American School System: Falling alongside economy?

[sister herb]

Just stop they useless fighting there!

:statisfie

Have been funny to read it.

 

[CosmicPathos]

You are the company you keep and I certainly prefer to stay away from riffraff.. as for who I deal with, surely in my practice I have seen the scum of the earth, but I am better prepared in dealing with them above weapons and four letter words!

I'd like to see some realistic statics head to head of where kids who attend public school vs. private school end up after receiving their high school diploma if they should reach that level at all in a public school.

It isn't as assumption, it is a fact!
When I see a school with 90% of its girls heading off to ivy leagues compared to 4 out of ten drop outs, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something is amiss from public education!
In fact you don't have to be wealthy to attend a private school!

I am aware of the spence tuition, I'd not have mentioned If I had no knowledge of it.. however again see my previous response. There are many means of attending a superior private school without paying out your entire salary.. question is, do you wish to invest in your kids education?

See previous two responses.. plus I am not talking Texas.. I am talking inner city schools compared to Private schools!
I don't think you have done remote home work on the matter to impart with any sort of wisdom!

and hence I stated even if you can't find means to put your kids in a top ten school then even a small parochial school is better off than a public one.. I don't even know if you are arguing because you love to argue so much or because you have slight knowledge on the subject.


Indeed.. I guess that explains why the system is a mess, economically, politically and socially!
You do that, you run for office and instate back the twelfth grade they are willing to make into an 'optional!'

Those not from the united states, need to do the sane thing and google the school you'll enroll your kids into.. your children are your investment.. people who expect lowly and mediocre things out of life usually get it..

I am not much knowledgeable about US schooling system. Just wanted to say that before I begin.

Sister, is not it possible that the high drop out rate of public schools is because unintelligent people attend the school since it is free? On the other hand the low drop-out rate of private schools can be explained away if only those parents and students attend them who are studious and conscious of their education and investment of $35k?
:wa:

 

[جوري]

I am not much knowledgeable about US schooling system. Just wanted to say that before I begin.

Sister, is not it possible that the high drop out rate of public schools is because unintelligent people attend the school since it is free? On the other hand the low drop-out rate of private schools can be explained away if only those parents and students attend them who are studious and conscious of their education and investment of $35k?
:wa:

of course it is more than factor.. I did say as much in my very first posts.. I believe having a positive environment at home, investing in good school, good activities, good friends, a positive Islamic environment all contribute to shaping model individuals..

 

[titus]

mad_scientist,

That is exactly the point I made earlier when I was talking about the confusion of cause and effect.

The public schools are not the cause of the pregnancies and drop outs, nor are private schools themselves the major factors in their low rates. I am glad to see that you don't get insulted for making that same point though. ;D

Even if it were a 'minority of students' which it isn't.. it is quite substantial, they are concentrated in the public school system

Not a minority of students? Are you actually claiming that the majority of public school students get pregnant and/or drop out? We already know that 90% of kids go to public schools, therefore you claim that pretty much half of the US 18 year olds are either pregnant or dropped out of school (or both)?

I would be very interested to see your data to back up that absurd claim.

There is no point for folks here to wait and find out the hard way..as the Arabic adage goes.. if a door open has a potential to bring you torrential storms then shut it!

I think a more proper adage would be "do not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Yes, the public school system does need improvements, that does not mean that the system needs to be scrapped and that we should go to a system in which every child is sent to a private school.

This is relevant how? I have already stated and repeatedly, to get an excellent education at a top school, all you need to do is show potential.

Not really. While it is possible to get financial aide to a top school, only an extremely small minority of those that show potential actually have the chance make it in. The top schools limit the number of students they allow in. This leaves the majority of those that "show potential" with few options.

The majority are going to be selected for their financial ability, the minority are selected for their academic ability. I believe at Spence it was only 30% that were on financial aid, correct?

Public schools have begun addressing these concerns by creating magnet schools. The admission to many of these public schools is based on merit. In other words, to those that show potential (and without having to pay $24,000 a year).

though what is pertinent to top schools is as well universities .. certainly students who show potential can have financial aids and scholarships..

Again, though, those scholarships are limited in number. Very few of those that apply for scholarships get anything close to a full ride through college. The majority still have to pay for most of the costs associated with university.

I think Muslims however should institute a program to help those seeking a higher education so that no one would fall into the pits of interests that has so ensnared westerners for the rest of their miserable lives!

Are you speaking of starting or donating to a scholarship for Muslims? That would be a great idea. Many exist already. I did a quick search and found the Fadel Educational Foundation as an example. The site also has links to other Muslim oriented scholarships.

Or did you have some other idea in mind, like a Muslim only university in the USA?

 

[جوري]

mad_scientist,

That is exactly the point I made earlier when I was talking about the confusion of cause and effect.

The public schools are not the cause of the pregnancies and drop outs, nor are private schools themselves the major factors in their low rates. I am glad to see that you don't get insulted for making that same point though. ;D

To which I specifically replied:

Also I have never said that the public education system only breeds pregnant/ignorant/dropouts.. go back again to page one and try to read slowly taking all in before getting that nervous tick to get another worthless comment down!

all the best!

more than once.. the conclusion we can draw here is that the public education system is so ailing and breeds folks like you, where simple written words don't cross the synapse!

Not a minority of students? Are you actually claiming that the majority of public school students get pregnant and/or drop out? We already know that 90% of kids go to public schools, therefore you claim that pretty much half of the US 18 year olds are either pregnant or dropped out of school (or both)?

See above and try to read.. I get tired of repeating myself, simply because you have a non-point, and in desperate need for attention!

I would be very interested to see your data to back up that absurd claim.

I am asking you to provide us data head to head with schools I mentioned to see how they compare turning my request around doesn't exempt you from doing homework!

I think a more proper adage would be "do not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

No relevance as usual!

Yes, the public school system does need improvements, that does not mean that the system needs to be scrapped and that we should go to a system in which every child is sent to a private school.

I never said it should be scrapped, I think it is appropriate for certain people!

Not really. While it is possible to get financial aide to a top school, only an extremely small minority of those that show potential actually have the chance make it in. The top schools limit the number of students they allow in. This leaves the majority of those that "show potential" with few options.

and hence I stated any small private or parochial would still be better than a public school, from the lowest common denominator the 12th grade won't be optional!

The majority are going to be selected for their financial ability, the minority are selected for their academic ability. I believe at Spence it was only 30% that were on financial aid, correct?

What is your point?

Public schools have begun addressing these concerns by creating magnet schools. The admission to many of these public schools is based on merit. In other words, to those that show potential (and without having to pay $24,000 a year).

That is good.. you chance it, as stated before my concerns here don't address the average american kid!

Again, though, those scholarships are limited in number. Very few of those that apply for scholarships get anything close to a full ride through college. The majority still have to pay for most of the costs associated with university.

Can't put a price on good education!

Are you speaking of starting or donating to a scholarship for Muslims? That would be a great idea. Many exist already. I did a quick search and found the Fadel Educational Foundation as an example. The site also has links to other Muslim oriented scholarships.

Excellent!

Or did you have some other idea in mind, like a Muslim only university in the USA?

No-- not a Muslim only university, but the ability for Muslims seeking high education to do so without usury!


all the best

 

[titus]

See above and try to read.. I get tired of repeating myself, simply because you have a non-point, and in desperate need for attention!

I don't see anything you wrote that shows that over half of American public school children are either dropouts or pregnant. Please refresh my poorly educated memory.

I am asking you to provide us data head to head with schools I mentioned to see how they compare turning my request around doesn't exempt you from doing homework!

Chicago of Illinois Study

Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.

This finding is nothing new
— private school students in the United States have typically scored higher than public school
students on standardized tests, confirming the perception among the US public and policymakers
that private schools are inherently more effective than public schools.
However, the real question for researchers and policymakers is whether differences in test
scores between various school types — public schools, charter schools, or Catholic and other
private schools — are primarily due to differences in the student populations served by these
different sectors. Earlier research on school sector effects indicated that private schools score
higher even after adjusting for the fact that these schools tend to serve students with fewer “risk”
factors. And yet, a few more recent studies have found instances where, after employing
statistical controls to account for the differences in student populations, achievement in public
schools has been equal to or, in some cases, higher than those of private schools (as described
below).

US Dept of Education Statistics

Shows that a majority of US students are going to college after graduation, and the majority of those are graduating within 6 years.

Small study in Washington DC

Each study investigated whether there was a difference in the rankings of the colleges and universities that enrolled Lafayette graduates who had attended public high schools versus those who attended private high schools. The results show that there is no significant difference in the rankings of colleges and universities where students were enrolled based on public versus private high school attendance.

Slightly off topic, but amusing study

For our study, we hypothesized that private high school students would be more successful in college, due to more moderate alcohol consumption levels and more well developed study habits...... However, we were able to conclude that students who attended private high schools drink more in college (t = .019, p<.05) than those who attended public high schools.

Basically, most of the data will show that private school students performed better than public school students. The question, though, is "is it because of the schools or the students?".

Private schools can reject students based on performance or attitude, while public schools cannot. That alone skews the numbers greatly.

Think about it. It's like being in the gym where you have two teams and two team captains. In this case, though, one team captain gets to pick his entire team while the other team captain gets the leftovers

Now tell me, when the first team plays the second team and wins, is it because the first guy is a better team captain? Of course not.

If I start a private school and have admission tests, you bet I'm going to select some students that perform well so that my numbers look good. I would be stupid not to. Because of that even if the education level was exactly the same my results would still look better. And because my students have parents that actually care about their education my graduation rates and college entrance rates will be better also, even if I do nothing more than create an educational environment completely on par with public schools.

Public schools have to take the students that won't perform well. Private schools don't, therefore the numbers you want me to provide will be skewed. The original study I linked takes away those factors and finds little difference between the quality of education that one gets in either private or public schools.

and hence I stated any small private or parochial would still be better than a public school, from the lowest common denominator the 12th grade won't be optional!

Those schools still cost thousands of dollars a year that millions of parents in this country don't have.

Can't put a price on good education!

Yes you can. Every college has a tuition. The question is how to get the money.

 

[جوري]

I don't see anything you wrote that shows that over half of American public school children are either dropouts or pregnant. Please refresh my poorly educated memory.

Go check what you wrote to assert a moot point!

Chicago of Illinois Study

Overall, the study demonstrates that demographic differences between
students in public and private schools more than account for the relatively high raw scores of
private schools. Indeed, after controlling for these differences, the presumably advantageous
“private school effect” disappears, and even reverses in most cases.

This finding is nothing new
— private school students in the United States have typically scored higher than public school
students on standardized tests, confirming the perception among the US public and policymakers
that private schools are inherently more effective than public schools.
However, the real question for researchers and policymakers is whether differences in test
scores between various school types — public schools, charter schools, or Catholic and other
private schools — are primarily due to differences in the student populations served by these
different sectors. Earlier research on school sector effects indicated that private schools score
higher even after adjusting for the fact that these schools tend to serve students with fewer “risk”
factors. And yet, a few more recent studies have found instances where, after employing
statistical controls to account for the differences in student populations, achievement in public
schools has been equal to or, in some cases, higher than those of private schools (as described
below).

US Dept of Education Statistics

Shows that a majority of US students are going to college after graduation, and the majority of those are graduating within 6 years.

Small study in Washington DC

Each study investigated whether there was a difference in the rankings of the colleges and universities that enrolled Lafayette graduates who had attended public high schools versus those who attended private high schools. The results show that there is no significant difference in the rankings of colleges and universities where students were enrolled based on public versus private high school attendance.

Slightly off topic, but amusing study

For our study, we hypothesized that private high school students would be more successful in college, due to more moderate alcohol consumption levels and more well developed study habits...... However, we were able to conclude that students who attended private high schools drink more in college (t = .019, p<.05) than those who attended public high schools.

Basically, most of the data will show that private school students performed better than public school students. The question, though, is "is it because of the schools or the students?".

Private schools can reject students based on performance or attitude, while public schools cannot. That alone skews the numbers greatly.

Think about it. It's like being in the gym where you have two teams and two team captains. In this case, though, one team captain gets to pick his entire team while the other team captain gets the leftovers

Now tell me, when the first team plays the second team and wins, is it because the first guy is a better team captain? Of course not.

If I start a private school and have admission tests, you bet I'm going to select some students that perform well so that my numbers look good. I would be stupid not to. Because of that even if the education level was exactly the same my results would still look better. And because my students have parents that actually care about their education my graduation rates and college entrance rates will be better also, even if I do nothing more than create an educational environment completely on par with public schools.

Public schools have to take the students that won't perform well. Private schools don't, therefore the numbers you want me to provide will be skewed. The original study I linked takes away those factors and finds little difference between the quality of education that one gets in either private or public schools.

That is all I got out of your studies:
private schools scored higher than noncharter
public schools, as would be expected.

and ranking colleges doesn't differ amongst the students.. I am therefore not sure what your point is? It was never solely on education although it is an important factor, rather the entire package and environment in which to raise ones kids!
you keep arguing over and over and I am not sure exactly what your point is? Are you trying to prove to me that you are every bit as worthy? I have started this thread by confirming that two homeless girls went to Harvard for having the tenacity and drive.. chances however favor folks who are better prepared!

Those schools still cost thousands of dollars a year that millions of parents in this country don't have.

Indeed.. and that is tough for the average middle class american.. perhaps they ought to think about their kids education before electing the next war monger?

Yes you can. Every college has a tuition. The question is how to get the money.

Send your boys overseas and start endless wars and character assassination of folks over there, monopolize their lands and steal their oil and become a warlord.. isn't that how it is usually done?

all the best

 

[Woodrow]

One problem with education is as education levels increase, the available workers for production jobs decreases. I think we have worked ourselves into a box in which very few graduates are going into the production and manufacturing fields.

When my parents were students public education only went to the 6th grade, in my school years it extended to the age of 16 for most students and for Academically gifted to 12th grade. By the time my children became students it pretty well extended to at least Junior College and/or vocational schools.

We ended up with a surplus of very well trained students with no need or desire to enter into the crafts, production, agricultural, and manufacturing/construction fields. we have become a nation of service providers and military careers. The largest employer in the USA is government employment.

A listing of the 50 major US employers outside government is scary:

http://nyjobsource.com/largestemployers.html

Who in the US still produces food, makes shoes and clothing or builds houses?
We are top heavy in the Management, Services, and distribution fields and nobody wants to dirty their hands to put potatoes on the table.



Perhaps the government is trying to break this trend and force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields?

 

[titus]

I have started this thread by confirming that two homeless girls went to Harvard for having the tenacity and drive.. chances however favor folks who are better prepared!

The fact that you have to point that out proves my point. Money should not matter, only ability.

Private schools make money a major factor. Public schools do not.

That is all I got out of your studies:
private schools scored higher than noncharter
public schools, as would be expected.

Then read them more thoroughly. You will see that the private schools fared better in the tests because they had higher standards of admission. Public schools do not turn away people for lower test scores, therefore their scores are going to be lower.

It is not as if the public schools and private schools are starting with the same level of students and then, because of superior education, the private school students suddenly excel.

Send your boys overseas and start endless wars and character assassination of folks over there, monopolize their lands and steal their oil and become a warlord.. isn't that how it is usually done?

I don't know anyone that paid for school by stealing oil or becoming a warlord. I am sure if there are any they are in the minority. Please try and stay on topic.

Perhaps the government is trying to break this trend and force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields?

I doubt that. It almost sounds as if you are arguing that too much education is a bad thing. Even an educated farmer is better off than an ignorant one.

If the government wanted to force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields then the smartest route would be to increase incentives into agricultural and vocational schools, not try to increase those without a high school diploma.

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

 

[جوري]

The fact that you have to point that out proves my point. Money should not matter, only ability.

Private schools make money a major factor. Public schools do not.

show me where I said anywhere around here that money matters over education?

Then read them more thoroughly. You will see that the private schools fared better in the tests because they had higher standards of admission. Public schools do not turn away people for lower test scores, therefore their scores are going to be lower.

Indeed.. one of the many many factors (as per my assertions) that make public schools an abomination!

It is not as if the public schools and private schools are starting with the same level of students and then, because of superior education, the private school students suddenly excel.

Yup, not the same starting point, again what is your point? you like to assert the obvious? I have been saying private education is superior all along!

I don't know anyone that paid for school by stealing oil or becoming a warlord. I am sure if there are any they are in the minority. Please try and stay on topic.

We are talking about the average american citizen. Not Muslims..

I doubt that. It almost sounds as if you are arguing that too much education is a bad thing. Even an educated farmer is better off than an ignorant one.

No, I am arguing that you relentlessly prove to us the ills of a public education in both your reports and your person!

If the government wanted to force the populace back into the production and agrarian fields then the smartest route would be to increase incentives into agricultural and vocational schools, not try to increase those without a high school diploma.

The populace should be forced into war and destruction, not something productive..

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

I have never lived in texas!

all the best

 

[Woodrow]

In fact, if they were trying to increase the cheap labor pool the obvious answer would be to relax immigration laws, but the trend is going the opposite way. I believe you used to live in Texas, you can probably answer as well as anyone what kind of people here do much of the farmwork.

In Texas the majority of farm work is done by seasonal migrant farm hands coming out LEGALLY from Mexico, although the illegal workers get the publicity, most Mexican farm labor does come into the country legaly. It is nearly impossible to get an American to work on a farm.
Texas, Louisiana and Colorado have outstanding Agricultural Colleges, but there is a shortage of qualified applicants for them. The incentives and programs are out there. But, they are not popular fields for too many. There is also a bona fide need. We are reaching the point were our meat products are now becoming an import item. True we are still the major exporter of grains and vegetables, but we are becoming more dependent on meat and fish imports.

A good farm manager can earn over a $100,000 per year and good hard working ranch hands can earn more than the average professional.

Yes, education is a good thing to have. I have a reasonably good level of education, which is absolutely useless in the horse ranching I now do. It is also quite useless for life on the rez. I am all in favor for advanced education, but it is only of any value if it is applicable to a persons life.

 

[titus]

show me where I said anywhere around here that money matters over education?

You misunderstand.

The quality of education you receive should depend on your ability, not on how much money your parents make. That is the case with public schools. Not so with private ones.

Indeed.. one of the many many factors (as per my assertions) that make public schools an abomination!

Can you show me one study that students with the same socio-economic backgrounds and parental support do better in private school than public school? The study I linked and quoted shows there is little difference. The student does the same, it is just that the private schools won't allow the troubled students in.

Private schools can ignore those with disadvantages. Public schools cannot. That is the major factor in better test scores for private schools.

No, I am arguing that you relentlessly prove to us the ills of a public education in both your reports and your person!

I have never lived in texas!

I was responding to Woodrow's post. You would probably get much less upset at my posts if you understood what I was saying in context.

A good farm manager can earn over a $100,000 per year and good hard working ranch hands can earn more than the average professional.

I am no expert on farm work so I will take your word for that. Is the money predictable, though? Or is it still extremely dependent on weather and such? I also hear that the money spent on equipment for farming is exorbitant and the profit margin for farmers is quite small. Is that accurate?

In Texas the majority of farm work is done by seasonal migrant farm hands coming out LEGALLY from Mexico, although the illegal workers get the publicity, most Mexican farm labor does come into the country legaly. It is nearly impossible to get an American to work on a farm.

I am in the food industry and trust me, if all the illegal immigrants left one day then the majority of restaurants in Texas would have to close til they could hire new kitchen staffs.

I am all in favor for advanced education, but it is only of any value if it is applicable to a persons life.

That is if you look at advanced education solely as a means to an occupation. I have a different perspective as I received in a degree then went into a completely different direction. I believe an uneducated populace is a recipe for disaster in a democracy in which the people elect representatives to make and enforce their laws.

Without knowing their history, or being able to critically analyze what those running for office are promising then each vote is made out of ignorance. I would rather have an educated, intelligent horse rancher out voting on the direction of this nation than some guy who didn't graduate and thinks Politician Bob has the best TV commercial.\

I would also much rather have the problem of too many people being educated than not enough.

 

[Woodrow]

I am no expert on farm work so I will take your word for that. Is the money predictable, though? Or is it still extremely dependent on weather and such?

It is cycler and a good farmer can not think in terms of one year, you have to think in terms of 5-7 year increments. Over a seven year period you can predicate a very reasonable profit. But typically that profit will be based on the production of a single year. You need to learn that the one good year is going to have to carry you for the next 5-7 years and budget those profits out. A farmer can expect a total loss for 1 year 4 years of cost=profit and 2 years of profit, one of them minimal about 10% and one being a "bumper" year that will be a profit of from 10 to 25 times the years cost. Most farms faill on their first year because of failure to have the financial backing to cover for the first 10 years.

I also hear that the money spent on equipment for farming is exorbitant and the profit margin for farmers is quite small. Is that accurate?

A combine that you will use 3 to 4 days a year will cost at least $500,000, but in those 3 or 4 days you can harvest over 1,000 acres of grain with a profit of nearly $1,000 per acre on that one good year.

For a farm to stand a chance of success you need to think of a minimum size of 10,000 acres for a truck farm and 100,000 acres for livestock. You also need quite a few dependable employees.

I am in the food industry and trust me, if all the illegal immigrants left one day then the majority of restaurants in Texas would have to close til they could hire new kitchen staffs.

For the restaurant/hotel industry in Texas, that sounds very accurate. The migrant farm workers are virtually all legal green card holders and sign on with the harvesters and follow the harvesting seasons from Texas up into Manitoba Canada. They make out quite well as room and board is provided and virtually their income is all sent to their families in Meico. Typically they work 9 months out of the year and spend 3 months with family for the rest of the year.

That is if you look at advanced education solely as a means to an occupation. I have a different perspective as I received in a degree then went into a completely different direction. I believe an uneducated populace is a recipe for disaster in a democracy in which the people elect representatives to make and enforce their laws.

I am all in favor for education. But caution must be taken that the education does not lead you into a wasichu life style. (Wasichu is a Lakotah word, it's exact meaning is "white person" but what is meant is a destructive life style)

Without knowing their history, or being able to critically analyze what those running for office are promising then each vote is made out of ignorance. I would rather have an educated, intelligent horse rancher out voting on the direction of this nation than some guy who didn't graduate and thinks Politician Bob has the best TV commercial.\

Sounds reasonable

I would also much rather have the problem of too many people being educated than not enough.

I would prefer they had intelligence and wisdom, an education does not always give either one. Education, need not take place in a university setting. Some of the greatest minds in history never attended any university.

 

[جوري]

You misunderstand.

The quality of education you receive should depend on your ability, not on how much money your parents make. That is the case with public schools. Not so with private ones.

? Have we not covered this part? as stated previously I so tire of repeating myself!

Can you show me one study that students with the same socio-economic backgrounds and parental support do better in private school than public school? The study I linked and quoted shows there is little difference. The student does the same, it is just that the private schools won't allow the troubled students in.

What is the purpose of this study? The topic here is the failing public school system, not a moronity you conjured up. There is no comparison between public schools and private schools in levels of excellence, individualized attention, structure and principled.. One is more likely to succeed in an environment where they can focus on one task (studying) rather than a million other things up to and including missing an entire school year!

Private schools can ignore those with disadvantages. Public schools cannot. That is the major factor in better test scores for private schools.

So true!
so again, make more checks payable to the P.S. of your choice and ask it not to be funneled to creating more Humvees for your soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or Yemen or whomever else rubbed you the wrong way or sitting on a potential gold mine that your greedy politicians snatch..

I was responding to Woodrow's post. You would probably get much less upset at my posts if you understood what I was saying in context.

Firstly, I am not upset, I am annoyed. If you could stop being redundant or come up with crap scenarios of no relevance, we could have been done with these a few pages ago.

as a last point (which reflects in all my posts).. if you can limit all the potential challenging variables, kids will fare better and chance to thrive and grow and contribute.. I think two more factors that are ancillary though in my opinion quite relevant, would be a school uniform and gender specific programs!

 

[titus]

One is more likely to succeed in an environment where they can focus on one task (studying) rather than a million other things up to and including missing an entire school year!

Only there is no evidence to support your assertion that a student taken out of public school will suddenly improve their performance in a private school. If you cannot show that then all your assertions are baseless. The study I mentioned, which you asked "What is the purpose of this study?", shows that there is no difference.

If you could stop being redundant or come up with crap scenarios of no relevance, we could have been done with these a few pages ago.

I am sorry you find my posts redundant, but I keep repeating myself and trying to phrase things differently because you are having difficulty understanding the points I am making. Of course that is understandable when you cannot even realize when I am responding to one of your posts or someone elses.

So, again, do you have any studies that show that most students taken from public schools would improve their performance in a private school? Do you have any data that shows the superior test scores for private schools have any factors involved other than the admission tests for the students?

I am all in favor for education. But caution must be taken that the education does not lead you into a wasichu life style. (Wasichu is a Lakotah word, it's exact meaning is "white person" but what is meant is a destructive life style)

That is very interesting. I am not familiar with wasichu, but would you find it similar to the peer pressure that some other minorities feel to not appear to be too educated because they would be selling out, or the phenomenon of "acting white"? Do you feel that this attitude may hinder what may be a valuable education experience?

 

[جوري]

Only there is no evidence to support your assertion that a student taken out of public school will suddenly improve their performance in a private school. If you cannot show that then all your assertions are baseless. The study I mentioned, which you asked "What is the purpose of this study?", shows that there is no difference.

The difference is palpable on how the two compare on the road to college. Obviously no one sane will compare if a street hot-dog tastes better if served at Alain Ducasse .. what exactly is the baseline of comparison? that your stomach is full? It is an entire experience, ingredients that go into the making, an upbringing a way of life.. and yes though I don't want to turn this subjective, my sr. tells me of a co-worker who saw a dramatic change in his son after taking him out of the hood of a public school that he was in and put him in a parochial school. New friends, new life style, better performance, focus etc.
So pls spare me more of your inane platitudes!

I am sorry you find my posts redundant, but I keep repeating myself and trying to phrase things differently because you are having difficulty understanding the points I am making. Of course that is understandable when you cannot even realize when I am responding to one of your posts or someone elses.

You repeat yourself because you suffer from some sort of schizophrenic echolalia, if you really had something of substance to impart it would have resonated and made sense, you wouldn't be taking the circuitous route to assert your constant non-points and one has no idea what they are anyway? That your average red-necker can do well in the local P.S? well then good-- I am glad they exert to make something of themselves.. How does this concern Muslims and how they should raise their kids?

So, again, do you have any studies that show that most students taken from public schools would improve their performance in a private school? Do you have any data that shows the superior test scores for private schools have any factors involved other than the admission tests for the students?

See paragraph one..

I think this article is more than sufficient to show who heads where after completing an excellent well structured education to what you propose:

At the top is an all-girls school on the Upper East Side known as one of the best schools in the city, Brearley. It was the only school to earn an "A+" grade on the Sun's survey. In the past three years, 12 Harvard freshmen hailed from Brearley —

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/brearley-tops-survey-of-private-schools/70489/

can you show me one public school that had at least three of its kids in an ivy league for one year not consecutively?

as for the rest:

In this issue...
Private Schools Outpace National Average on AP Exams
Private School Students Above Average on Science Tests
School Safety Report Released
New Study on Graduation Rates
CAPENotes



http://www.capenet.org/Outlook/Out12-01.html

do you still think you have something to say? resilience is trait of warts not high achievers if your only claim to fame is that you keep coming back for more!

all the best

 

[Woodrow]

That is very interesting. I am not familiar with wasichu, but would you find it similar to the peer pressure that some other minorities feel to not appear to be too educated because they would be selling out, or the phenomenon of "acting white"? Do you feel that this attitude may hinder what may be a valuable education experience?

The Lakotah favor further education, but they do not want to have it enslave them to the white lifestyle. Somethings the Lakotah do not recognize are private ownership of land, payment of taxes, needless killing of any living creature, and any man made structures that damage or despoil the natural beauty of the land.

They are extremely environment aware and see man's role as being stewards of the land and protectors of the animals.

The education they seek is that which teaches them how to protect the land and live on it without damaging it. Wealth is meaningless if it comes at the price of harming the earth. The Oglala/Lakotah could easily become some of the wealthiest people on earth if they exploited the black Hills for the gold deposits or exploited the Bracken Oil Pool that most of the Lakotah live on top of. Some of the things they are seeking is to use is the harnessing of windpower for generating low cost, environmentally friendly production of electricity, revitalization of the bison herds which provided them with all of their needs for thousands of years, restoration of the prairie lands and a return of the traditional agrarian/nomadic life.

At the moment there are at least 3 different Lakotah groups all striving for the same end but each with wanting to use different means. There are those who want to follow the suggestion of AIM and achieve this end through negotiation, There are those of us who follow Russell Means and his goal for the recognition of "The Republic of Lakotah" as a sovereign nation and there is the small but highly vocal "Warrior Society" who want to drive all things white off of "Turtle Island"(North America)

But, I find that most Lakotah value education, but they want the education to be that which will lead to a return of the traditional values and end USA government interference.

 

[titus]

I think this article is more than sufficient to show who heads where after completing an excellent well structured education to what you propose:

At the top is an all-girls school on the Upper East Side known as one of the best schools in the city, Brearley. It was the only school to earn an "A+" grade on the Sun's survey. In the past three years, 12 Harvard freshmen hailed from Brearley

This point is moot. Brearley has admission standards that public schools do not. Did Brearley choose these students because they showed the most promise to excel, or were they average students that Brearley groomed into Harvard students?

Brearley claims to accept students based on their academic promise. If they only accept the most promising of students wouldn't it be expected that they would have better than average results?

Where is the evidence that it was the quality of the school and not the initial quality of the students?

do you still think you have something to say? resilience is trait of warts not high achievers if your only claim to fame is that you keep coming back for more!

The closest you have come to backing up your claim was a personal anecdote you heard third hand, yet you insult me when I bring up my first hand personal stories.

I showed you a scientific study showing that the quality of education in public and private schools was pretty much the same, that the difference in results in mainly based on the admissions - not the quality of the teaching. You have given me a personal anecdote. You have not given me any evidence to refute it.

I admit that the results from private schools tend to be better than public schools. You can keep posting more links if you wish. That still does nothing to prove that those schools actually provide, on the whole, a better education.

what exactly is the baseline of comparison?

Get a group of students who are basically identical socially, economically, racially, etc. Test them for their academic abilities in say the 8th grade. Then test them again when they graduate. Is there a difference in the results between those that went to public school and those that did not? The study I presented said there was not a significant difference.

 

[جوري]

This point is moot. Brearley has admission standards that public schools do not. Did Brearley choose these students because they showed the most promise to excel, or were they average students that Brearley groomed into Harvard students?

Indeed.. Public schools and private schools don't compare.. as to why they have such a high percentage into Harvard or other IVY leagues, well I assure you, they demand excellence from their students, and their students deliver!

Brearley claims to accept students based on their academic promise. If they only accept the most promising of students wouldn't it be expected that they would have better than average results?

Indeed.. I am glad you are letting the 'elitist' bunk out of the topic now.. and realizing that it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with academics.. I believe that parents who expect more from their kids and offer them more get more.. Which is what I have been saying all along. If you foster talent in a positive environment, chances will favor your child. I am not merely speaking of Brearley of Spence etc. but any strict, disciplined and structured program where funding and resources are available.. and by that I don't mean the sort of resources of passing birth control pills to 11 year old girls:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/strange/news-article.aspx?storyid=93826

or lobbying to make mandatory gardasil vaccine in children as young as 9...
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2022501520070221

difficult choice isn't it?

Where is the evidence that it was the quality of the school and not the initial quality of the students?

Are you saying that kids who go to public schools are stupider? or that rich 'elitist kids are 'smarter' which would be a complete contradiction to what you'd stated earlier.. what a sad situation you find yourself in!

The closest you have come to backing up your claim was a personal anecdote you heard third hand, yet you insult me when I bring up my first hand personal stories.

My claims have been backed up and properly sourced all along and I stated begrudgingly of a third party opinion.. however, I find your query absurd and irrelevant to the topic -- I am not going to descend to word play simply because you don't like what the facts state!

I showed you a scientific study showing that the quality of education in public and private schools was pretty much the same, that the difference in results in mainly based on the admissions - not the quality of the teaching. You have given me a personal anecdote. You have not given me any evidence to refute it.

And I have shown you studies that assert that, that kids in private school do better, go back to my very last post. You are free however to bury your head in the sand!

I admit that the results from private schools tend to be better than public schools. You can keep posting more links if you wish. That still does nothing to prove that those schools actually provide, on the whole, a better education.

The facts speak for themselves, you are again free to believe as you desire.. furthermore, I am not really sure why you are trying so hard to convince me of something that has no weight? are you this desperate for validation?

Get a group of students who are basically identical socially, economically, racially, etc. Test them for their academic abilities in say the 8th grade. Then test them again when they graduate. Is there a difference in the results between those that went to public school and those that did not? The study I presented said there was not a significant difference.

The studies I presented say otherwise, so again you put your faith and your kids in public schools.. and the Muslims on board and hopefully outside of it insha'Allah will do the wise thing and invest in a good school for their kids safety,strong moral upbringing and academic performance...


all th best!

 

[titus]

Are you saying that kids who go to public schools are stupider? or that rich 'elitist kids are 'smarter' which would be a complete contradiction to what you'd stated earlier.. what a sad situation you find yourself in!

I stand by the fact that private schools are a haven for wealthy children. The fact is that economics plays a huge role in how well students do in school, whether it is public or private.

Private schools are able to weed out those they believe will underperform, so in that regard the answer is "yes", private schools do tend to have more intelligent students. That is the major factor in their schools having better results. Why do you think private schools have admission tests? It is most assuredly not because they want to find the most average students and help improve their education. It is because they want to find the ones that will be easiest to teach. The ones that show the most promise.

The facts speak for themselves, you are again free to believe as you desire

What facts? You have yet to produce one bit of evidence contradicting my point.