Allah

[ranma1/2]

Hi,

After reading your interesting questions on my mind came a proverb that "atheist wishes they are wrong after they die".. I wonder what agnostic will feel..

nah, atheists are unlucky in that we cant say we told you so when you die.
he he he..

Of course lets say there is a god.
I personally believe that if their is a god and it is a good selfless being , it will respect someone more for not believing in him and leading a good life rather than someone that does a leads a good life so they arent punished.

Of course in the end all muslims wished they believed in zeus when they die.

 

[Makky]

nah, atheists are unlucky in that we cant say we told you so when you die.
he he he..

Of course lets say there is a god.
I personally believe that if their is a god and it is a good selfless being , it will respect someone more for not believing in him and leading a good life rather than someone that does a leads a good life so they arent punished.
Of course in the end all muslims wished they believed in zeus when they die.

You ran away from the camouflage thread to play here ? huh?

We are not created to avoid punishment.. but to worship Allah to love him and this is the Salvation from any punishment.

Poor ranma1/2..when you die?! you will seeeee!! imagine it?!! assume it?! ask yourself! what if? what will happen?!

see you there

 

[ranma1/2]

You ran away from the camouflage thread to play here ? huh?

We are not created to avoid punishment.. but to worship Allah to love him and this is the Salvation from any punishment.

Poor ranma1/2..when you die?! you will seeeee!! imagine it?!! assume it?! ask yourself! what if? what will happen?!

see you there

nope, im ignoring your worthless thread and thats all ill say about it here.

We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
OH no more threats. Well dont worry I know that you know deep in your heart that you will see Zeus when you die. Dont worry you will be treated as you deserve.
Now ask yourself, what is your wrong, What if mohammad was actually given visions by Satan and the christian god is the real one. Looks like hellfire for you. Tobad.

 

[Trumble]

And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.

I totally agree, and have yet to see any plausible explanation for why such a perfect being would display such an imperfect trait. Except the obvious one, of course, that it is a human trait not a divine one. Man created God, not the other way around.

 

[Pynthanomai]

[...]
We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
[...]

Another understanding of why a deity requires worship arises from the consideration of the nature of a deity. If, for the sake of argument, we have assumed the existence of a deity, we contradict ourselves if we propose that such an entity is "selfish" to require worship - because it is the nature of a deity, viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings, to be the object of worship. To assume otherwise is to speak of something other than a deity or god.

 

[Trumble]

"we contradict ourselves if we propose that such an entity is "selfish" to require worship"

Only if you accept your huge assumption that a deity or god must be the object of worship viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings and I can see no reason whatsoever to do so. You could define the words in those terms, but such can only be a purely human construction anyway.. you don't determine the properties of God by how you define Him - unless, of course, that deity or god was a human creation.

 

[Pynthanomai]

Only if you accept your huge assumption that a deity or god must be the object of worship viz-a-viz its relationship with human beings and I can see no reason whatsoever to do so. You could define the words in those terms, but such can only be a purely human construction anyway.. you don't determine the properties of God by how you define Him - unless, of course, that deity or god was a human creation.

What I referred to was the definition by which a deity or god is understood per se. The definition of a deity is a being or entity who or which (among other things) is due worship in some form or way from human beings. To define it otherwise is to define something else entirely. It would be like referring to water and claiming that it was dry. It may be possible, and in a hypothetical situation we might, for the sake of argument, take it as true and valid; but the word "water" does not refer to an object that has the property of dryness.

 

[Trumble]

What I referred to was the definition by which a deity or god is understood per se. The definition of a deity is a being or entity who or which (among other things) is due worship in some form or way from human beings. To define it otherwise is to define something else entirely. It would be like referring to water and claiming that it was dry. It may be possible, and in a hypothetical situation we might, for the sake of argument, take it as true and valid; but the word "water" does not refer to an object that has the property of dryness.

I see nothing in any definition I could drag up as "due worship", only that they are (usually) worshipped, which is a simple statement of fact.

I still see absolutely no reason why that particular property should be assigned to God except by those who already believe worship is required by God. The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition. Is simple to postulate a God that has no requirement to be worshipped (whether people actually do or not); indeed the whole thrust of the argument you are contesting is that given the other properties attributed to God (benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) the idea of a God that requires worship - let alone that creates something just to do it - is nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms.

 

[- Qatada -]

I think we've clarified in previous discussions that worship consists of anything which is loved by Allaah.


We as Muslims believe that this life is temporary, we are created by Allaah, and yes - we are created to worship Him. But wait, worship doesn't just mean to continuously pray, fast, etc. Worship in the Islamic context is anything which is loved by Allaah. So for example, if a guy gives food to his wife, he is fulfilling a duty which is loved by Allaah. Since you intended to draw closer to Allaah by feeding your wife, then that is an act of worship in of itself. Therefore, you would gain Allaah's pleasure, therefore be rewarded by Him inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

Similarly, all aspects of our life can be a means of drawing closer to our Creator, and Sustainer.


Along with these acts of worship, we are also obligated to thank Allaah for the good which He has bestowed upon us. We are obligated to worship Allaah (which includes the 5 daily prayers) - so that we remain firm upon the correct path. During each prayer, we recite to Allaah - "Guide us to the Straight Path.." - if one stops praying to Allaah, they usually break their contact with Him due to the excessive distractions of this life. Therefore an obligation makes the believer firm upon keeping their duty to Allaah so they remain upon the correct straight path which leads to Him (The Siraat Al Mustaqeem.)

Therefore, if one asks why Allaah asks us to worship Him - the answer is so we remain aware of God, so we continue doing good to please Him and earn His pleasure, so we abstain from the evil which He has forbidden us from - which is harm in of itself, and that is why it is forbidden. Those who believe in Allaah, His promise, and His reward - then they will be rewarded for their good.



Therefore the above clarifies that Allaah is not in need of our worship, rather we are in need of worshipping Allaah to be good people and at ease in this life and the life to come.



And Allaah knows best.





Regards.

 

[Pynthanomai]

I see nothing in any definition I could drag up as "due worship", only that they are (usually) worshipped, which is a simple statement of fact.

I still see absolutely no reason why that particular property should be assigned to God except by those who already believe worship is required by God. The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition. Is simple to postulate a God that has no requirement to be worshipped (whether people actually do or not); indeed the whole thrust of the argument you are contesting is that given the other properties attributed to God (benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc) the idea of a God that requires worship - let alone that creates something just to do it - is nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about the definition of a deity or god, and how worship is related to it. I'm afraid I don't follow your sentence, "The 'nature' of something that (if it exists) must in many ways be beyond human conception cannot not equate to its 'definition' unless, as I said, that nature is somehow determined by that definition." I also think we're on different wavelengths when it comes to the concept of God, as you've defined it: "benevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc": all these, so far from making it "nonsensical except in purely anthropomorphic terms" plainly render it (sc. worship due to God) as the only logical and necessary outcome, once the nature of those attributes (which you've assigned to God) are understood. Specifically, to assign such traits to a being or entity and assume that that being may thenceforth have no need to relate to human beings on a level other than that of a god to its worshippers is indeed to posit an entirely new conception of "God". You are welcome to do so, of course; but what you say is not implicit in the normal, everyday use of the word "God".

 

[boriqee]

Hello all,I am Amir this is my first post on these forums and I would like to know...What makes allah so good....Because I am a former musiilim and I never thought allah was very nice......So i have come to the conclusion that even IF he was existant I would reject him and utter the greatest of disrepects from my lips.....So please tell me....what makes him so good? (No i am not trying to start a debate...this is a real question)

the question would really be what information have you received that allowed you to make that conclusion about your maker

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

nope, im ignoring your worthless thread and thats all ill say about it here.

We are not created period. And if we were created to worship something all that shows in that being is a very petty selfish creature. And I see such a being as unworthy of worship. Any being that demands worship is unworthy of it.
OH no more threats. Well dont worry I know that you know deep in your heart that you will see Zeus when you die. Dont worry you will be treated as you deserve.
Now ask yourself, what is your wrong, What if mohammad was actually given visions by Satan and the christian god is the real one. Looks like hellfire for you. Tobad.

how is that selfish?? if someone were to do you a favor, its only natural to return it.

 

[ranma1/2]

how is that selfish?? if someone were to do you a favor, its only natural to return it.

favor?

if someone holds a gun to my head and demands i give them my money or they will shoot me. Are they doing me a favor by not shooting me?
Not to mention this person doesnt even have the decency to actually show up.
Perhaps you have heard of frank?

He will give you a million dollars. Just follow his rules.

 

[Muezzin]

favor?

if someone holds a gun to my head and demands i give them my money or they will shoot me. Are they doing me a favor by not shooting me?
Not to mention this person doesnt even have the decency to actually show up.
Perhaps you have heard of frank?

He will give you a million dollars. Just follow his rules.

In that case, don't follow the law of the land. You really want to kill that guy's dog for biting your backside, but the law of the land states if you do you will be executed?

Obviously, according to that logic, the law of the land must be oppressive. laying:

How about just living with the consequences of your actions? Common sense and everything? I swear, the way some people tell it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that religion blinds people from their own common sense. A lot of the punishments in religion relate to being a butthead to your fellow men. A lot of the rewards relate to being nice to your fellow men. It's two sides of a scale, and nothing more.

 

[ranma1/2]

In that case, don't follow the law of the land. You really want to kill that guy's dog for biting your backside, but the law of the land states if you do you will be executed?

Obviously, according to that logic, the law of the land must be oppressive. laying:

How about just living with the consequences of your actions? Common sense and everything? I swear, the way some people tell it, you'd be forgiven for thinking that religion blinds people from their own common sense. A lot of the punishments in religion relate to being a butthead to your fellow men. A lot of the rewards relate to being nice to your fellow men. It's two sides of a scale, and nothing more.

What does that have to do with god?
And what law says i will be executed for killing a dog that attacks me? "self protection right?"
For the most part i do good not because of the laws of the land but due to empathy and the golden rule. I do not have an inherent desire to kill or steal.
If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."

 

[Muezzin]

What does that have to do with god?
And what law says i will be executed for killing a dog that attacks me? "self protection right?"

It was just an example (and a pretty bad one at that). What I was trying to say is the mere fact that a system of law, religion or any other artificial system governing human behaviour prohibits something is not enough to make the prohibition oppressive.

For the most part i do good not because of the laws of the land but due to empathy and the golden rule. I do not have an inherent desire to kill or steal.

And for the most part, religious people do good not to avoid sinning or punishment, but simply to do good, without putting too much thought into what they have to gain. I think everyone acts like this, religious or non-religious. Religion is another system enforcing certain moral codes.

If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."

Now I see where you're coming from.

 

[- Qatada -]

If the laws of the land said worship the president or go to jail then the law is unjust. "specially if you have never seen this president and are unsure of its existence."

This is the problem, you worship the president by obeying his orders - even if you don't agree with them. If your president says to you that you have to pay a certain amount in tax, and you don't want to - you have to. Otherwise, you're going to jail. There are much more examples which i can give, but that's sufficient to make my point.



So you see, even if you reject the concept of hellfire or paradise, you still believe in the concept of being locked up, and being 'free' in this life. Even if you don't count the votes, you know that you have to agree with the laws. These laws are controlled by the people higher in the social hierarchy. You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.





Regards.

 

[ranma1/2]

This is the problem, you worship the president by obeying his orders - even if you don't agree with them. If your president says to you that you have to pay a certain amount in tax, and you don't want to - you have to. Otherwise, you're going to jail. There are much more examples which i can give, but that's sufficient to make my point.

You need to understand what worship means. No sane person i know worships the president. Also i dont obey any of his orders since he does not order me. He doesnt even make the laws for the most part. Also if he were to make laaws that i find unjust or wrong we can get rid of them. In general you are looking at the people creating the laws not one person such as the president. Not to mention the president is not considered to be a god who is supposedly perfect...

So you see, even if you reject the concept of hellfire or paradise, you still believe in the concept of being locked up, and being 'free' in this life.

I do reject those ideas. And I believe in fair and just laws and the right to rebel against unjust laws and goverment.

Even if you don't count the votes, you know that you have to agree with the laws.

No we dont and we can go against those laws any many ways. We can get them changed legaly or protests peacefully "or non peacefully" as the case may be. Its also important to note that we actually have physical goverment representative that we can actually interact with.

These laws are controlled by the people higher in the social hierarchy. You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.

Slaves? Trying to be immotional arent you? As stated before we can be that heirachy. We can fire that heirachy. Heck we can even kill that heirarchy.
"Unfortunatly many are uncaring about reality and just go with the flow."

 

[Trumble]

You're just a slave to them, yet you don't see them - you only see their signs, i.e. what they portray on the media etc. What is 'kool' on the media, you follow it, or atleast society does. They too are slaves of it. So if you're not slaves to God, you still are slaves to the higher social hierarchy, and you are slaves to those who follow it's ways.

Hehe.. I'm tempted to say "until the inevitable revolution of the proletariat"; that's pure Marx!

His interpretation is different only that to him both God and 'society' in the form of the state are created by human actions. Part of ourselves gets seperated and vested in our own external constructions, which in turn come to both oppress us and alienate us from our true selves and human potential.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

From the theistic paradigm, even disbelievers of Allah subhana wa ta'ala are slaves of him, they are just rebellious slaves. Here it is in terms of ownerships, Allah subhana wa ta'ala created us, and to him will we return no matter what we do. There is no escaping it.

As for being slaves of all other things in this world, that is not absolute slavery. Because we are only slave to anything else as far as we allow it to control our life. That is why that if you submit to Allah subhana wa ta'ala (the inescapable slavery) you have the highest degree of freedom, because you escape all other forms of escapable slaveries. If Allah wills it, we even break free of the slavery of our desires and urges (which I think is one of the goals in Buddhism to, right?).