Authority of the Scriptures

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Thanks for such a quick reply. I'm still reading your reply but I have a quick question. My Avatar and Signature were removed and I had to re-install them. Do you know how this could have happened?

Thanks,

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

This has helped thank you. Still some clarity needed regarding one question.

Quote:
"for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?

The Jews were given the duty to preserve the revelation of Prophet Moses pbuh, but they failed and much of the present Hebrew Bible is believed to be altered/corrupted.

Where in this verse does it say that the revelation was altered and corrupted?

Thanks,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

It isn't mentioned in this specific verse.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Thanks Ansar Al-'Adl,

My Avatar and Signature were removed and I had to re-install them. Do you know how this could have happened?

This time my signature has been removed. Are you able to tell me how and why this is happening ?

 

[Far7an]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings,

This time my signature has been removed. Are you able to tell me how and why this is happening ?

I tried to contact you via pm and email, but it seems you do not accept either. Your signature was removed as we recieved some complaints, they might seem offensive to some.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings Far7an,

Thanks for your reply.

I tried to contact you via pm and email, but it seems you do not accept either. Your signature was removed as we recieved some complaints, they might seem offensive to some.

I'm not quite sure what pm is and I did not receive an e-mail regarding this. Do you mind telling me what people found offensive about my sigature?

Thanks,

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings again Ansar Al-'Adl,

Al-Qur'an, 005.045 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

"And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life , eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which God has revealed, such are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers -- of a lesser degree)."

I hope this is the translation you were suggesting. When Allah said, "And we ordained therein for them...", can I assume he is referring to the following verses in the Torah:

• Lev 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Whatever injury he inflicted on the person, the same is to be inflicted on him.
  
• Exo 21:23-24 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
  
• Deu 19:21 You must not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, and foot for foot.

Sincerely,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Yes, it is referring to the Mosaic law.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

If he was referring to Mosaic law, was this law in tact or was he referring to corrupted law?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

The original law; the verse says "We ordained therein for them" i.e. at the time of Prophet Moses in the Tawrat.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Does this mean that the Mosaic law at the time Muhammad received his revelation, was corrupted, but God revealed to Muhammad what He had revealed in the law earlier--Muhammad was not looking at the law as it had been written but was rather hearing from God what He had written in the Torah earlier--is this your understanding?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Does this mean that the Mosaic law at the time Muhammad received his revelation, was corrupted

Not necessarily. This law was so well known that the Jews were still familiar with it and even today its still found in the Bible.

Muhammad was not looking at the law as it had been written but was rather hearing from God what He had written in the Torah earlier--is this your understanding?

God is speaking in the verses, stating that He ordained the law of retribution for the Jews. How it was recorded, or what is preserved in the Jewish scriptures, or what was implemented - none of this is being discussed here. Only that God ordained for them the law of retribution.

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings to you Ansar Al-'Adl,

I am back in town. I sent you a message to find out if my new signature would be offensive. Please give me some feedback on this. Thanks also for your reply to my previous question. On to the next:

Al-Qur'an, 005.046 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)[], confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

1. In whose footsteps?
2. What is meant by "confirming the Taurat that had come before him"?
3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?

Concerning ? 2:
In your previous reply you said:

This law was so well known that the Jews were still familiar with it and even today it's still found in the Bible.

In Deuteronomy 8:3 we read,

"He humbled you by letting you go hungry; then He gave you manna to eat, which you and your fathers had not known, so that you might learn that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD."​

In Deuteronomy 6:13 we read,

"Fear the Lord your God and serve Him only and take your oaths in His name."​

In Deuteronomy 6:16 we read,

"Do not test the Lord your God as you did at Massah."​

These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?

Sincerely and thanks again for your continuing dialogue,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings to you Ansar Al-'Adl,

I am back in town. I sent you a message to find out if my new signature would be offensive. Please give me some feedback on this. Thanks also for your reply to my previous question.

Hi POBook,
You're better off not using a depiction of Jesus, not only because Muslims will not appreciate it, but also because of the simple fact that Jesus was not a white american. If that is not supposed to be Jesus in your signature, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

1. In whose footsteps?

In the footsteps of previous prophets.

2. What is meant by "confirming the Taurat that had come before him"?

He confirmed that it was a true revelation from God.

3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?

The pious people of his nation.

These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?

The answer is the same for the entire Bible - the Qur'an is the criterion.

Regards

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks very much for your feedback regarding my signature. I have once again made some changes to it. I know we are different in our beliefs. At the same time, we are very much the same in the strength of our beliefs. I truly want to be strong in my faith, belief, and witness but at the same time, be sincerely respectful of Muslims.

If that is not supposed to be Jesus in your signature, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

It is a depiction or picture of the actor who portrayed the life of Jesus according to Luke's gospel in the "Jesus" film. Even if it wasn't, please, you never have to apologize...we all make mistakes...including me.

"...the simple fact that Jesus was not a white american."

Based on many of my false assumptions in the past (and probably still today:rollseyes ), my Dad always told me, "assumptions are dangerous". The actor in the Jesus film was not a white American. The role of Jesus was played by British Shakespearean actor Brian Deacon. I also think it is important to understand that these actors in the "Jesus" film were selected to be the best possible depictions of the people in Jesus' time. Jesus was a Hebrew speaking Jew. As such, He was what we might depict as a "white" person. To me, skin color is not the issue. Character is the issue.

Quote:
3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?

The pious people of his nation.

Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?

Quote:
These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?

The answer is the same for the entire Bible - the Qur'an is the criterion.

Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."​

Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."​

Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Again, thanks for your dialogue. I appreciated the message you posted in the thread, Interfaith Dialogue, Discussing Religion with the People of the Scripture.

Sincerely,

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Al-Qur'an, 005.047 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh.

• Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
• If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
• Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

Sincerely and thanks,

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

I truly want to be strong in my faith, belief, and witness but at the same time, be sincerely respectful of Muslims.

Thank you for your consideration

Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?

I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. They were primarily his disciples.

Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."​

Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."​

Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?

First thing to do is discuss what the obvious meaning of these verses is. If the verse is consistent with the Qur'an's message then it is possible that it is true.

I appreciated the message you posted in the thread, Interfaith Dialogue, Discussing Religion with the People of the Scripture.

That's very good to hear. The website from that article was taken is http://www.islamtoday.com

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh.

For some reason I thought we had already discussed this verse, but whatever the case I'll go over it.

Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?

The message being emphasized here is that if the people of the Injeel used studied their revelation they would find that it is confirmed by the Qur'an and the essential message of both books is the same. If they judged the truth on the basis of their revelation they would realize the validity of Muhammad's Prophethood and the Qur'an as God's final message to mankind.

If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

They themselves knew that their scriptures had not been perfectly preserved, but so long as they studied the essential message of Jesus himself as recorded in their scriptures they would recognize the truth of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I hope this helps.

 

[QURBAN]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Al-Qur'an, 005.047 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

• Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
• If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
• Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

Sincerely and thanks,

In The Name Of Allah The Most Beneficient and the Most Merciful

Kind Regards

The verse means people at the time of Jesus will be judged by what Allah has revealed the corruption is NOT what Allah has revealed

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for the response .

Quote:
Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?

I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. They were primarily his disciples.

I was just wanting to know if the pious people were Jews, Christians, Greeks...who?

Quote:
Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?

First thing to do is discuss what the obvious meaning of these verses is. If the verse is consistent with the Qur'an's message then it is possible that it is true.

I'm not really wanting to discuss the meaning of these verses right now or their connection to the Qur'an. These verses can be found in the Torah which is accepted as True. They are also found in the gospel of Luke. My question again, is are they corrupt or true and accurate as verses found in the Gospel of Luke?

Quote:
Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?

The message being emphasized here is that if the people of the Injeel used studied their revelation they would find that it is confirmed by the Qur'an and the essential message of both books is the same.

What Injeel was being used; what revelation was needing to be studied by these people?

Quote:
If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

They themselves knew that their scriptures had not been perfectly preserved,...

How do we know that they knew their Scriptures had not been perfectly preserved?

Sincerely and with thanks,

 

[POBook]

Re: Understanding Al-Maeda 43-48

Greetings Again ,

Al-Qur'an, 005.048 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])​

And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

1. What is meant by "judge between them by what Allah has revealed"?
2. Follow not whose vain desires?
3. Conerning "To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way": Is it it correct to say, "To you Jews and Christians, We have prescribed a law and a clear way; to you Muslims We have prescribed a law and a clear way"?
4. "If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation..." Is He saying that if Allah willed, He would have made Jews, Christians, and Muslims one nation (ie. three in one...kay: ) in the sense that they would be neither of these three individual groups, but rather one large common group?
5. "But that He may test you in what He has given you" Is this that Allah would test the Jews in what He had given them--the Torah; the Christians in what He had given them--the Injeel; the Muslims in what He had given them--the Qur'an.
6. "Then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ." Was this in reference to the differences in revelation and application between the Torah, Injeel, and Qur'an?​

Sincerely,
PS: I hope you did not mind me expressing a little sense of humor above with the three in one--we have dialogued on that issue much.