by some to reject the vast balance of scientific evidence for the former in favour of the latter which is supported by no scientific evidence at all. "Irreducable complexity" has been pretty much shot-down completely, but creationist websites won't tell you that. 'God of the gaps' is feeble, both as philosophy and as science.

 

[Nerd]

You say that "its either God or Nature which made this fantastic creature". Why are you so quick to assume them to be mutually exclusive..

Good point Trumble... I guess I was in a haste to jump to that conclusion... evolution can very well be a mechanism that God placed.

 

[ranma1/2]

why do people rely so much on the tangible..


do you not realise that when killing an innocent human being a deep feeling strikes the heart,

do you not realise that when stealing/fornicating etc for the first time causes such huge displeasure to the heart.


the one who controls these feelings controls nature...


whats IPU :?

1. what do you mean?
2. not everyone. but in general i would say that "feeling" deals with empathy.
3. not everyone. once again empathy for the stealing. and i never had any displeasure of the heart when i had sex for the first time.
4. IPU=Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ Ranma, your telling me you felt no stinging in the heart whatso ever?

tell me how was your lifestyle before you did it the first time ?

was it full of sin?

perhaps your heart was already stone... to feel such things..

 

[ranma1/2]

^ Ranma, your telling me you felt no stinging in the heart whatso ever?

tell me how was your lifestyle before you did it the first time ?

was it full of sin?

perhaps your heart was already stone... to feel such things..

Why should i have a "stinging in my heart" from having sex?
I felt something but it wasnt a stinging.

I myself have led a very "good" life. As for sin, i dont believe in it and it is in general a very vauge concept. For clarity on my part. I in general describe good actions as being selfless and bad as being selfish. Typical mono theists gods seem to be very selfish beings.
Good fosters thinking and understanding, bad doesnt.

 

[Makky]

Brothers and sisters! we need to pause secondary arguments ​

Jazakum Allahu khairan and thanks in advance for your help in organizing this thread.

I'm just reminding you with the origional post and questions :

Questions
1- Did this insect look at the mirror when it was born?
2-Does it know what the word camouflage means?
3-Even if it knows, could it draw a shap of leaf on its back a full detailed leaf even with ribs and dry spots?

ranma1/2 ,Trumble ,Dave2 and guyabano and any other Atheists are welcome to answer,comment and ask


...

 

[ranma1/2]

Brothers and sisters! we need to pause secondary arguments ​

Jazakum Allahu khairan and thanks in advance for your help in organizing this thread.

I'm just reminding you with the origional post and questions :

ranma1/2 ,Trumble ,Dave2 and guyabano and any other Atheists are welcome to answer,comment and ask
...

these questions have been answered.

1- Did this insect look at the mirror when it was born?
no
2-Does it know what the word camouflage means?
no
3-Even if it knows, could it draw a shap of leaf on its back a full detailed leaf even with ribs and dry spots?
no.

These questions have nothing to do with evolution.
Evolution does not have a goal. these creatures were evolved over time and i answered you question in my initial posts i believe. Could you please reply to our posts?