Answering Christianty

[*Hana*]

Can I ask any one of you why you were Christians? First of all I do not expect people to think exactly the way I do. And I do not believe in any organised religion as such. but a relationship with God. as most Christians may believe. I do not believe God is weak enough to get his word distorted by men. And idolatory is has a whole different meaning.

to be continued...........

Peace John:

I was a Christian because that's what my family was and it's what I was taught. I wasn't taught nor was I encouraged to learn about other faiths.

Peace,
Hana

 

[wilberhum]

My point is that the people who run 'Answering Christianity' may very well hate the Christian faith. They may even hate Christians.
But they should not hate Jesus! Being Muslims, how can they?? oh:

You surly aren't under the delusion that all Muslims are good Muslims.

For some, hate is more important than there religion.

We see it here every day.

 

[*Hana*]

I would like to return to this point John is making.

The website he has posted a link to seems to compare Muhammed's bahaviour with Jesus' - thereby indeed seeming to demonise Jesus as a man who did not care for his fellow man, did not respect Gentiles, promoted the killing of children ... oh:

Surely this is not how Islam sees Jesus??! :-[
I always thought he was seen as a highly respected and revered prophet in Islam.
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
I find it quite upsetting ...

Peace

Peace Glo:

The site is not trying to portray Jesus, pbuh, in this light. It is trying to show that it is the bible and Christians that show him in that light because those are verses taken from the bible NOT the Qur'an.

I'm assuming on the other site it said Muslims do not accept or revere Jesus, and this site was trying to prove it was the opposite by posting verses from the bible.

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with the methods used and calling it a "comparison" was very poorly done. But, they were trying to turn the tables on the false accusations of the other site.

Hope that clears things up.

Peace,
Hana

 

[john316]

Peace John:

I was a Christian because that's what my family was and it's what I was taught. I wasn't taught nor was I encouraged to learn about other faiths.

Peace,
Hana

I'm sorry to say Hana. but I have to say that Christianity is about what your parents teach. or what other teachers will interpret for you. I believe my personal relationship with God is the same as what God had with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, to name a few and of course Jesus. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. It doesnt matter which denomination you are or what you did in the name of Christianity Jesus said if you are not born again you will not inherit the kingdom of God. I believe all these denominations are just ideolagies as I can think of it right now. And I dont consider myself belonging to any denomination or whatsoever.

 

[*Hana*]

I'm sorry to say Hana. but I have to say that Christianity is about what your parents teach. or what other teachers will interpret for you. I believe my personal relationship with God is the same as what God had with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, to name a few and of course Jesus. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. It doesnt matter which denomination you are or what you did in the name of Christianity Jesus said if you are not born again you will not inherit the kingdom of God. I believe all these denominations are just ideolagies as I can think of it right now. And I dont consider myself belonging to any denomination or whatsoever.

I obviously don't believe Christianity is the truth and as far as being "born again"...that's hogwash and only condemns all the people born sometime before the 1860's. The "born again Christian" was a movement that was created around that time. What a miracle that this concept wasn't discovered for over 1800 years after Jesus left. :?

Everyone starts out with the faith of their parents and it's what made me Christian. When I was able to see the truth and search for myself, I was guided to Islam. Alhamdulillah.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Woodrow]

Can I ask any one of you why you were Christians? First of all I do not expect people to think exactly the way I do. And I do not believe in any organised religion as such. but a relationship with God. as most Christians may believe. I do not believe God is weak enough to get his word distorted by men. And idolatory is has a whole different meaning.

to be continued...........

I was born Roman Catholic. Although my ancestors 400+ years before me were Muslims. I am descended from primarily Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Taters) many of whom were were forced into Christianity. The history of the Lipkas is another story, but just giving a Little Backgraound. My ancestors had become very staunch Catholics and I was born into a family that saw no other Religion as being Christian.

When I was about 18 I entered the seminary to be a priest. That was my early ambition. From the earliest I can remember, I was always driven with a desire to serve God(swt). However, it only took a few theology and history classes to convince me that Catholicism was not the path. For the next decade or so I studied, learned and accepted several other denominations and got baptized in several different denominations. Yet, the closer I drew to Jesus(as) and the greater my love for him grew, the more I came to understand that the Christian concept of Jesus(as) was distracting away from the true beauty and message Jesus(as) was sent to deliver. The more in depth I read the NT the more I learned that it was not the message nor the words of Jesus(as) except in a few lines, found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I finally could only come to the conclusion that the books written after Mark, Luke Matthew and John had no part in what Christianity originally was. and that in some point the original 4 gospels were altered to support the books that came later.

At that point I became essentially an agnostic, who called himself a Buddhist. I semi practiced Zen, but I was basically an agnostic for nearly 40 years. Having lived in Islamic countries more than a few times, I was familiar with Arabic and had a vague concept of what Islam was. I had picked up an Arabic copy of the Qur'an in Morocco, somewhere between 1959-1961, I had read it many times over the next 40 or so years, but as an aide to help me understand Arabic and as a guide to Arabic literature.

When I was a little over 65 years old I was reading it again, and I was overwhelmed with a feeling of recognition, warmth and understanding. I was reborn and I firmly believe that Allaah(swt) had blessed me at that moment and opened my eyes for me to enter life as a new creation. I immediately said the Shahadah and knew that I had returned home to Islam and finally found I could love Jesus(as) for His true self and not be bound by the false image I had at one time worshiped.

 

[john316]

I obviously don't believe Christianity is the truth and as far as being "born again"...that's hogwash and only condemns all the people born sometime before the 1860's. The "born again Christian" was a movement that was created around that time. What a miracle that this concept wasn't discovered for over 1800 years after Jesus left. :?

Everyone starts out with the faith of their parents and it's what made me Christian. When I was able to see the truth and search for myself, I was guided to Islam. Alhamdulillah.

Peace,
Hana

it is not a movement though some may claim. the difference is only in language. since the english versions of scripture were'nt available until 1100s term may have been recognised in other languages. but if you look into the meaning of it it actually means a regenaration. the old things have past. now I will not go to the extent of saying that all people b4 1860 were condemened for eternity. Though there is evidence of unscriptural doctines used by the early church(like orginial sin and sacrements). There may be a very few missionaries who have had a true relationship with God.

 

[*Hana*]

it is not a movement though some may claim. the difference is only in language. since the english versions of scripture were'nt available until 1100s term may have been recognised in other languages. but if you look into the meaning of it it actually means a regenaration. the old things have past. now I will not go to the extent of saying that all people b4 1860 were condemened for eternity. Though there is evidence of unscriptural doctines used by the early church(like orginial sin and sacrements). There may be a very few missionaries who have had a true relationship with God.

Prior to it's "creation" in 1860 no one followed this concept. You do realize 1860 was not so long ago and I'm 100% certain at least 1 Christian Scholar or even 1 of the Apostles would have mentioned it in 1800 + years. So, yes, it is a movement that began around the 1860's and it has condemned millions of Christians, including those that were taught directly by Jesus, to Hell. It's a ridiculous concept invented by someone looking to become rich on the donations sent to him on a regular basis to "deliver this new found truth". And they do become insanely rich because all these people buy into the idea "born again" which was never taught by Jesus or His disciples, and their hard earned money is necessary to spread the message.

A born again, Benny Hinn's ministry takes in about 100 million dollars per year. His white suits cost thousands of dollars. How is this helping the born again movement? Ever wonder how much he spends on his gold jewelry? Ever wonder how many people died because they believed he alone could heal them so refused medical treatment?

It's madness. It's a movement and one that seems to cause more harm than good. So sad.

I strongly recommend you read the bible for yourself and not to accept whatever someone else tells you.

I wish you well with whatever path life takes you.

Peace,
Hana

 

[john316]

Prior to it's "creation" in 1860 no one followed this concept. You do realize 1860 was not so long ago and I'm 100% certain at least 1 Christian Scholar or even 1 of the Apostles would have mentioned it in 1800 + years. So, yes, it is a movement that began around the 1860's and it has condemned millions of Christians, including those that were taught directly by Jesus, to Hell. It's a ridiculous concept invented by someone looking to become rich on the donations sent to him on a regular basis to "deliver this new found truth". And they do become insanely rich because all these people buy into the idea "born again" which was never taught by Jesus or His disciples, and their hard earned money is necessary to spread the message.

A born again, Benny Hinn's ministry takes in about 100 million dollars per year. His white suits cost thousands of dollars. How is this helping the born again movement? Ever wonder how much he spends on his gold jewelry? Ever wonder how many people died because they believed he alone could heal them so refused medical treatment?

It's madness. It's a movement and one that seems to cause more harm than good. So sad.

I strongly recommend you read the bible for yourself and not to accept whatever someone else tells you.

I wish you well with whatever path life takes you.

Peace,
Hana

I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.

 

[*Hana*]

I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.

Actually, I didn't say at all this was Christianity. I said it was BORN AGAINS...a sect of Christianity, and Benny Hinn's ministry. Show me where I said THIS was Christianity?????? You need to read more carefully before you accuse me. If you want to continue discussions you need to make sure you understand what was posted before running off at the fingers.

Whether you agree with me to a great extent doesn't effect me. The FACTS speak for themselves. Look up Benny Hinn and tell me what that man has done for Christianity? What has he done for God? But, hey, if that's what you call Christianity...all the power to ya!

And as far as respect goes, I had aunts that were nuns, friends that were priests, all my friends are Christians, (NONE born agains!!) and we have nothing but respect for each other, so please don't try to insinuate I don't respect. What I don't respect are thieves calling themselves preachers and healers stealing from people to increase their own, private fortunes like Benny Hill, and the Bakers in the past, as well as the many others that prey on people. IMHO: It's a cowardly and despicable act.

Peace,
Hana

Hana

 

[Woodrow]

I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.

I believe you would be very interested in the Syriac Bible. Although I would prefer to get you interested in the Qur'an. But to be honest, although I do not agree with it I Believe the Syriac Bible to be the closest to what the Bible was. The first part of the OT is in Hebrew and than it changes to Chaldean Aramaic and The NT is in Syriac Aramaic. It does have word for word English translations in it. From what I have seen it is a reasonably accurate translation. But, it is impossible to get an accurate translation of any Semitic language.

 

[glo]

this is how the bible describes Jesus not the Quran or the hadiths.. the folks of the site can only work with what is available from biblical literature..

Peace Glo:

The site is not trying to portray Jesus, pbuh, in this light. It is trying to show that it is the bible and Christians that show him in that light because those are verses taken from the bible NOT the Qur'an.

If the site was merely doing, what you two suggest, namely to discredit how the Bible presents Jesus, I would still disagree, but at least I could understand it from an Islamic perspective.

To suggest that Jesus promoted the killing of children, the killing of apostates and slavery is ridiculous, but I will not go into refuting the Bible verses quoted in the article - that was not my reason for posting in this thread.

I disagree that the article merely criticises and questions the Bible.
It criticises Jesus himself ... and that's what I find so upsetting.
Titles like 'Jesus and Muhammad Compared', 'How Jesus and Muhammad treated Children' and 'The Popularity of Jesus and Muhammad' clearly show that the aim is to compare Jesus and Muhammed, and further reading shows that Jesus' behaviour, teaching and example is discredited in order to make Muhammed look like the 'superior one' ...

My question is and remains:
How can a Muslim site present one of their revered and honoured prophets in such a way?? And how do you as Muslims feel when you see Isa (PBUH) protrayed in such a way?
(I don't believe anybody has answered this question yet. My apologies if I have missed somebody's reply. )

and agreed out of context-- isn't that exactly what they do with Quran and hadith? I am grateful someone answers back because frankly I am so sick of the church's antics for centuries and the people who commission such sites, it is only befitting they get a taste of their medicine.. and pls glo don't quote me some biblical passage about 'love thy neighbor' frankly the fact that such sites exist is a testament to the hypocrisy preached by christians, who are indeed anything but loving.. it isn't enough to have it written down.. perhaps they should practice what they preach?
peace

Ambrosia, sister, like I said I know and understand very little about refutation sites. They are not places I visit, nor indeed wish to visit in the future.
I could quote many Bible verses to you about Jesus teaching and modelling love for children, for the needy, for all our fellow human beings; about Jesus teaching and modelling love and compassion and humility and servitude ... but since you are asking me not to, I won't ...

What I do detect is your hurt and your anger against Christians who you perceive to be hypocritical, and those who you perceive to be attacking your own faith.
(On a side note, with regards to wanting to refute false religious teachings, I have always had the impression that that was highly esteemed in Islam. You yourself are one of the greatest refuters in this forum ... can you not understand the desire of others to do the same with their faith?? Or have you become a defender of you faith, because you perceive it to be attacked by others?)

Personally, I think the only way to discuss religion is to do so peacefully, with every participant having a desire to share their own beliefs, but also to listen and respect the beliefs of others.
But I cannot change people' heart - only God can.
I can speak out against hypocrits and hatemongers - and I try to where I can.

I extend a hand in friendship to you, Ambrosia, and I pray that as well as strengthening your love for God and your desire to serve him, God will give you his peace which surpasses all understanding.

Peace

 

[*Hana*]

If the site was merely doing, what you two suggest, namely to discredit how the Bible presents Jesus, I would still disagree, but at least I could understand it from an Islamic perspective.

To suggest that Jesus promoted the killing of children, the killing of apostates and slavery is ridiculous, but I will not go into refuting the Bible verses quoted in the article - that was not my reason for posting in this thread.

This site answers to suggestions from the other site. My guess is that the other site misquoted some text from the Qur'an or Hadith placing Muhammed, pbuh, in a bad light and/or suggested we dismiss Jesus, pbuh and do not accept him at all.

It is simply reversing what was done on the other site.

I disagree that the article merely criticises and questions the Bible.
It criticises Jesus himself ... and that's what I find so upsetting.
Titles like 'Jesus and Muhammad Compared', 'How Jesus and Muhammad treated Children' and 'The Popularity of Jesus and Muhammad' clearly show that the aim is to compare Jesus and Muhammed, and further reading shows that Jesus' behaviour, teaching and example is discredited in order to make Muhammed look like the 'superior one' ...

The article shows how the BIBLE and therefore CHRISTIANS criticize Jesus, pbuh. It's trying to show that it is the Christian that does not respect Jesus, not the Muslim. It's not trying to say one is greater than the other. It probably would have been more effective had the writer taken the time to quote from the Qur'an to show how much Muslims love and revere Jesus, pbuh, but, their focus is to refute everything said in the other site without necessarily thinking it completely through.

My question is and remains:
How can a Muslim site present one of their revered and honoured prophets in such a way?? And how do you as Muslims feel when you see Isa (PBUH) protrayed in such a way?
(I don't believe anybody has answered this question yet. My apologies if I have missed somebody's reply. )

Again, as above, it is not portraying Jesus, pbuh, in this light. As a Muslim, I know the truth about Jesus, pbuh, and how much we love and respect Him, so seeing quotes from the Bible that suggest differently, doesn't effect me whatsoever. It only surprises me that Christians are not upset by some of these quotes that don't portray him properly. (I know some verses were taken out of context.)

Our Holy Book would never say anything negative about Jesus, pbuh. It bothers me when a non-Muslim says something derogatory about Him, but other than that, biblical verses don't bother me in the least. So, while I disagree with their methods, the quotes don't bother me.

Ambrosia, sister, like I said I know and understand very little about refutation sites. They are not places I visit, nor indeed wish to visit in the future.
I could quote many Bible verses to you about Jesus teaching and modelling love for children, for the needy, for all our fellow human beings; about Jesus teaching and modelling love and compassion and humility and servitude ... but since you are asking me not to, I won't ...

Glo, I think we all know that Jesus, pbuh, was a mighty Prophet of God, (in your case more than a Prophet), but still great. We know He didn't harm children or His mother, etc. Just please understand this article is strictly for refuting another site. And, you are right to stay away from those types of sites. They are more concerned with being right than being truthful. I don't like seeing text twisted to prove a point by Christians or Muslims and both these sites do exactly that in many cases.

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[john316]

thought you'd get a kick out of your fellow christian's perspective..

cheers

I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.
And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.

'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.

 

[جوري]

I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.

I am not aware that he is making an argument.. he wrote of what lead him to Islam.. 20,000 americans find their way to Islam every year, he isn't alone!

And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.

That doesn't make sense to most sane people.. from no man's sin will another be punished, nor of good deeds will another be rewarded, each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds.. in this life, those who work hard, surpass, stand out and earn their place, and it is no different in the here after. I am afraid many of you use this as a carte blanche to commit all sorts of sins so that the (sin eater) will absolve you... that is absured to most reflective people!

'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).

see above reply!

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.

Debunked? I don't see how you could, least of which using an unreliable source as the bible of which no two denominations follow the same guidelines... unfortunately, it is flawed at the source..

I find you a sincere person, and I wish you well.. but there is no going back to darkness after seeing the light.. for what it is worth not only did I dedicate a good chunk of my life studying theology, I have also attended catholic school. I believe most people are what they are by choice. You simply can't show me better than what I currently know!


Bless your envoy and your servant Jesus son of Mary and peace upon him on the day of birth and on the day of death and on the day he is raised up again. It is a word of truth in which they doubt. It is not for God to take a son. Glory be to him when he decrees a thing he only says be and it is. Sura 19--holy Quran


if I were you, I'd spend this time with the Jews.. this is what they think of Jesus and Mary

...'R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."'


peace!

 

[*Hana*]

I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.
And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.

'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.

First...what did you debunk?? All you did was quote verses. You never presented a discussion or anything that would make one assume you even understood what you posted. :muddlehea

Second...why would you even think you would be expected to quote from the Qur'an when you don't believe anything in it? :-\

Anyway, just posting verses from text is not a discussion so you should spend more time learning about your own faith so you can speak for yourself rather than just posting.

Take care and peace to you,
Hana

 

[thirdwatch512]

John316, you say that Zakir Naik and them all take things totally out of context and make things up.. And I totally agree.

But you Christians do too! I mean look at how different Orthodoxy/Catholic is from Protestant! They almost seem like two different religions!

Obviously, people interpret things differently. Many times we laugh at them, but just let it be!

 

[john316]

I am not aware that he is making an argument.. he wrote of what lead him to Islam.. 20,000 americans find their way to Islam every year, he isn't alone!


That doesn't make sense to most sane people.. from no man's sin will another be punished, nor of good deeds will another be rewarded, each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds.. in this life, those who work hard, surpass, stand out and earn their place, and it is no different in the here after. I am afraid many of you use this as a carte blanche to commit all sorts of sins so that the (sin eater) will absolve you... that is absured to most reflective people!




peace!

I'm sorry to say yet again but in this paragraph you seem to have no clue what you are talking about. So which is why I have this long post which is comprehensive enough to eliminate some misconceptions of our faith in Christ.
And at the end of it I would like to supplement you with a youtube video about a missionary named Paul Washer who preached at a conference in the United States. Please got thru this and then you will have an idea of what I believe or what genuine faith in Christ really means.

I AS A CHRISTIAN ATTEST THAT I AM SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. AND FAITH IS PROCEEDED OR FOLLOWED BY REPENTANCE-A COMPLETE TURNING AWAY FROM SIN AND TURNING TO A HOLY GOD.


Grace: What does it mean?

What did the bible authors and God mean when they wrote the Greek word that we translate as “Grace”? First, let’s look at what most people think of when they read the English word "grace". Then I'll demonstrate with scripture and biblical research what the Bible authors actually meant.

Which Gospel of Grace?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:8-10, KJV).
Many read this scripture with the idea that grace is the opposite of works. That is not what it says. However, from this interpretation, they reason as follows:

“Grace makes it ok to sin as much as you want-- you will still go to heaven because you are saved by grace and faith, NOT works.”

This interpretation was around during the writing of the New Testament. Roughly 20% of the New Testament is devoted to correcting or refuting this false teaching in various ways. So the best way to understand God’s grace is to read the New Testament, and the rest of the Bible for that matter. But, in case you are still working on that and need some quick answers, this presents a summary of true biblical grace. The following scripture identifies the above interpretation:

Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about[ 4 Or men who were marked out for condemnation] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
(Whole Chapter: Jude 1 In context: Jude 1:3-5)

These grace-changers teach as if there is no causal relationship between grace and works, or behavior. I agree that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, not by our own works. However, it is by the same grace that saves in Eph. 2:8, that Jesus created us unto good works in verse 10. This grace brings salvation this way: It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (Titus 2:11,12 NIV).

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (Titus 2:11,12 NIV).

Receiving a false grace that does not manifest itself behaviorally in obedience to God’s commands will not bring salvation. That is why this “license for immorality” teaching of grace is another Gospel. Paul verifies Jude’s statement above, that those who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality are condemned:

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
(Whole Chapter: Galatians 1 In context: Galatians 1:7-9)




We are saved by grace, but it is possible for a Christian under grace to lose his inheritance of the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21), be disowned by Christ (Mt. 10:33), have his share in New Jerusalem taken away (Rev. 22:19), and die spiritually if he chooses to live according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13) as was exemplified by the Prodigal who became spiritually dead and lost (Lk. 15:24,32).

Also, the same one who gave us the truth about grace as cited in Eph. 2:8,9 and Rom. 11:6 also reported that Christians could fall from grace to the point where Christ will be of no value at all to them (Gal.5:2-4). All of this corporately is the true grace of God, according to Paul. To declare something different from this is to side with the counterfeit grace message, which is just as much a license for immorality in our day as it was in Jude's.

So then, this far we know this much about God’s Grace:
1. it is received by faith
2. it manifests behaviorally in obedience to God’s word.
3. it must be continued in until death, in order for it to reap eternal life.
4. it is not a license for immorality.

Jewish Roots
What did the bible authors and God mean when they wrote the Greek word that we translate as “Grace”? The Greek NT word for grace is Charos. Written in Greek by the Jewish NT writers, the word refers back to its usage in the Septuagint – the Greek Old Testament that Paul and the other bible authors probably used, or at least had access to. If they were reading the OT in Hebrew, the word for Grace would be “chesed” instead of the Greek “charos”. But these words were used interchangeably in the Septuagint--as if the way to express the Hebrew word “chesed” in Greek was “charos”.

What then does “chesed” mean in the Hebrew mindset?

“An extension of contract granted for the purposes of enabling the breeching party to return to covenant loyalty.”

Grace works!

This definition explains otherwise confusing usages of the word in the NT. Here we see that Grace “worked” in and through Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 15 In context: 1 Corinthians 15:9-11)

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Corinthians 9 In context: 2 Corinthians 9:7-9)


These and many other passages of scripture are confusing to the Gentile mind because they state that grace works. Gentiles usually like to think of grace and works as opposites. This type of thinking did not exist in the biblical Jewish mind. Indeed, true saving grace does work. But not without the recipient’s permission and effort:

Philippians 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Notice that both God and the recipient are working in this passage above. This passage is no longer confusing if you take the Bible author’s view of “grace”. Neither are these passages below, where recipients of grace strain toward the prize of eternal life.

Philippians 3
Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


1 Timothy 4
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 Peter 5
12With the help of Silas,[2] whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.

Acts 13
43When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Unmerited favor?

How hard is it to “stand fast” in unmerited favor? Our word “grace” in English usually means “unmerited favor”. Certainly, God has shown us unmerited favor, but when he shows us this is important. It is only after we accept his law and repent of our transgressions of it.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)

1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (Whole Chapter: 1 John 1 In context: 1 John 1:9-11)

These have always been the terms of his blood covenant -- whether the law to be accepted and obeyed has been the law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, or Christ—the terms of granting grace for transgressions of the law have always been the same: Only after we accept his law and repent of our transgressions of it. So the meaning of grace is consistent across covenants or laws given.


Grace: empowerment to obey

To whom grace is extended and for what purpose? It is extended only to those who are willing to return to covenant loyalty according to the terms of God’s blood covenant: Laying their own life down in exchange Christ’s life, so that Christ can live through us by grace. In other words, God himself is fulfilling your end of the covenant daily through his son: His blood mediating (Hebrews 9:15), and his Spirit empowering you to obey the truth.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 14 In context: Luke 14:25-27)

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)

1 Peter 1:22-23
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (KJV)

Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace (2 Cor. 1:12, NIV).

God only empowers (through His Spirit of grace) those who are willing to accept and follow His terms of His covenant: The New Covenant written in His blood. They cannot take credit for, or boast about the works they have performed by and through God’s grace. That does not mean that God is like a demon who is going to possess them to do things that they are unwilling to do. No, they must make in effort in responding to God’s grace by faith.

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without
holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14, NIV).

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom. 2:7, NIV).

James:

Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYsClDclvf0

 

[john316]

John316, you say that Zakir Naik and them all take things totally out of context and make things up.. And I totally agree.

But you Christians do too! I mean look at how different Orthodoxy/Catholic is from Protestant! They almost seem like two different religions!

Obviously, people interpret things differently. Many times we laugh at them, but just let it be!

Catholic/Orthodox churches fall short of scriptures and their own scriptures contradict themselves. Protestantism is a reformation in which the word of God is the final authority. Othordoxy may have bishops and all that. Catholics have the pope as the authority. In Christianity we are all entilted to be ministers and witnesses of Christ. Read the whole Bible for yourself and then come to a conclusion. And I do not balong to any denomination or whatsoever. They are all ideologies as far as I am concerned. I do not believe in Once Saved always Saved as the Baptists may believe. I go to church not because i have to because I want to fellowship with God's people and seek advice on how to love God and love my neighbours and live a godly life. Most may say dont believe what others may tell you all the time and that is exactly what I am doing. I am seeking the truth for myself. As far as God is concenred, my fellowship with God will only be broken if I lie, lust, steal, covet, and things like these not by not bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or not fasting during Ramadan or not paying my Zakat. I prefer to do my good deeds in secret as Christ instructs me to do and be a living sacrfice for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And also defend my stand and my beliefs against hate sites, misconceptions. And as far as from what I believe my so called relatioship with God tells me to contend for the faith and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[thirdwatch512]

Catholic/Orthodox churches fall short of scriptures and their own scriptures contradict themselves. Protestantism is a reformation in which the word of God is the final authority. Othordoxy may have bishops and all that. Catholics have the pope as the authority. In Christianity we are all entilted to be ministers and witnesses of Christ. Read the whole Bible for yourself and then come to a conclusion. And I do not balong to any denomination or whatsoever. They are all ideologies as far as I am concerned. I do not believe in Once Saved always Saved as the Baptists may believe. I go to church not because i have to because I want to fellowship with God's people and seek advice on how to love God and love my neighbours and live a godly life. Most may say dont believe what others may tell you all the time and that is exactly what I am doing. I am seeking the truth for myself. As far as God is concenred, my fellowship with God will only be broken if I lie, lust, steal, covet, and things like these not by not bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or not fasting during Ramadan or not paying my Zakat. I prefer to do my good deeds in secret as Christ instructs me to do and be a living sacrfice for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And also defend my stand and my beliefs against hate sites, misconceptions. And as far as from what I believe my so called relatioship with God tells me to contend for the faith and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So basically 98% of Christians for the first 1500 years were in error in your view, correct?