Attention those with religion "other"

[Pygoscelis]

If you reject the truth in your heart,

But I am not rejecting the truth in my heart. Perhaps you could say I am blind to the truth, or ignorant of the truth, but I'm not rejecting it, as from my perspective there is no it to reject. That is what you are incapable of recognizing. I find that fascinating. You need me being rebellious and disobedient, and dishonest about it, rather than just me being wrong. Why is that? Some other Muslims here don't seem to have this problem. Are you insecure in your faith?

 

[Abz2000]

Lying will only compoud the problems of the one who lies, first thing to do is admit to yourself is that kufr is denial, especially after the clear signs that have reached you, the next effort is to attempt to walk upon the straight path.
Most importantly, don't harm the Muslims, problem is that kufr is injustice and infidelity in and of itself so ultimately you'll end up doing injustice upon your own nafs and the lack/absence of fidelity will harm others.
sad is the situation of the kafir in this world and in eternity.
Ponder within yourself, of what value is the oath of someone who considers adultery to be a good thing, then consider, what of the one who shows infidelity to his Lord and Cherisher, his Creator and sustainer?

Does the vessel say of the potter, he exists not and never did exist?
What a foolish vessel it would be.

 

[SSHorror]

I cannot be part of Christianity or any religion that has shed blood, I'm not judging, but I believe every human life is gods, we have no right to destroy his creation, for we are not our own, we are his. One god, one truth, but no one sees, the two greatest commandments as spoken by Jesus, love your neighbor as your own flesh, and love The Lord your god with all your heart mind and strength. So god wants us to love one another, not to kill one another. All of the prophets call for love and obedience. I don't understand destroying gods creation, or hate, or evil. But god only wants us to love him and all others.

Religion is not the cause of the shed of blood. Human desires are and humans will use anything from religion to politics to advance an agenda. Should we reject democracy because of politics being used to cause war? No, so it's stupid to reject religion because someone in the past decided to use it for bad.

 

[SSHorror]

You know I see atheists (and it's normally atheists) always blaming religion for bad things, citing that that's why they would refuse to ever follow such a system even if they did believe in a god. It's ironic because these very same people often will not condemn communism which has continuously killed to advance its ideology and in fact, it has killed more than any religion. Perhaps they refuse to condemn it because communism is a anti-religious political system which teaches that a utopia can be achieved but only if we free ourselves from capitalism and religion. Now while there's many atheists who aren't communist, I have a hard time seeing many disagree with the idea that the world would be a utopia without religion. That's what many seem to naively believe.

 

[Pygoscelis]

You know I see atheists (and it's normally atheists) always blaming religion for bad things, citing that that's why they would refuse to ever follow such a system even if they did believe in a god.

I do not blame religion for most of the horrors done in its name, though I do blame the authoritarianism and tribalism that religion often fosters, and the literal demonization of the outgroup. No, religion isn't the only tool for that. Nationalism is another.

It's ironic because these very same people often will not condemn communism which has continuously killed to advance its ideology and in fact, it has killed more than any religion. Perhaps they refuse to condemn it because communism is a anti-religious political system which teaches that a utopia can be achieved but only if we free ourselves from capitalism and religion.

This is incorrect in a number of ways.

First, I and many other atheists oppose communism as a system of government for a nation. It can work in small groups (such as families and religious communes), but breaks down in large groups, once empathy fades and people stop feeling related and start seeing others within their own tribe as strangers (such as in large cities or nations).

Second, Communism has not "continuously killed". Amish communes, family unit communes haven't killed anybody so far as I am aware. Communism is not the Soviet Union anymore than Capitalism is the USA. They are just one example of each, and neither is a pure example (there is plenty of socialism in the US - from public libraries to the police and military). Nor has communism "killed more than any religion". One only needs to look back on the Christian crusaders and missionaries and "manifest destiny". And communism itself is no more to blame for such atrocity as religion itself is. It is the people running either, the tribalism involved in either and the authoritarianism involved in either that can become the problem.

Third, Communism need not have anything to do with anti-religion. It can be completely religion based in fact. It just means that the group as a whole (called the state) owns everything and there is no private ownership. In small groups where everybody knows and cares for each other, it works just fine. If you and your housemates (or your family) don't label everything in the house and in the fridge and pantry demanding nobody else use it, and you can all eat and use what you want when you want, you are living in a communist household. It works on that level, and on a slightly larger level than that (imagine your neighbours and friends working with you the same way). It falls apart once you get too big.

 

[SSHorror]

Second, Communism has not "continuously killed". Amish communes, family unit communes haven't killed anybody so far as I am aware. Communism is not the Soviet Union anymore than Capitalism is the USA. They are just one example of each, and neither is a pure example (there is plenty of socialism in the US - from public libraries to the police and military). Nor has communism "killed more than any religion". One only needs to look back on the Christian crusaders and missionaries and "manifest destiny". And communism itself is no more to blame for such atrocity as religion itself is. It is the people running either, the tribalism involved in either and the authoritarianism involved in either that can become the problem.

Third, Communism need not have anything to do with anti-religion. It can be completely religion based in fact. It just means that the group as a whole (called the state) owns everything and there is no private ownership. It fails in large groups because people are selfish. In small groups where everybody knows and cares for each other, it works just fine.

When I refer to communism, I refer to communism as a national political system, not a system used in small Amish communes and family units. I refer to the communism we saw in the Soviet Union, the communism we see in China (which still does kill people), the communism we see in Vietnam (which still does kill people) and the communism we see in North Korea (which still does kill people).

And yes, communism has killed more than any religion. It is has explicitly executed citizens who opposed it, we saw this in Soviet Russia with Stalin. The Crusades on the other-hand were not because of Christian reasons but political reasons (primary to stop the Seljuk turks' expansion of their empire).

Concerning your last point: In Marx's official doctrine, he demands the eradication of religion and the establishment of a society free from religion for his communism to work. I'm aware of all the different forms of communism but I'm specifically referring to Marx's communism, the communism which has been followed by all the countries I've mentioned (which subsequently banned religion or suppressed religious freedom). The communism these countries have followed have all been Marxist.

 

[SSHorror]

While there's many atheists who do not support communism, for me it seems that most communist groups consist of atheists.

 

[Pygoscelis]

If you insist on defining "Communism" as anti-relgious Communism, it should not surprise anyone that such people are not themselves religious.

And yes, the Stalinist version of communism did have people killing in its name. But let's not pretend that people have not killed in the name of religion since the dawn of humanity. Everything from ancient Aztec human sacrifices to the Gods, to witch Christian burnings and infidel hunts, to Muslim Daesh would be staring you in the face.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

And trying to get back to the title of the thread; I wonder where God is in all this apparent conflict? Was it God's intention that the three Abrahamic religions should cause tensions and wars?

[/IMG]

In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant, (the Ten Commandments) it is where Jesus worshiped. The Temple was destroyed not long after the time of Jesus, and then the Islamic Dome of the Rock is built were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven to meet all the other prophets, on this same site, associated with Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.

When you look above the Wailing Wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. You queue up to go up to the mosque from the Jewish side, and enter under the blue canopy, there is a sign that says – This is a most sacred place where God is always present. By this sign are Israeli Police with guns, and their riot shields are stacked against the wall ready for use.

It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.

God could have made our lives much easier if he had placed our three religions a thousand miles apart, but it seems that God has some greater purpose by bringing all three religions together in one place. Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.

Justice and peace on Earth depends on us trying to understand and do God’s will; despite all our differences. The bottom line seems to be that all the land belongs to God, we are all but temporary custodians, somehow we should seek to share all things as they were given to us by God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of One God

Eric