Authority of the Scriptures

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please help me to understand this. Muslims believe the Gospels have been corrupted. Yet, over and over again, including the book you referenced me to see on the internet, Muslims use verses of Scripture to support their thinking and their perspective. I cannot understand that:heated::? Please correct me if I am wrong. If someone takes a verse from a source they say is corrupt in order to support their perspective, who is to say that the verse they are using is not corrupt? Please help me to understand this. You have quoted a verse to illustrate your point but I'm sure you will be one of the first people to say the Injeel is corrupt. How do you know that the verse you used to make your point is not a verse that is corrupt and therefore does not mean what it actually says?

Hello POBook,
You asked this before and I answered it and since then my answer has not changed, so I don't see the need to repeat myself.

As for the verse from the New Testament I quoted, it obviously is one human's input into what Jesus did but the sole point is that Jesus preached a message - this is what Muslims believe and this is even what is found in the New Testament, as altered as it may be.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hello POBook,
I will explain this verse, which should answer all of your questions. The verse says:
5:43 But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurât (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allâh; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.

The historical context of this verse (as recorded in many sources such as Al-Baghawi, Ibn Kathir, etc.) is that some of the Jews would bring their disputes to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh because they believed he would give them easier or less severe verdicts than those which they found in the Torah. Yet at the same time they still remained disbelievers and did not accept Islam. The sheer hypocrisy of these people, in asking the Prophet saws for a judgement when they did not believe in him is exposed in this verse. They did not even follow their own Torah, even though they believed it to be the true command of God!

The particular incident was that two Jews committed adultery and then came to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh seeking a lesser punishment because their tribes felt it was inappropriate to punish people from noble families. In this case, they evaded the law God had revealed to Moses pbuh concerning the adulterers.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks very much for your reply and continuing dialogue. The way you have explained this verse was my basic understanding of it. It is interesting to know about the particular sin which was being addressed--adultary. Before I move on to the next verse, let me clarify one more thing. Was Allah saying that the Jews did not need to be coming to Muhammad for a decision, because their own Torah already had the decision--the laws?

Sincerely,

 

[Abu Zakariya]

As for the preservation of the Tawrat and the Injeel, God gave the responsibility of that task to the people. It was their duty to preserve it. Why? God knows best. Maybe as a test...

As for the Qur'an, the last revelation, the preservation of it was something God took upon Himself, so to speak. This time, humans weren't responsible for it's preservation, instead, He guaranteed He would preserve it.

This was mentioned by Ansar al-'Adl in previous discussions. Perhaps he can elaborate.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hi POBook,
No, it was just exposing their hypocrisy. Rejecting him altogether is still wrong, but coming to him for a judgement while rejecting him is downright hypocritical.

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Br. Abu Zakariya,
Previous revelations were specific to the nation for which they were sent, hence the test for the people was to preserve the text. For the Qur'an, its message is universal, os insteading of being tested with preserving the text, Muslims have the test of propagating the message to the world, while God preserves the text. So everyone was tested, just in different ways. As I said in a previous thread:

For previous revelations, God entrusted the duty of their preservation to their nation. But for the Qur'an, Muslims do not have the duty of its preservation but its propagation as the Qur'an is a revelation for all humanity (previous prophets were sent specifically to their nations).

I hope that clarifies.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Do you mind explaining your previous answer in another way. I do not quite understand your previous answer.

Thanks,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hi POBook,
The jews did not believe in the Prophet Muhammad pbuh yet they still came to him for a judgement. The ayat is asking them why they come to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if they don't think he's a prophet? That's hypocritical. That doesn't mean that the ayat is saying, "reject him completely" it is merely exposing their hypocrisy.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Previous revelations were specific to the nation for which they were sent, hence the test for the people was to preserve the text.

For which nation was the Injeel specifically sent?

Thanks,

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

I am still confused:? . Allow me to express this verse in everyday English if I may:

"But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurât (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allâh; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers."

"Muhammad, how do these Jews come to you to make a decision concerning them having broken one of their laws? They have their own consequences for breaking their own laws. Their laws are found in their Torah and the consequences for breaking those laws are also found in their Torah. They need to consult their own law instead of coming to you. You need to know Muhammad, that even if they consulted their own Law, they are hypocrites, and would not follow what it says, so why do you think they would follow what you might say. Don't waste your time with them."

Thanks,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

No, that's not an accurate expression of the meaning. It would be more like:

"Even though they reject you, O Muhammad, and disbelieve in you, these Jews still come to you for a decision. They claim to follow the Torah yet they seek a ruling from the prophet they reject instead of the laws of their torah. Yet even when they take a ruling from you, they still are not believers."

I see no reason for these phrases you have added:
"they need to consult their own law instead of coming to you."
"Don't waste your time with them."

Regards

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Matthew 15:24 [Jesus] answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

See also Matthew 10:5-7.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Is this text not corrupt?

Sincerely,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I just explained this issue a few posts back. Belief that the Bible has been changed does not mean everything in it is false. We use the Qur'an as a criterion to decide what is true and what isn't.

So this verse I cited is in agreement with the Qur'anic belief that Prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the children of Israel.

 

[M H Kahn]

Greetings mizan_aliashraf,

Thanks for your response.



If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?

Hi PO Book !
Islam means the act of submitting one's self by the believer to the will of Allah. The Quran has made it known that the religion of Islam (submission to the will of Allah) was preached by all the messengers of Allah in the language of the people amongst whom they were sent by Him. Islam is the natural religion of every human being. Right from the beginning of mankind's journey in this planet, every messenger of Allah has preached Islam, but misunderstanding, bias and hatred among the followers of the prophets corrupted the original messages time and again. The differences among the various peoples with regard to religion and sects are due to the tendency of revolt against the truth after it has been made known. As Allah says:

The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.[3:19]

Many among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) wish they could somehow turn you back to unbelief, due to their selfish envy, after the truth has become quite clear to them. Forgive them and bear with them until Allah brings about His decision; rest assured that Allah has power over everything.[2:109]

They say: "None shall enter paradise except the one who is a Jew or a Christian." These are their vain desires. Say O Muhammad: "Let us have your proof if you are right in your claim."[2:111]

 

[POBook]

Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Again, thanks for your replies.

I just explained this issue a few posts back. Belief that the Bible has been changed does not mean everything in it is false. We use the Qur'an as a criterion to decide what is true and what isn't.

So this verse I cited is in agreement with the Qur'anic belief that Prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the children of Israel.

Please refer me to the Qur'anic verse/s that reflect the same idea as Matthew 15:24

Thanks,

 

[POBook]

Hi there M H Kahn,

Thanks for your continuing dialgue. I appreciate your response but I do not think you answered the question. Allow me to ask it again:

If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?

Thanks,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please refer me to the Qur'anic verse/s that reflect the same idea as Matthew 15:24

Qur'an 3:49 And [God] will make him [Jesus] a Messenger to the Children of Israel.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks again for your response. I feel your expression of that verse is not quite the same, but for now, let's move on to the next verse:

Al-Qur'an, 005.044 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

1. Did God reveal the Law to Moses?
2. What was "guidance and light"?
3. By which/whose standard?
4. Am I right in reading this verse in the following way: "By it's standard have been judged the Jews, by [its standard have been judged] the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by [its standard have been judged] the rabbis and the doctors of law:"?
5. "for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?
6. Were the Jews, the prophets, the rabbis, and the doctors of the law the "witnesses thereto"? To what were they witnesses?
7. "Therefore, fear not men, but fear me." In other words, "Obey my laws!"?
8. "And sell not my signs for a miserable price." In other words, "Do not disobey the laws in order to get something you want."?
9. "If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed,..." This light revealed by Allah, I assume is the same light revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? Allah was saying they needed to judge by the law given to them--they must not fail in judging according to this law?

Again, thanks for your feedback !

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hello POBook,
It seems to me that you are relying solely on the Yusuf Ali translation, which does not always have the clearest phrases, causing some confusion. Sometimes the confusion can be cleared by glancing at a few other translations.

Khan-Hilali translation:
Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws ).

Saheeh Int'l translation:
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Your questions...

[*]Did God reveal the Law to Moses?

Yes the Tawrat was revealed to Moses.

[*]What was "guidance and light"?

The Tawrat.

[*]By which/whose standard?

The Prophets, Rabbis and scholars yahkum (Judged/ruled/legislated) the Jews according to the laws of the Tawrat.

[*]Am I right in reading this verse in the following way: "By it's standard have been judged the Jews, by [its standard have been judged] the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by [its standard have been judged] the rabbis and the doctors of law:"?

No, see above.

[*]"for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?

The Jews were given the duty to preserve the revelation of Prophet Moses pbuh, but they failed and much of the present Hebrew Bible is believed to be altered/corrupted.

[*]Were the Jews, the prophets, the rabbis, and the doctors of the law the "witnesses thereto"? To what were they witnesses?

They were witnesses to the truth of the Tawrat, and witnesses to the duty given to them to assign it, and witnesses to its corruption.

[*]"Therefore, fear not men, but fear me." In other words, "Obey my laws!"?

That would be a logical consequence of fearing God.

[*]"And sell not my signs for a miserable price." In other words, "Do not disobey the laws in order to get something you want."?

It relates to their alteration of the laws as well as their disobedience.

[*]"If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed,..." This light revealed by Allah, I assume is the same light revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? Allah was saying they needed to judge by the law given to them--they must not fail in judging according to this law?

'light' is in brackets, i.e. the words of the translator. We are to judge by whatever Allah has revealed and the Qur'an is the final revelation and criterion for that.

I hope this helps.