Babies in Christianity..I don't get it

[*charisma*]

Greetings,

Something I never really understood in Christianity is the role of the babies. Why are they born sinful? I understand how it goes back to generations of when Adam and Eve sinned passed down to the new generation, but they're babies! Also, If a baby died before being baptized or any of that..do they go to hell??

Peace

 

[glo]

Hi,

I'm not sure I am best qualified to answer your question, but I will try - I am sure that people will correct me if necessary.

I think there are two different issues here.
Yes, Christians believe that all humans are sinners, and that since Adam and Eve broke God's law, all fall short of God's commands. The Old Testament domenstrates over and over again, how the tribe of Israel again and again sinned against God, despite everything He did for them.
And we know for ourselves how difficult (or should that be 'impossible'?) it is to be obedient and good in God's eyes.
Not a day goes by that I don't sin or do wrong. Would you agree?

So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.
Some Christian denominations deal with this problem by christening small babies, but overall Christianity does not teach that children go to hell.
But Jesus loved children and said that 'their's would be the kingdom of God'.
As far as I understand children cannot make a real decision in what they believe, until they reach a certain age (i.e. teenage years). Until they are old enough to make that decision, they will always enter the kingdom of God.
The same applies to adults wo are mentally incapable of making such a decision.

Does that answer your question?
I feel very rambly this morning!:giggling:

Peace,
glo

 

[*charisma*]

Greetings

Thanks for the reply

So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.
Some Christian denominations deal with this problem by christening small babies, but overall Christianity does not teach that children go to hell.

So sinners dont go to hell?? and if babies dont go to hell then they arent sinning? or they dont have sin? what if they dont get baptized before they die? im getting confused :-[

As far as I understand children cannot make a real decision in what they believe, until they reach a certain age (i.e. teenage years). Until they are old enough to make that decision, they will always enter the kingdom of God.
The same applies to adults wo are mentally incapable of making such a decision

I agree with that part

peace

 

[glo]

Hello again.

Firstly, I am glad that you are agreeing with some of my post! :giggling:

So sinners dont go to hell?? and if babies dont go to hell then they arent sinning? or they dont have sin? what if they dont get baptized before they die? im getting confused

I will try to explain to the best of my knowledge.
As a Christian I believe that all people are sinners. We can try to live a good and holy life, but we will always fall short of God's standards. (Would you as a Muslim agree with that?)
Therefore we cannot earn entry into God's kingdom. But God grants us entry in his mercy, when we repent our sins and believe in Him. Jesus said that the only way to enter heaven is 'through him'. Christians believe that our sins have only become forgivable, because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us by giving his life.
The decision to become a Christian is really something we do individually in our hearts, and it is between the individual and God - but as a public declaration we are baptised. The baptism is a symbol of the end of the old life and the beginning of a new life as a believer.

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.

However, some Christian denominations have the tradition of christening babies, usually at a very young age. That doesn't mean that all unchristened children go to hell. It is more of a declaration of the parents to bring up the child in the Christian faith.

No baby turns into a Christian just by being christened. Becoming a Christian is a conscious decision, which is made at a more mature age.

Am I making any more sense??? :rollseyes ... I am trying! ;D

Gotta go now.

Peace,
glo

 

[*charisma*]

Greetings

As a Christian I believe that all people are sinners. We can try to live a good and holy life, but we will always fall short of God's standards. (Would you as a Muslim agree with that?)

yea

Therefore we cannot earn entry into God's kingdom. But God grants us entry in his mercy, when we repent our sins and believe in Him.

agreed

Jesus said that the only way to enter heaven is 'through him'. Christians believe that our sins have only become forgivable, because Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice for all of us by giving his life.

oh ok, so if jesus pbuh didn't sacrifice himself for the people's sins, no one's sins would be forgivable right?

The decision to become a Christian is really something we do individually in our hearts, and it is between the individual and God - but as a public declaration we are baptised. The baptism is a symbol of the end of the old life and the beginning of a new life as a believer.

i understand that so far..

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.

ok so like children aren't sinners because they are too young to sin, but they are born as sinners, meaning when they grow up they will eventually become sinners? right?
and if that's what you meant, then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? They could possibly die right before they understand the meaning of life and religion etc etc..so then they werent ever sinners to begin with...

However, some Christian denominations have the tradition of christening babies, usually at a very young age. That doesn't mean that all unchristened children go to hell. It is more of a declaration of the parents to bring up the child in the Christian faith.

'
ah i see, but i thought the purpose of being baptized was to be cleansed of sin?

No baby turns into a Christian just by being christened. Becoming a Christian is a conscious decision, which is made at a more mature age.

*confused again* so then technically with this, babies arent born christian? if so, what religion are they born into?

Am I making any more sense??? ... I am trying!

somewhat thanks!!

peace

 

[Nicola]

Hiya

thought I would answer here...instead of the other thread..hope you don't mind

Greetings

oh ok, so if jesus pbuh didn't sacrifice himself for the people's sins, no one's sins would be forgivable right?

It was his sacrifice also his blood...blood is life, his blood is the most precious of all because he was the only human ever to walk the earth who was sinless...in the OT God always required blood for the atonement of sins, with pure unblemished calfs, goats..etc...but this atonement never lasted, from the OT we always knew God would send someone who would atone for our sins...plenty of scriptures lead us to that. Jesus' blood covers our sins..just like God told the jews to cover their door posts, so he would not kill their first borns...(passover)

ok so like children aren't sinners because they are too young to sin, but they are born as sinners, meaning when they grow up they will eventually become sinners? right? and if that's what you meant, then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? They could possibly die right before they understand the meaning of life and religion etc etc..so then they werent ever sinners to begin with...

We are born in sin...it isn't that a baby is sinful...every baby but one grows up to be sinful...I do not know one person in all my life (literaly) that has not sinned...so all babies grow up sinning...
I asked this on another thread...if what you are saying...
then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? Do you actually know a baby who has grown up and never sinned..
what % of babies do you believe grow up into adults and never sin ever?

They all do.
'

ah i see, but i thought the purpose of being baptized was to be cleansed of sin?

No it's Jesus' blood that cleanses us...we are cleansed from sin, as soon as we accept Jesus into our life...the baptizm comes later...depending on each person...

*confused again* so then technically with this, babies arent born christian? if so, what religion are they born into?

Like again I said in another post )...God has no grandchildren...we can't rely on our parents etc to get us into heaven, if they are Christian, that is them...this is us!
Some people go to church every week and never recieve the Spirit of God dwelling inside of them. It can be for all different reasons.
Babies have no religion...if you like they get a free pass up until the age, that they are able to know and understand about God and Jesus...and then are able to choose themselves...Christianity can't be forced, you can't be born into it...but as Christian parents...we do plant the seed into their minds...the rest is between God and themselves.


Luke 8:4-8


Jesus told this parable: [5] 'A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. [6] Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. [7] Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. [8] Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.' When he said this, he called out, 'He who has ears to hear, let him hear.'

When the seed is sown in someones heart...Gods word (The Bible)...these are the things that will happen to that seed, depending on each person.



hope this helps
nic
God Bless

 

[Hussein radi]

This is funny. I learned a lot about christianity in an islamic website.

 

[*charisma*]

Greetings

Hiya charisma
thought I would answer here...instead of the other thread..hope you don't mind

hey no problem, thanks

It was his sacrifice also his blood...blood is life, his blood is the most precious of all because he was the only human ever to walk the earth who was sinless...in the OT God always required blood for the atonement of sins, with pure unblemished calfs, goats..etc...but this atonement never lasted, from the OT we always knew God would send someone who would atone for our sins...plenty of scriptures lead us to that. Jesus' blood covers our sins..just like God told the jews to cover their door posts, so he would not kill their first borns...(passover)

so after jesus pbuh was sacrificed for everyone's sins, everyone who accepts jesus pbuh into their hearts etc etc they shall enter paradise despite how big their sins may be? So can i conclude the purpose for hell is for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord?

We are born in sin...it isn't that a baby is sinful...every baby but one grows up to be sinful...I do not know one person in all my life (literaly) that has not sinned...so all babies grow up sinning...
I asked this on another thread...if what you are saying...
then isnt it wrong to declare someone a sinner right after they were born if you don't know how long they will live? Do you actually know a baby who has grown up and never sinned..
what % of babies do you believe grow up into adults and never sin ever?
They all do.

I'm not asking in respects of adulthood or speaking of future tense, i understand that everyone will grow up to be sinners, but babies themselves (presently) aren't sinners meaning as babies they aren't sinning, like you said they are too young to understand what they are doing so they arent sinning.

No it's Jesus' blood that cleanses us...we are cleansed from sin, as soon as we accept Jesus into our life...the baptizm comes later...depending on each person...

So then, like glo said its just to declare that the child will be brough up as a christian?

Like again I said in another post )...God has no grandchildren...we can't rely on our parents etc to get us into heaven, if they are Christian, that is them...this is us!
Some people go to church every week and never recieve the Spirit of God dwelling inside of them. It can be for all different reasons.

But as christians aren't you supposed to guide others into christianity? so wouldnt the parents' jobs as good christian parents help guide their children to the 'truth'.

Babies have no religion...if you like they get a free pass up until the age, that they are able to know and understand about God and Jesus...and then are able to choose themselves...Christianity can't be forced, you can't be born into it...but as Christian parents...we do plant the seed into their minds...the rest is between God and themselves.

but if they have no religion as you say, if they grow up with hypocritical parents who really don't care about Jesus and the church etc etc. and they dont ever have proper guidance even in the generality of religion itself, will the sins of that child brought up as an ignorant adult (of christianity) be forgiven? Because its hard to tell by just looking at a christian if they are practicing or not, so it's not something that is always observable..

will it be their fault that they haven't learned these vital religious lessons from the parents that were supposed to help guide them?

and what is the purpose of a christian living if all your sins can easily be forgiven, so then would you be dying free of sin if you were a devout christian??

and in christianity is sin repetitive? for example, if porn was forbidden..and a christian published massive porn magazines, in which other christians will sin by looking at them, it would be a sin for eachtime anyone viewed that magazine both for the publisher and the viewer, so how does one repent to be forgiven and for how long?? is there a limit?



thanks again!

peace

 

[Muslim Knight]

So in that sense all are born sinners, even little babies.

Babies and children don't sin, because they are not mature enough to understand their action (as we agreed on). Therefore they will always enter the kingdom of heaven.

These are contradicting statements, are they not?

What about babies that die shortly after birth without being christened?

We Muslims are taught instead that all babies are born in the state of fitrah (pure and sinless). Infants who die at early age, by the Grace of God, are admitted into Paradise.

 

[Nicola]

Greetings


hey no problem, thanks

thanks

so after jesus pbuh was sacrificed for everyone's sins, everyone who accepts jesus pbuh into their hearts etc etc they shall enter paradise despite how big their sins may be? So can i conclude the purpose for hell is for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their Lord?

Yes, to an extent...only God knows whats in our hearts, people can call themselves Christians, but if they are, they will change literally. It is something supernatural that takes place within yourself..

It is very noticable to people who know them well..If they don't begin to start changing they have not really except Jesus into their lives..
When we accept Jesus we repent from our heart of all our past sins...not just Ok I believe in you Jesus..now my sins are forgiven...and a free pass into heaven. No it doesn't work like that..
God knows if it is geniune or not..someone who isn't they will not change at all...still the same sinful nature..and Jesus tells us on Judgement he will turn away those kinds of people...
The person who is born-again spiritually like Jesus tells us will happen...these are the people who are true Christians...they will become christ-like in their ways...all born-again Christians though different characters will all possess the same qualities..always. This is how I can tell a born-again Christian from a person calling themselves a Christian..It is soooooo totally different.

I'm not asking in respects of adulthood or speaking of future tense, i understand that everyone will grow up to be sinners, but babies themselves (presently) aren't sinners meaning as babies they aren't sinning, like you said they are too young to understand what they are doing so they arent sinning.
So then, like glo said its just to declare that the child will be brough up as a christian?

Babies aren't sinners but all babies are born into sin...that is the difference
do you understand what I mean?

But as christians aren't you supposed to guide others into christianity? so wouldnt the parents' jobs as good christian parents help guide their children to the 'truth'.

Yes and born-again Christians do and are supposed to guide others...they are convicted to, by the Holy Spirit which dwells inside of them. But only if you allow it.

but if they have no religion as you say, if they grow up with hypocritical parents who really don't care about Jesus and the church etc etc. and they dont ever have proper guidance even in the generality of religion itself, will the sins of that child brought up as an ignorant adult (of christianity) be forgiven?

What I mean is the Child as he grows up he must decide for himself...it is the parents full responsibity to lead the Child to God and accept Jesus has their Saviour...But even if you do all that...it isn't saying their Child will accept Jesus...they can tell you they have....but if they have again their character will change the oldself dies...

So even after trying all you can to lead your Child to God and accept Jesus..we can do no more besides pray to God and leave everything in his capable hands...I've heard some beautiful testimonies about born again Christians Children, how they rejected Christ..and later on in life (when grown up)...God collars them by the neck..so to speak...lol and they have no choice but to accept. The power is so convicting.

The conviction of the truth is so strong...after this they began to change in character...We cannot change ourselves only the Holy Spirit can do that...no matter how hard we try to be good...it just won't happen.

Because its hard to tell by just looking at a christian if they are practicing or not, so it's not something that is always observable..

Because you aren't a born-again Christian ... no offence, born-again Christians are given the gift of discernment.

will it be their fault that they haven't learned these vital religious lessons from the parents that were supposed to help guide them?

In a born-again Christians family that would never happen...Because of your character changing, the childs life would be one of peace and contentment only never aruging and discord.
The Bible tells us if we hear the gospel and reject it...we are rejecting him who could gave his life for us...even believers all the time question Jesus, we must question and test and are told to. Jesus will show us what is truth and what is not, anything we ask him...he will show us..then if we reject it..that is our own fault, who else can we blame then?...I never came from a born again Christian family..yes my mom and sister believes in God and Jesus..but they are not born-again Christians..and I wasn't even a believer up until 2 years ago.

and what is the purpose of a christian living if all your sins can easily be forgiven, so then would you be dying free of sin if you were a devout christian??

like I said above...only God knows if you have truely repented or are they just words? It is freedom living a true Christian life, it's a new life. Like Jesus tells us, we are born again...not literally...of course..

Once I accepted Jesus into my life...not just saying "OK i believe in Jesus"..but really accepted him and ask him to come into my life and change me..repent my past sinful life..I will start to become christ-like more and more, if I allow it...Jesus will never push himself...because we are given freewill...
When I asked him I meant it..and he is changing me. So yes I would be dying free of sin...
But people who do not mean it, call themselves Christians but never change they will still be dying and not free from sin.

and in christianity is sin repetitive? for example, if porn was forbidden..and a christian published massive porn magazines, in which other christians will sin by looking at them, it would be a sin for eachtime anyone viewed that magazine both for the publisher and the viewer, so how does one repent to be forgiven and for how long?? is there a limit?

No I can't say I've found it that way at all...for example before I became a born again Christian I used to like going out with my non-Christians friends to pubs clubs...not everynight...but I enjoyed that kind of life..I could see no wrong in it...I wasn't hurting anyone at all...
Now Jesus is in my life...I wouldn't even go to a club..not that I couldn't go..not that I think it would upset God, because that would be fear.....It's because I have no desire at all...for my past life.
Your example you gave me.. a born-again Christian would never publish those kind of magazines..again not because it would upset God...but because it has no part in your life at all not interest. And again a born-again Christian would not be interested in even looking at that kind of magazine..
When a born-again Christian sins...they repent straight away...usually the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin, e.g. could be a mean spiteful word to someone, a thought..The Holy Spirit will bring it to your attention.
Once it is repented for and again God knows if you mean it...and being a born-again Christian you would. else you wouldn't be a born-again Christian..
you are forgiven...and you can tell, it's hard to explain but you will sort of recieve a peace that comes over you...well for me anyways...

thanks again!

peace

thank you, you ask some really interesting questions...

God Bless
nic

 

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

I guess in short the Christians dont know that babies will go to hell or not

According to their theology all people's who do not accept their saviour will go too hell..

But not babies....

but they now try to explain using other verses to say it is unknown...

So in short..Chrisitan dont know...

trying to grapple with the notion of a baby whom has done nothing,is dead before first breath...whose innocent is cleary in their faces....they cant bear the thought of all those babies in hell being droned in lakes of fire..or what ever chrisitna think hell is...

Go to google and search for world infant deaths statistics..
In Philiphines,30 000 infant deaths,that is just one country,if we can say that for teh whole entire world the number of infant death is roughly 1 million,that is 1 000 000,babies.......all whom are now in hell being burned by hell fire as christian like to say...

Every year 1million,,,so since the "crucifiction" there has been 2 billion(estimate) infant death,does that make your heart warm?



In Islam it is simple,,,,,babies and young children enter heaven for they are sinless...for they know not what they do

Every person is a clean slate...
Their sin is their own
They will not answer for anyone else...
Nor can anyone else answer for them
Number of people who love him/her does not matter
Number of people who hate him/her does not matter
Man judgement does not matter

you will be judged by your own DEEDS...

 

[glo]

Hi Charisma

Since this thread has moved on, I won't go over 'old ground'.

Can I ask how Islam views this?
I am guessing that all children are seen to be born Muslims and remain so unless they choose to stray from the path? Is that right?

glo

 

[glo]

Hi Zulkiflim

I have the feeling your haven't really read this thread. If you had you would know that Christians don't believe that babies go to hell.
Never mind ...

As for your comment that Christians know nothing, I could take that personally ...
I am here to learn about Islam and to ask questions about it. I endeavour not to talk too much about my own faith unless it is helpful for comparison - and I hope that is agreeable with the ethos of this forum.
This, however, is the comparative religions folder, and charisma asked a specific question about my faith, which I attempted to answer as best I could.

I would like to humbly ask to respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
This being an Islamic forum I don't expect many people to
1. share, or
2. understand, or
3. agree with my beliefs,
but I do expect some respect.

Is that asking too much?

Peace

glo

 

[Nicola]

Zulkiflim;272065]Salaam,

I guess in short the Christians dont know that babies will go to hell or not

According to their theology all people's who do not accept their saviour will go too hell..

We do know...
I'm afraid it is you who do not fully understand yet!

sin is inherited it is passed on from our parents. and our parents, parents until we reach to Adam and Eve...
In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity,

and in sin my mother conceived me." David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner

.

When infants die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.

But not babies....

but they now try to explain using other verses to say it is unknown...

So in short..Chrisitan dont know...

yes again we do know because David tells us so in 2 Samuel 12:21-23

When God told David he would take his child away (in death) because of Davids sins..David wept fasted and prayed to God but once the child had died...look what David now does and says.

2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" They said, "He is dead."
2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.
2Sa 12:21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 2Sa 12:22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

We have complete assurance that babies, infants and Children return to the Lord and one day we will be reunited with them.

trying to grapple with the notion of a baby whom has done nothing,is dead before first breath...whose innocent is cleary in their faces....they cant bear the thought of all those babies in hell being droned in lakes of fire..or what ever chrisitna think hell is...

I think what you confusion is...being born a sinner and born into sin...
is a totally different thing all together, Islam beliefs have totally misunderstood and missed the actual meaning..and cannot see a difference in those two quotes..at all.

Go to google and search for world infant deaths statistics..
In Philiphines,30 000 infant deaths,that is just one country,if we can say that for teh whole entire world the number of infant death is roughly 1 million,that is 1 000 000,babies.......all whom are now in hell being burned by hell fire as christian like to say...

Well above this quote you said Christians want to believe babies are in heaven because we can't bear the thought of them in hell. Now you are saying we believe they are in hell...Which is it?

Every year 1million,,,so since the "crucifiction" there has been 2 billion(estimate) infant death,does that make your heart warm?

and your point is? I know for sure all those infants are with God,

1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' blood was enough to cover the sins of the whole world...that includes everyone who was born after him.

In Islam it is simple,,,,,babies and young children enter heaven for they are sinless...for they know not what they do

and you know that from the Quran? The Bible since the very beginning states exactly Gods position...the fall of mankind concerning sin, blood being used for the atonement of sin all throughout the whole Bible...But now the Quran states very differently, something that God never said before..

Every person is a clean slate...
Their sin is their own
They will not answer for anyone else...
Nor can anyone else answer for them
Number of people who love him/her does not matter
Number of people who hate him/her does not matter
Man judgement does not matter

you will be judged by your own DEEDS...

This position is no different than Gods position in the Bible...
It is because you do not understand the difference between born a sinner and born into sin
Does't the Quran explain the difference? Between the two...or is it you just don't understand it.

 

[*charisma*]

Hey Nicola

Yes, to an extent...only God knows whats in our hearts, people can call themselves Christians, but if they are, they will change literally. It is something supernatural that takes place within yourself..

It is very noticable to people who know them well..If they don't begin to start changing they have not really except Jesus into their lives..
When we accept Jesus we repent from our heart of all our past sins...not just Ok I believe in you Jesus..now my sins are forgiven...and a free pass into heaven. No it doesn't work like that..
God knows if it is geniune or not..someone who isn't they will not change at all...still the same sinful nature..and Jesus tells us on Judgement he will turn away those kinds of people...
The person who is born-again spiritually like Jesus tells us will happen...these are the people who are true Christians...they will become christ-like in their ways...all born-again Christians though different characters will all possess the same qualities..always. This is how I can tell a born-again Christian from a person calling themselves a Christian..It is soooooo totally different.

What are the rulings upon someone who is always changing, meaning one day they would be very religious and other days they aren't, and how does a Christain practice their religion in which is apparent to other people of different faiths or just people individually?

Babies aren't sinners but all babies are born into sin...that is the difference
do you understand what I mean?

to be honest, not really...can you further explain that please?

Yes and born-again Christians do and are supposed to guide others...they are convicted to, by the Holy Spirit which dwells inside of them. But only if you allow it.

ermm..how many times can a christian become a "born-again christian"?

What I mean is the Child as he grows up he must decide for himself...it is the parents full responsibity to lead the Child to God and accept Jesus has their Saviour...But even if you do all that...it isn't saying their Child will accept Jesus...they can tell you they have....but if they have again their character will change the oldself dies...

Yea, but if the parents are not religious in the first place, but do consider themselves as Christian, although they do not enforce the Christian teachings upon their children, when their children are old enough to make their own decisions and they decide to become part of another faith, who would be the one considered sinning? The parents for not teaching their children, or the children for being ignorant of the religion they were supposedly supposed to be brought up into?

So even after trying all you can to lead your Child to God and accept Jesus..we can do no more besides pray to God and leave everything in his capable hands...I've heard some beautiful testimonies about born again Christians Children, how they rejected Christ..and later on in life (when grown up)...God collars them by the neck..so to speak...lol and they have no choice but to accept. The power is so convicting.

agreed.

The conviction of the truth is so strong...after this they began to change in character...We cannot change ourselves only the Holy Spirit can do that...no matter how hard we try to be good...it just won't happen.

Do you mean that no one can change themselves unless it is by the will of the "holy spirit"? i thought you said people can only change if they accept the holy spirit into their lives? or do u still mean that?
also i know some athiests or people of other faiths who are really nice and kind, some even more than those who consider themselves to be religious practicing Christians..I think that if you have something that you believe in very strongly, and you have the determination to change yourself, you will change, and if i were to speak in religious aspects Allah is always there for you to help guide you, but you are always being tested upon how far you are willing to go for Him. So we are putting the change into ourselves because we want to do it for the sake of Allah, and Allah guides those who seek His Guidance...so we do not need the "holy spirit" to keep us striving..it can be as simple as determination, love, etc all for the sake of Allah...

Because you aren't a born-again Christian ... no offence, born-again Christians are given the gift of discernment.

none taken..lol i meant like how do you tell they are religious and stuff while they are out of the church? how is a christian recognizable compared to other christians, I don't mean personality wise, because that i can tell..but i mean physically..through their appearances..

In a born-again Christians family that would never happen...Because of your character changing, the childs life would be one of peace and contentment only never aruging and discord.
The Bible tells us if we hear the gospel and reject it...we are rejecting him who could gave his life for us...even believers all the time question Jesus, we must question and test and are told to. Jesus will show us what is truth and what is not, anything we ask him...he will show us..then if we reject it..that is our own fault, who else can we blame then?...I never came from a born again Christian family..yes my mom and sister believes in God and Jesus..but they are not born-again Christians..and I wasn't even a believer up until 2 years ago.

so born again christians have been forgiven for all their sins, while christians who arent born again havent been forgiven?
like I said above...only God knows if you have truely repented or are they just words? It is freedom living a true Christian life, it's a new life. Like Jesus tells us, we are born again...not literally...of course..

Once I accepted Jesus into my life...not just saying "OK i believe in Jesus"..but really accepted him and ask him to come into my life and change me..repent my past sinful life..I will start to become christ-like more and more, if I allow it...Jesus will never push himself...because we are given freewill...
When I asked him I meant it..and he is changing me. So yes I would be dying free of sin...
But people who do not mean it, call themselves Christians but never change they will still be dying and not free from sin.

What if you died sinning? I mean like lets say you said something bad about a person forgetting you were backbiting cuz as was mentioned before everyone sins cuz we aren't perfect and no matter how hard we try we always do something wrong everyday, would you die with that sin if you didn't have time to repent for it?

Also what are the rulings upon someone who steals if they didn't have food to eat? is that sinning? and what if someone was a terrible person all their life and right before they died, they accepted Jesus into their life and repented for their sinful life the very last minute, but they didn't have time to show that repetence on earth, would they still be forgiven?

No I can't say I've found it that way at all...for example before I became a born again Christian I used to like going out with my non-Christians friends to pubs clubs...not everynight...but I enjoyed that kind of life..I could see no wrong in it...I wasn't hurting anyone at all...
Now Jesus is in my life...I wouldn't even go to a club..not that I couldn't go..not that I think it would upset God, because that would be fear.....It's because I have no desire at all...for my past life.
Your example you gave me.. a born-again Christian would never publish those kind of magazines..again not because it would upset God...but because it has no part in your life at all not interest. And again a born-again Christian would not be interested in even looking at that kind of magazine..
When a born-again Christian sins...they repent straight away...usually the Holy Spirit will convict you of your sin, e.g. could be a mean spiteful word to someone, a thought..The Holy Spirit will bring it to your attention.
Once it is repented for and again God knows if you mean it...and being a born-again Christian you would. else you wouldn't be a born-again Christian..
you are forgiven...and you can tell, it's hard to explain but you will sort of recieve a peace that comes over you...well for me anyways...

what if they were a christian, but then became a born-again christian once they realized what they were doing was wrong..?? are they forgiven completely? how does a Christian know that they have sacrificed enough to God that they are completely forgiven? Do they continue to strive to ask for forgiveness for the same sin, or do they forget it and move on hoping they don't do the same mistake twice?

sorry for all the questions, I'm really trying to learn more about Christianity and understand it since much of it confuses me..so thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions despite how weird they are lol..

peace

 

[*charisma*]

Hi glo

Since this thread has moved on, I won't go over 'old ground'.

Can I ask how Islam views this?

ofcoarse

I am guessing that all children are seen to be born Muslims and remain so unless they choose to stray from the path? Is that right?

yes, all newborns are born sinless and as muslims and they remain muslims until their parents change them..e.g. they get baptized into christianity..but they will remain sinless until the age of puberty i believe, the age where they are old enough to make their own decisions for themselves.

glo

 

[Zulkiflim]

Hi Zulkiflim

I have the feeling your haven't really read this thread. If you had you would know that Christians don't believe that babies go to hell.
Never mind ...

As for your comment that Christians know nothing, I could take that personally ...
I am here to learn about Islam and to ask questions about it. I endeavour not to talk too much about my own faith unless it is helpful for comparison - and I hope that is agreeable with the ethos of this forum.
This, however, is the comparative religions folder, and charisma asked a specific question about my faith, which I attempted to answer as best I could.

I would like to humbly ask to respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
This being an Islamic forum I don't expect many people to
1. share, or
2. understand, or
3. agree with my beliefs,
but I do expect some respect.

Is that asking too much?

Peace

glo

Salaam,

Well when i say Christian dont know...the actual line was Christian dont know if babies will go to heaven or hell..

Not Chrisitan dont know..period ..about anything..LOLOL

I am unsure why you are offended,if you are then you feel it not at my insitgation..

 

[Zulkiflim]

We do know...
I'm afraid it is you who do not fully understand yet!

sin is inherited it is passed on from our parents. and our parents, parents until we reach to Adam and Eve...
In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity, .

When infants die demonstrates that even infants are impacted by Adam’s sin, since physical and spiritual death were the results of Adam's original sin.






yes again we do know because David tells us so in 2 Samuel 12:21-23

When God told David he would take his child away (in death) because of Davids sins..David wept fasted and prayed to God but once the child had died...look what David now does and says.


We have complete assurance that babies, infants and Children return to the Lord and one day we will be reunited with them.






I think what you confusion is...being born a sinner and born into sin...
is a totally different thing all together, Islam beliefs have totally misunderstood and missed the actual meaning..and cannot see a difference in those two quotes..at all.




Well above this quote you said Christians want to believe babies are in heaven because we can't bear the thought of them in hell. Now you are saying we believe they are in hell...Which is it?






and your point is? I know for sure all those infants are with God,

1John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' blood was enough to cover the sins of the whole world...that includes everyone who was born after him.



and you know that from the Quran? The Bible since the very beginning states exactly Gods position...the fall of mankind concerning sin, blood being used for the atonement of sin all throughout the whole Bible...But now the Quran states very differently, something that God never said before..




This position is no different than Gods position in the Bible...
It is because you do not understand the difference between born a sinner and born into sin
Does't the Quran explain the difference? Between the two...or is it you just don't understand it.

Heya

Despite all your word and convictions it is clear you still dont know..

You pasted some OT from David but there are no verses wihin that sya that the baby is in heaven ...just that david will go the baby go to the baby not the baby return to david...that's all...

When i say Chrisitan are confused for their reliogn is supposedly about LOVE and thus cannot comprehend that their "LOVELY" god would send babies to hell.....It is a repugnant thought even to those who say ALL are SINFUL or born into sin...

Thus as in many thing you would create "Explanation's" and "lines" to porve that babies do go to heaven despite the thoguht that all are sinful...

And finally as you say,people who accept willingly Jesus is saved,but abbies that die DO NOT ACCEPT Jesus coherently..thus you create a gulf between the 2 understanding...

And no i dont understand the difference between born in sin and born a sinner..

Can you explain both clearly.....logically..thanks,and you can take any verses in the bible and mix them up to suit your needs...

 

[nimrod]

Hello Charisma (Nice user name btw). You have hit upon an aspect of the Christian faith that may share quite a bit common ground with Islam. I am not sure how much it gets discussed in Islamic circles, but it gets a lot of air time among Christians.

At least one aspect of being “Born in Sin” can be seen in this respect. Before Adam and Eve sinned they weren’t subject to growing old and dieing. They would still be alive today had they not sinned. The forbidden fruit/sin changed their body physically so that it could wear out and quit.

As a side note, one thing you will notice in reading Genesis is that at first God gave a vegetarian diet as lawful. It wasn’t till after Noah’s flood that animals were lawful to eat.
During the time before the flood it seems Adams decedents ate more and more meat. The more meat they ate the shorter their lifespan became. Eating meat involves killing animals, innocent animals. It is kind of ironic that the more man killed innocent beings, the shorter his lifespan became.
A long lifespan went from 900+ years, pre-flood to 120 years post-flood.

The second aspect of sin that we see is, the way Adam and Eve viewed their bodies and also how God views people running around in their birthday suits. Before they sinned Adam and Eve ran around naked and never knew any different. God took no, noticeable, notice of that.
After they sinned they were ashamed of being without clothes and we also see God himself provided covering for them. (As a side note, this is the first recording of killing a living breathing creature recorded in the Bible) God gave them animal skins to replace the plant leaves they had covered themselves with.

Instructions given later in the Bible are very specific in regard to letting private parts show, look at the instructions given to Aaron concerning under garments.

So we see that not only were Adam and Eve and all their off-spring changed physically, but also in regards as to how God viewed them as well as how the descendents viewed themselves.

The eating of the forbidden fruit/sin not only introduced the knowledge of free-will to man’s (Adam) and his descendents, but it also caused changes to his body. Those changes have been handed down generation to generation all the way up to today and the future off spring.

The one certain thing in this life, till the Rapture anyway, is Death. Death didn’t always exist for mankind. It entered by one man and it was defeated by one man.

Death is an important subject to ponder in how God views dead things. Dead things are considered “un-clean” or “un-Holy”. God sees things not only as they are but also as they well be. God sees man as dead, or un-clean, or un-Holy.

That nature of man has been handed down through the ages. Thus babies are born into certain death. They have been born to one day become un-clean, un-Holy things, dead things. Therefore babies are “born in sin”, “Free to chose what God didn’t intend”-Free-Will”.

The question then becomes, what is God’s reaction to the “sin” the babies are born into? We see from scripture that God no longer punishes the children for the father’s sins. We can derive from scripture that God views newborns as innocent. That brings us to what is called “the age of accountability”, the age that we start becoming responsible for our words and deeds.

Different faiths choose slightly different ages of “the age of account ability” but generally it begins when puberty on sets. The Bible is not clear on a given age. I think that is the most correct way to handle it as well, not because I happen to be a Christian but because different people develop at different rates. I have seen grown men that were mentally deficient that hit puberty long time ago, yet they can’t be viewed as responsible, conversely I have seen very young men that seemed wise beyond their years.

There are some children that have become so corrupt, that by the time they hit the “age of accountability” they are already forever lost.

Their names have never been recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

The Bible tells us that ALL will be judged by what we say and do. The fellow living in the jungle will be judged by what he said and did, as well as the priest will being judged by what he said and did.

Each will be judged Justly and Fairly. Living in a jungle will be no excuse, nor will living in a Church or a Mosque be an excuse.

Charisma, today has been a long day, we have divers at the plant this week removing plating on the intake screens. Long hours out in the hot sun, I kind of feel like I have glazed over a lot in this reply and also got side tracked a bit.

Post back about anything you are still wondering about concerning a Christian perspective on your topic and I will try to get back to this.

BTW you have already recieved some very good replies, I enjoyed them myself.

Thanks
Nimrod

 

[extinction]

This is funny. I learned a lot about christianity in an islamic website.

YEAH same here.??? whats going on..lol