Are some Muslims afraid of debate?

[Sarmad]

Because violence is not the answer and suicide bombing is forbidden. Education is the proper answer.

Do you think land acquisition can be accomplished through education?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Do you think land acquisition can be accomplished through education?

I think education, understanding and outreach can help woth a lot, but I don't see what land acquisition has to do with this.

 

[Sarmad]

I think education, understanding and outreach can help woth a lot, but I don't see what land acquisition has to do with this.

I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?

Actually most people don't intentionally do something if they know it is a criminal sin in their religion; Saudi Arabia convinced 250 people against terrorist ideology through simple education:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=285

Yes, if they persisted in their attempts to spread violence they should be met with force, and that is what law enforcement is for.

Do you know what 'jihad' means? See here:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=64

Regards

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I think the "terrorists" commit atrocities in the name of islam cum extra land of the kaffir, and i dont see how you can get the land of other countries other than by fighting for it ie, jihad, but then when you said that you need to educate people i think that it would never help cos a person might listen and know what youre saying is right butstill commit atrocities, and then in that circumstance would you then go and fight the terrorist themselves if the refused to accept youre education?

First your building on the assumptionthat terrorist will exist against better knowledge (that there will be still people blowing themself up once they realise it's not alowed in Islam.)
Second how do you physically fight a terrorist? Once he commits a suicide bombing there's not much of 'm left to fight. Do you think they run in packs holding a sign: "terrorist bomber, fight me of before I blow".
Thirdly there' are very strict rules to when jihad is possible, and your suggestion does not fall under it. So it would be hypocrite to fight them of on teh ground that they break the rules.

Edit: I noticed this might seem contradictory to Ansar's post. That's simply because he posted from a state's goverment's position who does has teh responsability. Whereas I thought you meant muslims spontaniously picking up arms to fight them of on their own.

 

[Sarmad]

First your building on the assumptionthat terrorist will exist against better knowledge (that there will be still people blowing themself up once they realise it's not alowed in Islam.)

After all the denouncement going on, and the war, and basic humanitarian compassion what more could you tell the terrorist?

Second how do you physically fight a terrorist? Once he commits a suicide bombing there's not much of 'm left to fight. Do you think they run in packs holding a sign: "terrorist bomber, fight me of before I blow".

surely you have to catch a terrorist to impart knowledge will this also be impossible? and not all terroroists are suicide bombers some you can fight with a gun.

Thirdly there' are very strict rules to when jihad is possible, and your suggestion does not fall under it. So it would be hypocrite to fight them of on teh ground that they break the rules.

if they are going against islamic principles then surely this is blatant murder does this not require some sort of action even law enforceent is lacking in its zeal compared to the zeal of terror.

 

[Sarmad]

Yes, if they persisted in their attempts to spread violence they should be met with force, and that is what law enforcement is for.

ok my new argument:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism? and why when the law does enforce against terrorists do muslims including scholars, tv channels and the abundance of muslim committees not support this law enforcement, I feel sorry for pakistan and think musharraf needs to do more to combat extremism but pakistani people say musharraf is a criminal for his actions against terrorists.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Lucifer,
Your comment is too general, you will need to specify. Where is there not enough law enforcement?

 

[Sarmad]

Lucifer,
Your comment is too general, you will need to specify. Where is there not enough law enforcement?

syria where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
iraq where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
afganistan where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
iran where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
pakistan where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
lybia where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
somalia where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities
"muslim country" where terrorist cells are waiting to commit atrocities

it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough

No. All you've said is that there are cells 'waiting to commit atrocities', but you haven't given any evidence. It is a bit like saying that there are rapists waiting to commit rapes in America and therefore American law enforcement agencies are incompetent for not pre-empting them. If you can't see the future, it is not easy to find out who is 'waiting' to commit a crime. Can you give an example where crimes are being commited and no steps have been taken to stop them?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

if they are going against islamic principles then surely this is blatant murder does this not require some sort of action even law enforceent is lacking in its zeal compared to the zeal of terror.

There is a punishment for murder, but with a suicide attack, that punishment is always "to late". Of course one should have to try to prevent it in advance, and the best way is with education as Ansar said.

ok my new argument:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who used islam to validate extremism?

First we need to define "extremism". If I choose not to shake hands with people from the opposite sexe because of my religion a lot of people will find that "extreme" yet there is nothing wrong with that and it lgives no reason for the goverment to "stop" me. Just because soemone is "extreme", doesn't mean he will violate his religion with an act of terrorism.

 

[Sarmad]

No. All you've said is that there are cells 'waiting to commit atrocities', but you haven't given any evidence.

let me ask you personally, what do you really think? do you really think that rapists and terrorist cells are an accurate comparison, be honest. What of all the terrorism we have seen in the last 4 years are you really going to deny that their is no network, how did such an ideology not escape the correct islamic educators? why was this all not picked up as and when it was forming their is no way this is spontaneous.

It is a bit like saying that there are rapists waiting to commit rapes in America and therefore American law enforcement agencies are incompetent for not pre-empting them.

rapists are post-defined they are not held by an ideology which gives them liberty to their sexual advances, they are driven by their raw impulse, terrorists are great planners actually yes you are right but not for rapists but for serial killers and serial rapists. Yes no-one can do much about the serial killers, but what about terrorosits why is it that in the west the people including me are more forthcoming to the authorities with intelligence? Why are people not more forthcoming in muslim countries. also about rapists how comes rape murder etc is more in control in muslim countries than distortion of islam itself? ie terrorism.

If you can't see the future, it is not easy to find out who is 'waiting' to commit a crime. Can you give an example where crimes are being commited and no steps have been taken to stop them?

yes terrorism in muslim countries, hamas is a prime example of a crime which continues and is validated by the law enforcers. In the helmand province of afganistan the law enforcers have failed to prevent the re-grouping of taliban. In syria hezbollah are allowed to fire rockets into israel. In pakistan terrorist cells are allowed to pass into kashmir, to and from afganistan etc etc and the local people plus law enforcers do nothing about it especially balochis. In iraq locals infiltrate law enforcement and give intelligence to the insurgents.

I would really like to say things are improving but deep down inside I know they aint.

 

[Sarmad]

There is a punishment for murder, but with a suicide attack, that punishment is always "to late". Of course one should have to try to prevent it in advance, and the best way is with education as Ansar said.

forget the suicide bombers, their is an army of taliban running towards a construction worker who is building a road for new afganistan, so that they can massacre him cos he's kaffir or whatever, now you happen to be in the vicinity with a rare collection of videos about the concept of jihad in islam, are you going to fight the terrorists or invite them for education?, the answer is simple you cannot educate these people you and me would both fight.

First we need to define "extremism". If I choose not to shake hands with people from the opposite sexe because of my religion a lot of people will find that "extreme" yet there is nothing wrong with that and it lgives no reason for the goverment to "stop" me. Just because soemone is "extreme", doesn't mean he will violate his religion with an act of terrorism.

[/QUOTE]


ok fine, you know without a shadow of a doubt that the individuals concerned are going to do something that is against islam so to rephrase:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who carry out anti-islamic acts?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

[/QUOTE]
ok fine, you know without a shadow of a doubt that the individuals concerned are going to do something that is against islam so to rephrase:

Why is their never enough law enforcement against the terrorists who carry out anti-islamic acts?[/QUOTE]

Becasue when teh act is commited it's usually to late for law enforcement. Unlees you give your taliban example. OK here I answer teh following: Because the country is majorly messed up as a result of America's foreign policy. First America gave birth to their regime to help them fight "the commies". Now they made peace with "the commies" and start fighting "the muslims". And you're surprised these uneducated people who lived their entire life in war commit crimes?

 

[Sarmad]

And you're surprised these uneducated people who lived their entire life in war commit crimes?

No i am not surprised that they commit crimes, I am surprised that the ummah allows them to get away with it, when did islam ever say "its ok that youve become a terrorist cos youve had a hard life"?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

let me ask you personally, what do you really think? do you really think that rapists and terrorist cells are an accurate comparison, be honest. What of all the terrorism we have seen in the last 4 years are you really going to deny that their is no network, how did such an ideology not escape the correct islamic educators? why was this all not picked up as and when it was forming their is no way this is spontaneous.

The problem is, Lucifer, you keep switiching back and forth between two different things. You initially asked about the ideology, in which case I explained that Muslim scholars are combating these incorrect beliefs and have been succesfull in many cases (eg. the 250 people in Saudi). Then you switched to why law enforcement is not preventing criminal activity, not ideology, and that was analogous to the rape situation I gave. Law encforcement in Muslim countries works to prevent people from breaking the law, but it isn't possible to see into the future to pre-empt those waiting to use violence, whether that be rape or terrorism.

Why are people not more forthcoming in muslim countries.

Why do you assume they aren't? Spotlight fallacy again.

And obviously the infrastructure in a third-world country is not the same as a developed nation, so the quality of law enforcement will not be the same, but that by no means justifies the blatantly false notion that Muslims are not trying to prevent terrorist attacks.

yes terrorism in muslim countries, hamas is a prime example of a crime which continues and is validated by the law enforcers. In the helmand province of afganistan the law enforcers have failed to prevent the re-grouping of taliban. In syria hezbollah are allowed to fire rockets into israel. In pakistan terrorist cells are allowed to pass into kashmir, to and from afganistan etc etc and the local people plus law enforcers do nothing about it especially balochis. In iraq locals infiltrate law enforcement and give intelligence to the insurgents.

Pick a country, and we'll look into the evidence of whether the law enforcement is really not doing anything to stop individuals from acts of terror.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

No i am not surprised that they commit crimes, I am surprised that the ummah allows them to get away with it, when did islam ever say "its ok that youve become a terrorist cos youve had a hard life"?

"the ummah" so you're sugegsting the neighbour country's invade afghanistan to fight terrorism, oh, they would have to to deal with the UN and stuff, which might become problematic... In fact that would be considered invading a neighbour country. You know, one goverment doesn't have jurisdiction in the other country.

 

[Sarmad]

"Law encforcement in Muslim countries works to prevent people from breaking the law, but it isn't possible to see into the future to pre-empt those waiting to use violence, whether that be rape or terrorism."

then scholars need to be registered under the state law enforcement and all religious education should from now on be passed by the legal system of such countries so that ideology is consistent, so let me put it another way why do muslim countries not have anti-hate laws and religious hatred bills, and all the many laws the west have come up with?

Why do you assume they aren't? Spotlight fallacy again.

well the countries have visible terrorist groups hamas, hexbollah, lashkar etc etc its not an assumption these people flaunt their terrorism and ideology infront of the law enforcers. Someone somewhere has not been quick with bringing these people to the surface they now have an army, this was'nt developed over night.

And obviously the infrastructure in a third-world country is not the same as a developed nation, so the quality of law enforcement will not be the same, but that by no means justifies the blatantly false notion that Muslims are not trying to prevent terrorist attacks.

is islam not equipped for 3rd world countries, surely your law system should be able to root out terrorism and ideology in all worlds.

"Pick a country, and we'll look into the evidence of whether the law enforcement is really not doing anything to stop individuals from acts of terror

palistine is a good one, its not just law enforsement its the locals themselves, you know hamas executes anyone who is found out to have told about a suicide bombing before it happens, their was a women a couple of weeks back and they got her brother to shoot her in the head i felt so sorry for her.



i think i am asking for an islamic revolution against the terrorists.

 

[Sarmad]

the ummah" so you're sugegsting the neighbour country's invade afghanistan to fight terrorism,

well how are you gonna create a caliphate youre gonna have to invade the naighbours at some point they aint gonna willingly join you.

oh, they would have to to deal with the UN and stuff, which might become problematic...

if you loved your bretheren you would do anything, your willing to die for your faith aint you so what the harm in annoying the un

In fact that would be considered invading a neighbour country. You know, one goverment doesn't have jurisdiction in the other country.

[/QUOTE]

terrorists do it its called insurgency.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

well how are you gonna create a caliphate youre gonna have to invade the naighbours at some point they aint gonna willingly join you.

I thought you were suggesting fighting of terrorism, now you're talking about forming a caliphate? Those are two totally difrent discussions.

if you loved your bretheren you would do anything, your willing to die for your faith aint you so what the harm in annoying the un

es but we are not to "run onto a sword". It's one thing to be willing and it's another to seek death. Apart from that, my objections were'nt really due to fear of death, but because you can't just go and attack anyone fro any given reason. The Un thing was only to show that your "theory" wouldn't work that well in practice.

terrorists do it its called insurgency.

And because they do it so should we?
Apart from that, Terrorist fight in geurillastyle. Not that easy to fight off.

it happens in western countries but in comparison, western countries hit hard, but muslim countries dont do enough

What about the colleteral damage? All the innocent muslims who fell victem of this "hard hitting"?