Atheism
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Uthman
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root
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Philosphy is something I don't care for much. the problem with dealing with atheists three fold:
1. Atheist's don't really share a common belief other than they do not subscribe to a faith. What one Atheist may beleive another may not, it is wrong to "Pigeon Hole" an atheists belief to that of a Muslim or Christian.
2. Atheists do not subscribe in totality to the "theory of evolution" but do subscribe to the evolved man independent of a "creator"
3. An atheist does accept a notion of "creationism" but does not subscribe to this as "God". The best way I have come to explain what an atheist belief is.........
An Atheist will beleive in anything for he beleives in nothing.
1. Atheist's don't really share a common belief other than they do not subscribe to a faith. What one Atheist may beleive another may not, it is wrong to "Pigeon Hole" an atheists belief to that of a Muslim or Christian.
2. Atheists do not subscribe in totality to the "theory of evolution" but do subscribe to the evolved man independent of a "creator"
3. An atheist does accept a notion of "creationism" but does not subscribe to this as "God". The best way I have come to explain what an atheist belief is.........
An Atheist will beleive in anything for he beleives in nothing.
root
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I think this statement is a little bias in the way it has been constructed. "We just don't know" is something that religion never seems to tell me, only atheists state such things. For example, I beleive (and some atheists disagree) that life was brought to this planet via comets and\or meteorites. As to how life came to be is simply still not understood yet for people like me. For you it's easy. Read the Bible and Quran, it tells you.
SpaceFalcon2001
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Assuming they read it literally.
root
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yoshiyahu said:
It also tells us about Noah's Arc and the great flood, yet their is no proof that it occured. (and scientifically their should be). though it is true that an area near to where it is described did indeed suffer a very large flood which were recorded as "stories" and indeed told about well before either genesis or the bible.
Even the story itself, of which I don't deny as a story suffers a lot of inconcistencies in scientific knowledge when the story is told. Two examples are:
1. In that time they did not realise that trees were in fact living and breathing life forms.
2. Whales breath air too, and would not have survived the great flood along with all the sea life and vegetation found in low grounds, yet they did.
It does not need to be proven really because you can simply claim a "Miracle" event. And thus the debate ends here on a question of "faith", which brings us full circle in that as an Atheist I have no faith in religion nor man's ability to translate original scripture.
on the topic of how; please refer to Surah al-Anbiyah 21: verses 30, 31 and 32 . . . 
أحمد
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root said:
mg: Not really, but I can give you the translation (copied from: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbi...odeng/parsed&tag=public&part=21&division=div1 )
"21.30": Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
"21.31": And We have made great mountains in the earth lest it might be convulsed with them, and We have made in it wide ways that they may follow a right direction.
"21.32": And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.
:shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade:
TrueMeasure
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interesting thread although i havent read all of it... interesting comments from root too... you may have already answered these questions but i would like your thoughts on the following:
how did the universe come into being? what was before it? and what contains it?
how does materialism account for information? for example you can have a book made of paper and written with ink but the words that are written cannot come from a materialistic source, there has to be intelligence..(DNA?)
and finally for now how do you explain the order and complexities in our universe when this clashes with the second law of thermodynamics (i think) where everything is in a state of entropy...
thanks..
how did the universe come into being? what was before it? and what contains it?
how does materialism account for information? for example you can have a book made of paper and written with ink but the words that are written cannot come from a materialistic source, there has to be intelligence..(DNA?)
and finally for now how do you explain the order and complexities in our universe when this clashes with the second law of thermodynamics (i think) where everything is in a state of entropy...
thanks..
root
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Don't know....... Presently we know their was a "Big Bang" and all visible matter comes from a specific point, which coincidently is where the "echo" of the big bang also eminates from.
Don't know? I settle on "Nothing" for now
[Qoute]and what contains it?[/QUOTE]
Don't know, though the expansion of the universe does seem to have some laws and science using those laws science realised that their model's were incomplete and this lead them to speculate then confirm the existence of "Dark matter".
Are you saying DNA is intelligence? I would disagree with this.
With the concept of "Time" and basic laws of physics & nature coupled with multiple events and not singular events. A numbers game so to speak.
Brother_Mujahid
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a numbers gameroot said:
well this number game sure has indication of intelligence and of greater power controlling everything, what say you? agree.......
TrueMeasure
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root said:
Some very honest answers, i'll commemorate you on that!
There are somethings i believe that science will never be able to explain simply because the explanations transcend the laws of physics and science of this universe. For me this explanation is God. God cannot be proved by any science or mathematical formula because he transcends them as He is the Creator of them but there can still be ample evidence for Him all around to see. If God was a proven fact, then it would not be much use for this 'test' we call life as everybody would go to heaven. It is meant to take an act of faith for one to believe in God.
Everyone has faith in something, even an atheist. Your faith or belief lie in science or that science will provide the answers to everything. But what if it requires more than science to understand this world and our purpose?
Not that i am saying science is 'evil' on the contrary i take all the wonders and discoveries of science as undeniable evidence of God.
For example, DNA. A billion nucleotides in a space of nanometers. Enough information to fill volumes of books. Our best attempts at storing large quantities of information are nowhere near as efficient as this and we are considered as intelligent beings. But more amazing than that is what the information the DNA code for!
GTG soz for the sharp cut off!
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root
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No I would not agree.
If a referee of a football game had a "Yelow Card" (Y) & "Red card" (R). Now if the same referee pulled these cards out repeatedly & completely randomly showing either a red or a yellow, would it be possible for someone to correctly get the correct random sequence of say "YYRYRRYYRYRRRRYRYYYYRRRYY"
Impossible or probable? The choice is yours. To follow the sequence to achieve the first four would only take 16 people. Compare the quantity of 16 with an Infinate number, and then ask how many correct sequences out of a million would it take for one "Lucky" person to correctly match what the referee has randomly chose. For 1 individual could match this random pattern a Million times!!!! (Now that is an impossibility brought about into a fact) others would call it a miracle and some would say "Lucky fella".....
As for the concept of time. We cannot appreciate time outside of our own experiences. Sure we know how long a day is or a week. Year, 10 years. However go any further say 50 years and it is starting to be difficult to appreciate 50 years. Double that to 100 years, and you cannot really appreciate 100 years. 1000 years, again it is beyond our scope and so on and so on. When we start talking Billions of years we do lose the plot. Imagine a solid steel pipe 100 metres long and 12 inch thick. Everyday you wipe it once with a velvet cloth at one end. the time it takes to erode this steel to nothing by simply 1 wipe per day is about the time that the earth has been evolving, This is beyond the concept of human understanding. Another way of putting it is that I live in Scotland. let's say that every step I took represented 1000 years. If I take 1 step away from my front door I am in the year 1000. Another step and I am already at the Birth of Jesus, a third and I am in a time 1,000 years before the birth of christ how far do you think I need to walk to arrive at the beginning of the universe? I would probably need to walk down to just to get to the formation of the Earth leicester to get their. And onto london to get to the beginning of the universe.
You can do the maths if you want, 1 good step by myself will be 100 metres. This is what I mean by Time & numbers.
I disagree that Atheists have "faith" in science for we do not. The difference is that I don't have faith in science, I have trust in it, because it has demonstrated time and time again that it works. That trust is based on evidence. Faith isn't based on anything, it merely bridges the "gaps". if I drop a stone, I don't require faith to tell me it will fall to the ground.
I have a question. If you were terminally ill, and you faced two options of which you only could choose one over the other. Would you put your "Trust" in Medical Science or preyer.
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TrueMeasure
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root said:
But you do have faith. you have faith that science alone will provide you with all the answers to everything. You must have faith to believe in the theory of evolution otherwise it would be called the law of evolution or the fact of evolution. Everyone has faith. Its just where you decide to put it that matters.
In a world full time and numbers we can believe in anything. For example if a house made of bricks that had windows and a door was found on another planet who is to say that it wasnt the product of time, luck and numbers. Surely given the billions of stars and perhaps billions of planets that circle those stars that have been around for billions of years this is not impossible. Maybe not, but it is astronomically improbable. It is where you decide to draw the line and think about other possibilities such as intelligent design.
A single cell shows much more complexities than a house made of bricks. It has even been likened to a functional city with the nucleus as the centre of intelligence, the mitochondria as the power station, the golgi apparatus as the post officing block etc etc. I cannot for the life of me seriously believe such a complex thing could arise by product of time and chance.
If i told you that a tornado ripped through a junk yard but in its path left a fully constructed boeing 747, you would think i was completely mad. Yet this the same chance for evolution as in the words of a reknowned pro-evolutionist Fred Hoyle:
A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing 747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there? So small as to be negligible, even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole Universe. (Hoyle, Fred [late mathematician, physicist and Professor of Astronomy, Cambridge University], "The Intelligent Universe," Michael Joseph: London, 1983, p.19
two more of my favourite examples:
Origin of one biopolymer (protein) by chance
Comparable with the chance that "10 to the 50 blind persons each with a scrambled Rubik cube...all simultaneously arriving at the solved form"
"At all events, anyone with even a nodding acquaintance with the Rubik cube will concede the near-impossibility of a solution being obtained by a blind person moving the cube faces at random. Now imagine 10 to the 50 blind persons each with a scrambled Rubik cube, and try to conceive of the chance of them all simultaneously arriving at the solved form. You then have the chance of arriving by random shuffling of just one of the many biopolymers on which life depends. The notion that not only the biopolymers but the operating programme of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order. (Hoyle, Fred [late mathematician, physicist and Professor of Astronomy, Cambridge University], "The Big Bang in Astronomy," New Scientist, 19 November 1981, pp.521-527, p.527. Emphasis Hoyle's).
For a relatively small protein of 100 amino acids, selection of this correct sequence had to be made by chance from 10 to the 130 alternative choices"
"This generalized proposition-that processes of chance and natural law led to living organisms emerging on Earth from the relatively simple organic molecules in 'primordial soups'-is valid only if there is a finite probability of the correct assembly of molecules occurring within the time-scale envisaged. Here there is another great problem. In the above example for a relatively small protein of 100 amino acids, selection of this correct sequence had to be made by chance from 10 to the 130 alternative choices. The operation of pure chance would mean that within a maximum of about 500 million years (or somewhat less), the organic molecules in the 'primordial soup' might have to undergo 10 to the 130 trial assemblies to hit on the correct sequence. The probability of such a chance occurrence leading to the formation of one of the smallest protein molecules is unimaginably small. Within the boundary conditions of time and space which we are considering, it is effectively zero." (Brooks, Jim [geochemist, former Vice-President, Geological Society]., "Origins of Life," Lion: Tring, Hertfordshire UK, 1985, pp.84-85).
As for your question, that is a simple choice. I was looking for this particular saying of the Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon him) when i came across a paragraph that would adequatly summarise my answer.
One day Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it. He asked the Bedouin, "Why don't you tie down your camel?" The Bedouin answered, "I put my trust in Allah." The Prophet then said, "Tie your camel first, then put your trust in Allah" (Tirmidhi).
Muslims must never become fatalistic. Although we know only Allah is in control and that He has decreed all things, we are each responsible for making the right choices and doing the right thing in all situations of our lives. We must take action. We must work to alleviate the hardships we, our families and our communities face.
The sea did not part by itself. Moses had to do his part of striking the sea with the staff first before God parted the sea for Moses.
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