Answering Atheism in one paragraph

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

Atheists will never believe in God until they see God. This is just the purest form of arrogance towards God that you can imagine. Like an orphan being supported by a person he/she has never seen before and refusing to accept that this person exists just because he/she did not see that person. God has provided you with all that you have and all He asks is for you to be grateful, yet all you show is arrogance. The Qur'aan is not a book of science, it is a book of signs. All atheists do is speak about the "need" for a God. If you don't believe that God exists, surely you don't think you need a God, but it is impossible for someone who believes in God to think he/she doesn't need God. We human-beings need God, He doesn't need us. Before you jump to conclusions about whether God exists or not, first find out WHO God really is according to the scriptures.

When I wasn't practicing Islam, it was only because I didn't know who Allah Almighty was, you could say I was ignorant of Allah (s.w.t.) just like an atheist would be. I just knew he was the God that Muslims worshiped. Only after realizing who Allah (s.w.t.) is I started practicing the religion as much as I possibly can. So do yourself a favor, read the Qur'aan and find out who Allah (s.w.t.) is and THEN bring forth your arguments. Allah (s.w.t.) has challenged all the non-believers, including the most intelligent atheists:
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.

And Allah (s.w.t.) knows best.

Salam 3laikum

 

[~Zaria~]

As was said early on in response to MohammadR's first post, it's not possible to say with our current state of knowledge that the universe began from nothing. Our universe may be one of many which interact with each other infinitely, both in the past and into the future. As far as the multiverse is concerned, it may be that there there never was a beginning, and there will be no end.

This should not be an unimaginable concept - after all, Allah and Heaven are also described as existing infinitely.

The reason why we use the 'did the universe arise from nothing?' approach is simply because - even an atheist will accept that this does not make sense.

Which would mean that the only alternative is that the universe arose from 'something'.......we do not need to speculate what it is - Allah knows best.
And so, in this instance - there HAS to be a SOURCE/ a CREATOR for whatever it is that gave rise to this 'something'......which then gave rise to the universe.

No atheist enjoys this approach because it would mean that he has no alternative but to accept the existence of a Creator.

As has been pointed out, this flatly contradicts the views of some others in this thread and elsewhere. The Bang Bang theory has been enthusiastically adopted by many Muslims and scholars and seen as compatible with scripture.

I have not said that the Big Bang cannot be possible. Allah knows best.

The fact is: there is no way of knowing what actually occurred billions of years ago.

Through the eyes of atheists, who do not have any scriptures to 'back' them up - it is THEIR prerogative to PROVE their claim of the Big Bang.
Why?
Because their ENTIRE basis of existence lies in the Big Bang - which in itself is a hypothesis - that can never be proven.

YET: they expect mankind to disregard the revelations and messengers that have come upon the ages.....for what? A Hypothesis!

The fact that the theory has been 'adopted' by some muslim scholars is not proof in itself.

As you mention, it is not for us to try to 'mould' the verses of the Quraan to align with current day beliefs.

For muslims, whether or not the Quraan makes (possible) reference towards creation arising from a scenario similiar to the big bang (depending on ones interpretation) - does not change anything within the framework of Islam.
In fact, it matters little to us - for we know, that there are many secrets of this universe that lie with Allah (subhanawataála) alone.


Regards

 

[~Zaria~]

Atheists will never believe in God until they see God.

SubhanAllah, sounds similiar to this:

​

 

[Independent]

Islam is not in need to be proven by science...decisive answers can never be found in science alone

I understand that and I completely agree with it. That's precisely why I don't understand attempts to 'prove' Islam by reference to scientific theories and discoveries (whether it be Big Bang or anything else). By trying to root a proof in science, particularly in cutting edge speculative science which is far from complete, people run the risk of finding it contradicted at a later date.

I also understand that this means the science (man) was wrong, not Allah/God. For that very reason, how does it make sense to try and read scientific ideas into the Qur'an?

 

[Independent]

The Qur'aan is not a book of science, it is a book of signs

I agree - but if you look back to the first post, which I have been endeavoring to stick to throughout this thread, you'll see an 'argument from science', not signs.

Through the eyes of atheists, who do not have any scriptures to 'back' them up - it is THEIR prerogative to PROVE their claim of the Big Bang.
Why?
Because their ENTIRE basis of existence lies in the Big Bang - which in itself is a hypothesis - that can never be proven.

This is not correct - atheists may or may not believe in the Big Bang. They may believe in another theory, or even have no view at all of this subject. Personally, I'm not completely convinced of the Big Bang myself (although I'm not necessarily strictly an atheist either).

The reason why we use the 'did the universe arise from nothing?' approach is simply because - even an atheist will accept that this does not make sense.

I understand that this is the reason for the argument. But as I have said, in a multiverse scenario, there may be no beginning and no end. So, there is never a moment when 'something has to come from nothing'. There is no 'beginning' to be explained.

By the way, i don't think any of this is a 'proof' for atheism or a 'disproof' of divinity. As I have said already, I believe science can neither prove nor disprove divinity. I do disagree with the first post which claimed to do exactly that.

This has turned into a general discussion of atheism, but I'm not trying to answer that. Only the first post.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I understand that and I completely agree with it. That's precisely why I don't understand attempts to 'prove' Islam by reference to scientific theories and discoveries (whether it be Big Bang or anything else). By trying to root a proof in science, particularly in cutting edge speculative science which is far from complete, people run the risk of finding it contradicted at a later date.

I also understand that this means the science (man) was wrong, not Allah/God. For that very reason, how does it make sense to try and read scientific ideas into the Qur'an?

I didn't say science was wrong because that's not entirely the case. There are some things which are true and are proven by human experience. But it doesn't make sense to try and prove Islam using science when the opposite is the case. At most what is being done is showing the shortcomings of science using science itself.

 

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum all,

Science is something human-beings need to understand how the world works. Islam is not against science, and that is why you wont find a single verse in the Qur'aan that contradicts with a scientific fact. But this does not mean that we should all depend on what science tells us. The main difference between Islam and science is that what science tells us today, could be proven wrong tomorrow, this is not the case with the Qur'aan. Human-beings cannot solely depend upon science because human-beings are prone to error, God however isn't. I remember reading an article about the "scientific benefits of the way Muslims pray", okay that's all very nice and dandy, subhanAllah for this discovery, but tomorrow if science says that "the way Muslims pray can harm the body" does that mean we will stop praying? No. My point is, yes it's very nice that many verses in the Qur'aan support scientific facts of today and that is one of its miracles, but this does not mean we should blindly believe what science says because it has been proven before that science has been wrong at times, this has never been the case with the Qur'aan though, subhanAllah!

Salam 3laikum

 

[Pygoscelis]

The reason why we use the 'did the universe arise from nothing?' approach is simply because - even an atheist will accept that this does not make sense.

For the most part, yes, aside from Laurence Krauss and others like him.

Which would mean that the only alternative is that the universe arose from 'something'

It has already been noted in this thread a few times now that this isn't the only alternative. Why do you ignore that and repeat this again?

And so, in this instance - there HAS to be a SOURCE/ a CREATOR for whatever it is that gave rise to this 'something'......which then gave rise to the universe.

Again, as was said above, even if there was a first cause of everything, you have not shown that that requires a creator being, as opposed to a mere energy or force or whatever. You have not shown that it must be sentient, intelligent, much less be your God.

The fact is: there is no way of knowing what actually occurred billions of years ago.

Glad you are willing to admit that now. You don't know. So why pretend you do?

Through the eyes of atheists, who do not have any scriptures to 'back' them up - it is THEIR prerogative to PROVE their claim of the Big Bang.
Why?

Yes Why?

Because their ENTIRE basis of existence lies in the Big Bang

Who told you that? You don't have to accept the big bang theory to be an atheist. I personally find it unlikely as an ultimate starting point. I don't cease to exist or lose all basis of existence by holding that view.

 

[~Zaria~]

Greetings,

@Pygoscelis, lets summarise what you have said so far in this thread:

Why so? Perhaps it goes back infinitely. Perhaps not. I don't pretend to know.

If there is a first cause, then you have a creator, yes, or a creation force.

I see no reason to assume it is a being, a sentient being, an intelligent being, a God being, or your particular God being.

You just demanded that I provide an explanation of the universe that doesn't resort to God of the Gaps. I told you I don't have one,

In summary, the sum total of your knowledge with regards to what YOU ascribe to is..... (#drum roll#)......YOU DONT KNOW!

So, please tell us, why are you still on this thread?
And more importantly, what makes you think that the rest of the world is so gullible and naive to base the only life that they have been bestowed with, on a theory mostly based on SPECULATION or worse, in your case - IGNORANCE?

Amazing.


Yet, you further go on to say:

It has already been noted in this thread a few times now that this isn't the only alternative. Why do you ignore that and repeat this again?.

An alternative to God has not been 'noted in this thread a few times now'.
In fact, you yourself, have not been able to provide an alternative to the Creator (as from the above quoted post) - but admit that: You do not know.

So, we will indeed continue to repeat the belief in ONE CREATOR - UNTIL, someone can actually provide us with some substance to his debate.

Again, as was said above, even if there was a first cause of everything, you have not shown that that requires a creator being, as opposed to a mere energy or force or whatever. You have not shown that it must be sentient, intelligent, much less be your God.

Have YOU ever seen anything in life being 'created' or invented by anything less than an intelligent being?

Have you witnessed lifeless objects go on to produce something else?
Can a table produce a chair?
Can a car produce a bicycle?

Do you think these examples sound ridiculous?

Well, thats how ridiculous your above notion sounds to everyone else.

That this entire universe, with its immense beauty and diverse creations - all arising with such precision - has come about from:
- ?? a less intelligent source
- ?? a lifeless source

Again, if you 'do not know' the answers, and it appears that you care less to find out the answers to your existence - then save us from the lengthy posts that have no substance. Please.

Glad you are willing to admit that now. You don't know. So why pretend you do?

Lol.
Muslims do not hold fast to the 'Big Bang' theory. We have never pretended to know what exactly happened at the point of creation.

What we DO say, is that ALLAH, the Creator of all things - created this universe......in a way, that truly only HE knows best.

If there are verses in the Quraan that can 'possibly' correlate with the big bang - then so be it.

Our basis of faith is not affected in either way.

Who told you that? You don't have to accept the big bang theory to be an atheist. I personally find it unlikely as an ultimate starting point. I don't cease to exist or lose all basis of existence by holding that view.

I have to admit, this is news to me.

I have always been under the impression that all atheists accept the big bang as their starting point.

So, if you find it 'an unlikely' possibility - I wonder what you presume to be the origins of your existence.

If your answer is 'I dont know', then perhaps do yourself a favour, and start searching for these answers.

Its only in YOUR best interests to know why you are here, what is your purpose and where are you headed to.


Regards

 

[Tyrion]

In summary, the sum total of your knowledge with regards to what YOU ascribe to is..... (#drum roll#)......YOU DONT KNOW!

So, please tell us, why are you still on this thread?

His point (as he's repeated for you multiple times) is that he doesn't know certain things about the world, and religious folks don't "know" either. Not with certainty. The claim is that religious people merely pretend to know, while others own up to our general ignorance and try to figure it out by studying the world. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Pygo.

 

[Tyrion]

Since you ascribe to 'science' as the basis of what you lay claim to - we need evidence, backed up by science.

If you have none, and indeed there is NONE - then save us from the posts that contain a lot of words, but say very little.

I'm sorry, but you're one of the few religious people I've run into that vehemently rejects any notion of the Big Bang. Sure, we can't know for sure how things began, but (from what I understand, obviously) we have theories for a reason. You don't seem to have even attempted to study any of the science behind a lot of what you claim is bogus, so I think it might be wise to do so before getting into a debate online.

 

[Tyrion]

Lol.

You've closed the case even though you have nothing to support your position.

Ahh, atheists - what a funny bunch of characters : )


Regards

I'm always depressed when I see these "debates" and notice the Muslim/religious side has worse manners than the atheist side. Politeness and respect goes a long way, you know, even if it's one sided. I'll admit, this Tjalcapone guy doesn't seem like the most humble dude, but you use this tone even with pygo who is one of our more civil members.

EDIT: Sorry I split this response into 3 separate posts, I got lazy... :

 

[~Zaria~]

His point (as he's repeated for you multiple times) is that he doesn't know certain things about the world, and religious folks don't "know" either. Not with certainty. The claim is that religious people merely pretend to know, while others own up to our general ignorance and try to figure it out by studying the world. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Pygo.

Yes, brother - that is exactly what I am confirming in my previous post.

Which is why it is astounding for one who is in ignorance about a matter, to try to convince others of their position.

'Religious folks' do not need to know the secrets of the universe - whether or not the universe began with a big bang, is immaterial to us.

Our faith lies in the belief in the Creator.

For the atheist who, does ascribe to the big bang, it is HIS duty to:

1. Provide us evidence.
2. Explain to us where the immense energy that was required, actually came from. What is its Source?


If they do not have the answers to this, then surely they cannot expect those who DO have the answers to discard them......and follow their ignorance instead.


Salaam

 

[~Zaria~]

I'm sorry, but you're one of the few religious people I've run into that vehemently rejects any notion of the Big Bang. Sure, we can't know for sure how things began, but (from what I understand, obviously) we have theories for a reason. You don't seem to have even attempted to study any of the science behind a lot of what you have an issue with, so I think it might be wise to do so before getting into a debate online.

I do not 'reject' the Big Bang.

Im cutting it down to size.

I do not need to provide scientific hypotheses for the big bang - and indeed there are many - and try to debate an atheist on this level.

In this case, their argument will never end.

They simply bring out one scientific explanation after another - which is in no way evidence for the non-existence of a Creator.

The fact is, they are not able to answer the simple questions put forth in this thread (by their own admission, 'they do not know'), yet they wish to get into the proposed science behind an event, the details of which will always remain unknown.

 

[Abz2000]

His point (as he's repeated for you multiple times) is that he doesn't know certain things about the world, and religious folks don't "know" either. Not with certainty. The claim is that religious people merely pretend to know, while others own up to our general ignorance and try to figure it out by studying the world. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Pygo.

lol what are you? a defence attorney?

The term atheism originates from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)".

The foundation of atheism is based on the rejection of the existence of God,
so no matter how much one tells us "it may be possible" or "I'm not saying there is no God, but that we aren't sure", the brand they subscribe to is itself closed minded to honest research and reflection - because they have to start off by discarding the best explanation (which they themselves are unable to outright refute) - no matter how high the possibility or probability.
Which gives me an in long as to why the term "kufr" (usually translated as disbelief), actually means COVERING OR CONCEALING.

 

[~Zaria~]

I'm always depressed when I see these "debates" and notice the Muslim/religious side has worse manners than the atheist side. Politeness and respect goes a long way, you know, even if it's one sided. I'll admit, this Tjalcapone guy doesn't seem like the most humble dude, but you use this tone even with pygo who is one of our more civil members.

EDIT: Sorry I split this response into 3 separate posts, I got lazy... :

Theres no harm in finding some humour in irrational arguments. This is not a sign of disrespect - but an indication that we are now on post #~80, and still they continue to evade the questions that are critical for the basis of the non-existence of God. And then, go further to state that the 'case is closed'.

Perhaps, it may be best to re-evaluate your own stance with regards to this debate. As people of 'Laa illaha illala' - we should hold firmly to this, and not get side-tracked by theories that go against the foundations of our imaan.


A little more humour in this short clip illustrating the absurdity of the 'infinite regress' model:

 

[Independent]

I remember reading an article about the "scientific benefits of the way Muslims pray", okay that's all very nice and dandy, subhanAllah for this discovery, but tomorrow if science says that "the way Muslims pray can harm the body" does that mean we will stop praying? No.

Exactly - and that is one of the reasons I object to the first post from MohammadR (beside being untrue). By proclaiming that he has miraculously discovered a scientific 'proof' that a divine being exists, he leads Muslims (and believers in other faiths for that matter) into doubt when they discover that this 'proof' is contradicted.

On the other hand, if this proof doesn't really relate to the strength of his faith in Allah anyway, then why bother to say it in the first place?

it's very nice that many verses in the Qur'an support scientific facts of today and that is one of its miracles

I understand why you say this, but it's this sentiment that has led to the mistake of the first poster. What does it matter if any verse appears to match a scientific 'fact' if the only definition of a 'fact' is whether it matches the Qur'an?

Wouldn't it be better to leave science out of the Qur'an and faith altogether? For believers, a knowledge of some aspects of science can deepen and enhance their faith (as Zaria describes). But the modern day habit of trying to 'redefine' Qur'anic verses (and Biblical verses for that matter) to achieve questionable matches with scientific advances can only create confusion and conflict.

There is no 'war' between science and religion - they have nothing directly to do with each other.

 

[جوري]

beside being untrue

You and the rest keep expressing that vehemently, yet somehow exempt yourselves from presenting the 'truth'- is he not allowed to conjecture as much as the next guy using the same tools that we're all equipped to use?
We will all be anxiously awaiting the truth rather than long winded nonsensical sermons.

The noble book will never be reduced to a casual topic of conversation to be shared merely by the faithful nor are we redefining the verses. Let's see your degree in Uloom Al'Quran and hadith for you to drop such statements and so casually!

best,

 

[جوري]

"without god(s)".

Which brings us to the original double negative doesn't it. They've neither proved that God doesn't exist nor offered a scientific & demonstrable explanation to the world we find ourselves in given the obvious which is that we along with billions of other species weren't always in existence!

 

[M.I.A.]

this thread must have been made a hundred times already,

lets forget that there is a god for a moment...

the only way to approach an athiest is to prove or at least validate a counter argument.

and forgetting scripture i feel there must be another way.. to at least form the first stepping stones of belief or want for belief.


the easiest way is to look towards science which is more than proof for most athiests,

to look at the conformity of the universe..

which is becoming a buzzword in itself, the amount of people that are substituting god for universe is increasing..

or maybe im just in the circles which make me notice it more.


anyway back to the universe and its structure.

it is entirely ordered.

even to animals and insects it is ordered.

innate natures and behaviours that extend all the way up to humans.

i know athiests will say that a person has free will and so do animals but those innate natures that underly free will are a big un-noticed part of life for most.

(lets call it programming because its a very easily understood concept)

unless you claim that science is the only definative explanation of how and why.


the above arguments is no proof of anything in itself but it fits in very well with the thiest muslim belief of a god that is all controlling, knowing.. and yet allows for free will.

so why believe in a god that does not exist?


well i would hope it would make you notice things more.

the interactions and order would become more apparent.


but why make things more complicated your probably perfectly fine as you are.


well i guess if any of you is entirely happy with his interactions with the physical world then... you are entirely oblivious.


which makes me wonder just how you get by.


...not really because my personal belief is that we are all under god.


i mean as an athiest how do you approach people of belief in the real world?

what sort of environment do you create for them?


most people dont give it a second thaught.

and even if you did its not like you could do anything about it right?


and even if you tried some things.. most things are beyond changing. just sporadic random events that change lives.

well for some anyway.


anyway i guess the self sufficient amongst you are not worried by such things.


so at this point it really is just you trying to be who you want to be and achieve your goals. i mean like i said its you that creates your future right?


...but at some point you will have to look at the stragglers and those left by the wayside of your wake.


and then you will want to pray to a non existant god for something or other.

or you just carry on and be yourself, wherever that takes you and whoever that helps.


its random but i guess its better than spouting lines you would not believe.

sorry for spelling mistakes also.


the place is entirely a test of character.

and real life is literally a stage.


take an external look at yourself and then take heed... or not.


that last line is something that would make a person pray, because if you cant change you... then who can?