Answering Atheism in one paragraph

[May Ayob]

Do atheists believe in miracles? and if they do,how do they interpret their occurence?.

 

[Independent]

Do atheists believe in miracles? and if they do,how do they interpret their occurence?.

Literal miracles, no.

Metaphorical miracles (for instance, a 'miraculous victory against the odds') yes.

An atheist would assume that there must be a rational explanation for whatever occurred.

 

[May Ayob]

Literal miracles, no.

Metaphorical miracles (for instance, a 'miraculous victory against the odds') yes.

An atheist would assume that there must be a rational explanation for whatever occurred.

Thank you for the reply. But what if there is no rational explanation to be found? How does an atheist come about the matter?.

 

[Pygoscelis]

In summary, the sum total of your knowledge with regards to what YOU ascribe to is..... (#drum roll#)......YOU DONT KNOW!

So, please tell us, why are you still on this thread?

Why wouldn't I be? I entered this thread to address the OP, which claimed to "answer atheism in one paragraph" but wasn't one paragraph and made no comment on atheism, instead speaking only of first cause and asserting the universe to be a closed system. It made no attempt to show how that would denounce atheism it if is. It also made no attempt to prove that it is.

And more importantly, what makes you think that the rest of the world is so gullible and naive to base the only life that they have been bestowed with, on a theory mostly based on SPECULATION or worse, in your case - IGNORANCE?

Where are you getting this from? I didn't tell anybody to base their life on anything. I am not telling people to live their life according to some religious code to get some celestial reward or avoid some punishment.

An alternative to God has not been 'noted in this thread a few times now'.

Um.... You wrote.

Which would mean that the only alternative is that the universe arose from 'something'

No, that is not the only alternative. The universe may have always been, may be cyclical, may be a spin off from a mltiverse, etc. You have been told this multiple times in this very thread by multiple posters and you have ignored it because it does not suit your pre-made argument.

In fact, you yourself, have not been able to provide an alternative to the Creator (as from the above quoted post) - but admit that: You do not know.

So, we will indeed continue to repeat the belief in ONE CREATOR - UNTIL, someone can actually provide us with some substance to his debate.

Correct. I don't know. You don't know either. The difference is that I am willing to admit I don't know and I don't feel it necessary to adopt a God of the Gaps just to say I know what I don't.

I have always been under the impression that all atheists accept the big bang as their starting point.

So, if you find it 'an unlikely' possibility - I wonder what you presume to be the origins of your existence.

If your answer is 'I dont know', then perhaps do yourself a favour, and start searching for these answers.

We are. We call that search Science. And we know the search is imperfect and that we may never have the complete or perfect answer. We may never have a good answer at all. But we also know that if we started making answers up and say "god-did-it" and stopped looking beyond that, in some sort of dark age mentality, then we'd not get anywhere at all.

And no, not knowing for sure how the universe started, if it started at all, doesn't really keep me up at night, nor affect my day to day life. And no, I don't worry about going to some imaginary hell you may have dreamed up for me, any more than I fear Cerberus of Hades

 

[Pygoscelis]

Theres no harm in finding some humour in irrational arguments. This is not a sign of disrespect - but an indication that we are now on post #~80, and still they continue to evade the questions that are critical for the basis of the non-existence of God. And then, go further to state that the 'case is closed'.

Perhaps, it may be best to re-evaluate your own stance with regards to this debate. As people of 'Laa illaha illala' - we should hold firmly to this, and not get side-tracked by theories that go against the foundations of our imaan.


A little more humour in this short clip illustrating the absurdity of the 'infinite regress' model:

The true irony is that introducing a God does not in any way solve the infinite regress problem he speaks of. Infinity is not an easy concept to wrap your mind around, so I can see why it would be tempting to magic it away with an imagined God. But appealing to a God, even one with magic powers, doesn't fix that, especially not when you affix said God with having been around since infinity or having infinite power, etc. This complaint about infinity is really no different than the tired old "Can god make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it" line. Infinity seems nonsensical when first thinking of it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Thank you for the reply. But what if there is no rational explanation to be found? How does an atheist come about the matter?.

Most will simply admit they don't know how it happened.

 

[~Zaria~]

Where are you getting this from? I didn't tell anybody to base their life on anything. I am not the one that tries to tell people to live their life according to some religious code to get some celestial reward or avoid some punishment.

So, if you are not personally desirous of us following the views held by atheists...... you just chose to mock those who follow a way of life, that has more purpose and direction for its followres and for whom the followers find more surety.......just for no reason?

No, that is not the only alternative. The universe may have always been, may be cyclical, may be a spin off from a mltiverse, etc. You have been told this multiple times in this very thread by multiple posters and you have ignored it because it does not suit your pre-made argument.

Perhaps its because I cannot understand how one can remain on premises that are so illogical.
Have you watched the 2min vid that I posted above? If not, please do.

Can you not understand why the 'infinite regression' model makes absolutely no sense?

Even if the universe is a 'spin off from a multiverse' (as you imagine)......where did this multiverse come from?
Another multi-verse?
And where did this come from?
Another......? etc etc etc.....
Can you not understand, that for Everything in life - there has to be a starting point?

Is there Anything on earth that arises without a starting point? Name me one.

Correct. I don't know. You don't know either. The difference is that I am willing to admit I don't know and I don't feel it necessary to adopt a God of the Gaps just to say I know what I don't.

The difference is, that it doesnt make a difference for believers to know whether or not, we began with the Big bang.
We already have a Creator - who is our Source.

vs. the atheist - who doesnt know his source, and doesnt really understand the basis of his own existence.
And is quite content this way!

SubhanAllah!

We are. We call that search Science. And we know the search is imperfect and that we may never have the complete or perfect answer. We may never have a good answer at all. But we also know that if we make some answer up and say "god-did-it" and stop looking beyond that, then we'd still be living in caves.

And no, not knowing for sure how the universe started, if it started at all, doesn't really keep me up at night, nor affect my day to day life. And no, I don't worry about going to some imaginary hell you may have dreamed up for me, any more than I fear Cerberus of Hades

What you refer to as imaginery is indeed very real.

Just because you cant see the air around you doesnt mean you stop breathing.......and believing that it is there.

In the same manner, just because you cant see God/ Heaven and Hell, does not mean you stop believing.


Regards

 

[~Zaria~]

The true irony is that introducing a God does not in any way solve the infinite regress problem he speaks of. Infinity is not an easy concept to wrap your mind around, so I can see why it would be tempting to magic it away with an imagined God. But appealing to a God, even one with magic powers, doesn't fix that, especially not when you affix said God with having been around since infinity or having infinite power, etc. This complaint about infinity is really no different than the tired old "Can god make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it" line. Infinity seems nonsensical when first thinking of it.

I have just seen your reply.

How does God 'not fix the infinite regress problem'?

He is the Source of All.


"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally besought of all!
He begetteth not, nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him"

(Quraan 112, 1-4)

 

[Ali_008]

The "Can God create a rock which He can't lift Himself" argument has an answer in Islam. The question arises out of the assumption that Allah can do anything and everything. Many Christians struggle in answering this question because of the same reason. According to Islam, Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta'ala) cannot do anything and everything, because if that was possible it will mean that God can lie, cheat, be unjust and other negative traits as well.

Another theory put forward in response to the argument is that Allah does not have dimensions. The Qur'an says:

And there is none like unto Him.
Surah # 112: Surah Ikhlas - Verse 4

Thus, a rock has dimensions of weight, height, width, and others whereas Allah is unlike anything. If Allah has dimensions then it makes Him similar to creations with dimensions which conflicts with what Qur'an says, i.e., there is nothing like Allah.

 

[~Zaria~]

How does one look upon this amazingly beautiful earth and imagine that it has all arisen by chance, by co-incidence?

Please watch this video, and ask yourself 'How'?

You will agree that the very chair that you are sitting on - has a creator.
That the laptop that you are currently using - has a creator.
That EVERYTHING that is produced around you - has a creator.

BUT, you deny that on a greater scheme of things - the entire world, its people and creatures, the universe......came into being by itself, and miraculously placed itself together - without the need of a Creator?

How do you continue to lay claim to a Pseudo-science (and yes, for all intents and purposes, this is what it is) whose very premise is so flawed?

A pseudo-science that postulates that an unnamed force - arising from who-knows-where - caused a 'Big Bang', and then started a process of evolution.
All based on forgeries, half-truths and manipulation of data.

The truth will always prevail!

That there is only One God - who is the Creator of the whole universe.

You do not need to physically 'see' Him to believe in His existence.

In the same manner that you have not seen your great-great-great-great-great grand mother......but you do believe that she existed. Why? Because, even though you have not seen her, it makes sense to you that she had to exist for you to be present today.
As well as the fact that your parents/ grand-parents may have made mention of her.....so you believe them.

Do you take your parents word as true, that they are indeed your parents?
You were not present at your conception.
So why do you believe them?
Because you believe your parents to be honest and truthful in the matter.

You have to have FAITH to believe this.

In the same way,

Your Creator exists.
And He has sent down messengers to tell you of Him.
He has sent down books to teach you how to live (the manual that comes with every product).

So, how then do you deny His existence?

 

[May Ayob]

If atheists don't believe in God or a hereafter then what is their concept of justice? Also, I understood and correct me if I'm wrong, is that atheists don't necessarily have a problem with God's existance but with the confusion and suffering of the world, meaning that God is to be blamed for them because He 'intended' for them to happen. So if the world was a gracefull and pleasant place then an atheist wouldn't have an argument against God's existance, or is there something I'm missing here?. And also if there really was a God (from an atheists point of view), why doesn't He firmly seal faith in Him in our hearts and clears up the confusion all together, I don't know I grasped the feeling that atheists oppose to believe in God because ...they blame him for hjmanity's suffering? so instead of Hitler or Gh

 

[May Ayob]

Again I apologize profusely for the miscontinuation of my posts theres a technical problem or something. Anyway, back to what I was writing. So instead of Hitler of Genghis Khan being held responsible for their crimes God should be questioned instead? In Islam there is a difference of God's awareness of the things that are happening and Him allowing it to happen,He can intervene ofcourse but because of a greater wisdom only He knows of He permitted it to happen which does not make Him the one who actaully did it, it's like questioning the existance of a mother of a child because of his/her bad bahvior and dissmissing it as "if that child really had a mother he wouldn't have acted so badly", well certainly the child does have a mother, otherwise what would he be doing being alive on earth?. Or are there other reasons why atheists refuse to believe in God or gods in general?.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I have just seen your reply.

How does God 'not fix the infinite regress problem'?

He is the Source of All.

Because you are only introducing another infinity (more than one more if you want to get specific to all powerful Gods instead of just a vague first cause) to replace the one you want to get rid of. You create a bigger puzzle than you solve.

 

[Pygoscelis]

How does one look upon this amazingly beautiful earth and imagine that it has all arisen by chance, by co-incidence?

I'm not aware of anybody who does that. Those who support the theory of evolution don't do that, and if you think they do then you don't understand their theory.

As for the creator making all this beautiful stuff. If you want to go there, then you've got to take a close look at all the nasty and incompetent "designs", especially in biology. This isn't a thread about evolution, nor do I push for evolution so I'll leave that for anybody else here who wants to start that thread up again.

Your Creator exists.
And He has sent down messengers to tell you of Him.
He has sent down books to teach you how to live (the manual that comes with every product).

Already asked and answered. Your so-called messengers and books are amongst hundreds of others, which you and I both can see are probably made by men, which reflect the cultures that created them. I see no reason to put any more credence into your claim than into those which were made for Zeus, Thor, Osiris, or the hundreds of other Gods that now fill the pages of abandoned mythologies.

 

[Abz2000]

I am not telling people to live their life according to some religious code to get some celestial reward or avoid some punishment.

HOWEVER - you don't submit to a code made up by men lesser than yourself? you don't obey it's rules and "laws" , and meticulously ensure you don't fall foul of those people?
you ensure don't ensure your family and close ones don't fall foul of them and avoid "some punishment"?

anyways - I think this debate is a diversion from all the unexplainable miracles that stare us in the face, i may not be perfect but i'll acknowledge the facts for what they are, and i've seen enough to know for certainty that it is the truth.

YUSUFALI: But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a Penalty terrible.
PICKTHAL: And those who argue concerning Allah after He hath been acknowledged, their argument hath no weight with their Lord, and wrath is upon them and theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who dispute about Allah after that obedience has been rendered to Him, their plea is null with their Lord, and upon them is wrath, and for them is severe punishment.
Quran 42.016

everybody knows

 

[Pygoscelis]

The "Can God create a rock which He can't lift Himself" argument has an answer in Islam. The question arises out of the assumption that Allah can do anything and everything. Many Christians struggle in answering this question because of the same reason. According to Islam, Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Ta'ala) cannot do anything and everything, because if that was possible it will mean that God can lie, cheat, be unjust and other negative traits as well.

Another theory put forward in response to the argument is that Allah does not have dimensions. The Qur'an says:

And there is none like unto Him.
Surah # 112: Surah Ikhlas - Verse 4

Thus, a rock has dimensions of weight, height, width, and others whereas Allah is unlike anything. If Allah has dimensions then it makes Him similar to creations with dimensions which conflicts with what Qur'an says, i.e., there is nothing like Allah.

That didn't actually answer the question. Can he or can he not create a rock he can't lift?

I don't actually stand by the "Can god build a rock big enough that even he can't lift it question" by the way. I was just using it as another example of infinity looking nonsensical. I don't think inifinity can actually be so easily dismissed just because it is hard to conceive of. I have seen some pretty interesting discussions on infinity and it left my head spinning.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If atheists don't believe in God or a hereafter then what is their concept of justice?

That depends on the atheist. They won't all agree on every aspect of it. Most will work with basic empathy along with cultural influence, same as the religious people. Note that religious people tend to select what dogma to follow based on empathy and cultural influence as well. What troubles some of us atheists is that some (not all) of the religious also seem to blindly follow some of the dogma based on obedience, and seemingly without regard to their own moral compass. When obedience trumps morality, that's a great recipe for atrocity. As one prominent atheist writer put it "Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion". It actually isn't just religion that will do it of course. Any blind obedience to authority, power, or ideology will.

Also, I understood and correct me if I'm wrong, is that atheists don't necessarily have a problem with God's existance but with the confusion and suffering of the world, meaning that God is to be blamed for them because He 'intended' for them to happen.

No. Atheists don't "have a problem with God's existence" at all, because in our view, Gods don't exist. I have no more problem with God's existence than you have with Robin Hood's existence, or any other fictional character's existence. We don't think God exists, so we are not troubled by God. What troubles some of us is what believers believe about God and how that leads them to behave.

And also if there really was a God (from an atheists point of view), why doesn't He firmly seal faith in Him in our hearts and clears up the confusion all together

That is a good question. I would imagine an all powerful God, if one existed, could do that. So why would he not? Only thing I can think of is that he'd have to intend some confusion. An all powerful God would not be limited by written word or middle man messengers. He could just make you know what he wants you to. So either he doesn't exist (atheist position), or he intends the confusion, conflict, and suffering that results from the confusion resulting from all the competing claims by humans about who he is and what he wants.

I don't know I grasped the feeling that atheists oppose to believe in God because ...they blame him for hjmanity's suffering?

God would only be responsible if he existed, so no, atheists don't blame God for anything. God being to blame is just a logical conclusion if we assume for the sake of argument that an all powerful God does exist.

So instead of Hitler of Genghis Khan being held responsible for their crimes God should be questioned instead? In Islam there is a difference of God's awareness of the things that are happening and Him allowing it to happen,He can intervene ofcourse but because of a greater wisdom only He knows of He permitted it to happen which does not make Him the one who actaully did it, it's like questioning the existance of a mother of a child because of his/her bad bahvior and dissmissing it as "if that child really had a mother he wouldn't have acted so badly", well certainly the child does have a mother, otherwise what would he be doing being alive on earth?. [/QUOTE]

Sure, you can try to explain away suffering caused by the evil behaviour of humans, by pointing to free will. There are problems with that, but it does make some sense. But how do you explain the suffering not caused by humans at all, such as natural disasters, disease, etc? You can say, as some here have, that God has a higher purpose we can't see, or that God gave them life so has the right to take it away, or whatever, but you can't really say God isn't responsible if he set everything up and is all powerful.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think this debate is a diversion from all the unexplainable miracles that stare us in the face, i may not be perfect but i'll acknowledge the facts for what they are, and i've seen enough to know for certainty that it is the truth.

You see unexplainable phenomenon and call them miracles by God (presumably your particular God). I see unexplained phenomenon and call them unexplained phenomenon.

 

[May Ayob]

@Pygoscelis- Thanks for replying.
What I meant by the concept of justice is not concerned with atheists indivual beliefs or opinions but I meant for all the atrocities and all the uncountable injustice that has happened and is still happening in the world,how does an atheist rest assure that someday the tyrant will get theirs? assuming they don't really care,no? since in an atheist's point of view there is no higher supreme controlling entity thus no one to bring about justice and the resort to human law is just as bad as the atorcities commited themselves since humans are fallible impartial and biased in many ways.Or because people are dying and being born everyday human soul is bound to be unvaluable since theres always replacement?. Also from observation of human behavior whenever people are faced with a crisis they always turn to God for help when in despair isn't that a good enough reason to believe there must be a powerfull being-God almighty.



Why should God be questioned for what the wrong doing of humanbeings when someone decides to take a gun and shoot at someone ,it is their abd only their responsiblity, he/she will be arrested for the offence and noone will investigate with the store from which he/she bought the gun.If my brother,for example, attacked me or started beating me I would hold him responsible for his action and not my parents because they brought him into this world.Besides suffering ,confusion are exclusively human experiences that are not continously existant,have you never considered that maybe confusion is another form of emotiobs bottled up inside that maybe very delusional?.


I wont pretend to know why or what exactly brings about natural disaster or wether or not they are necessary or not-probably because you heard the same answer repeatedly and obviously werent satisgied but all I can say this is where faith and trust in God are most positioned infact most believers experience more strength and conviction in their faith in times of crisis and sufferring that at times of 'stability'.

Peace be upon you.

 

[~Zaria~]

@ Pygoscelis,

I have to admit - you truly are a unique 'atheist' : D

You dont believe in a 'Big Bang' preceding your existence.

You dont hold to the theory of evolution (so, what is your current alternative theory to this?)

And you do not believe that creation has come about by a process of 'chance' - you say that you are not aware of 'anyone' who does this.
[I can assure you, that there are many atheists who when asked about the orderly design of the universe, will say either: 'I dont know' or......that it just 'happened' this way (i.e. as a matter of randomness).]


And, as expected - you have convenietly evaded the questions and analogies posed to you in the previous post.

I call it: 'The evade and proceed' strategy : D
Questions remain unanswered (generally, because there are no logical alternatives that can be provided), whilst moving along merrily.

Because you are only introducing another infinity (more than one more if you want to get specific to all powerful Gods instead of just a vague first cause) to replace the one you want to get rid of. You create a bigger puzzle than you solve.

How are we introducing 'another' infinity?
The ONLY thing that is infinite (as described by God Himself) - is God.
The universe itself is not infinite.
How can it possibly be?
Even many astrophysicists believe that our own solar system will cease to exist one day! (#shaking my head in utter despair#)

As you know, we only believe in ONE Creator. So, theres no need to mention the possibility of 'powerful Gods'.

Already asked and answered. Your so-called messengers and books are amongst hundreds of others, which you and I both can see are probably made by men, which reflect the cultures that created them. I see no reason to put any more credence into your claim than into those which were made for Zeus, Thor, Osiris, or the hundreds of other Gods that now fill the pages of abandoned mythologies.

The actual belief system that one eventually choses - be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Greek mythology, etc - is another discussion- i.e.how does one actually reach the point of realising truth from falsehood.

The point being currently made is - Acknowledging that there IS indeed a Creator for everything.

As I have mentioned, you will agree that there is a creator for everything else that is produced in this world. But for some undefinable reason - you continue to deny the Creator of the entire universe itself.

Logical discussion is obviously very difficult with an atheist :'D



With regards to the rest of your comments:

As you know, Islam teaches us that we will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement, and will answer for all of our actions in this world.
For every good that is done, we will be rewarded.
For every bad that is done, we will be held responsible.
The concept of punishment for our deeds cannot be so hard to conceive.

Why?

Because, we know that punishment is a strong deterrent for committing crimes.
Even an atheist will see the need for law enforcement by way of fines, penalties and jail sentences - here on earth.

Yet, we see the 'priests' of atheism deny these very concepts when they are mentioned in relation to moral issues, and on a greater scale.