Back From Iraq

[barney]

Hahah you the funniest jedi i have seen.To go to another man's country and take it by force and to kill anyone that you may wish and to capture them and imprison them in their own country while forcing them to act homesexual acts out of will and to rub faeces on their faces and bodies is this humanitarian to you do you know what it means?,you cannot argue you simply cannot simliar techniques of punishment and torture were stated by the american government publicly that they will use it in guantanamo bay.

How many muslims were held in captivity and force fed to keep them alive by Americans on September the tenth 2001 by the Yanks?
How many Muslims were Tortured to death by Muslims on the same date? And indeed since?

A nice topic of research there for you.

 

[Cabdullahi]

i dont need to do any research i dont need to prove anything everything is there if you think what the american soldiers are doing is heroic thats fine

 

[barney]

well just a day ago, on Sept 9th eight people were killed in southern Iraq when British and American planes enforced the no-fly zone by bombing civilian areas.

I see. Thanks for the Info. Can you link that news item and that.

1) The dead were not AIF?
2) The RAF were firing at a civilain target.

 

[Cabdullahi]

I see. Thanks for the Info. Can you link that news item and that.

1) The dead were not AIF?
2) The RAF were firing at a civilain target.

huh?

 

[barney]

i dont need to do any research i dont need to prove anything everything is there if you think what the american soldiers are doing is heroic thats fine

Entirely as you wish, Reality is a matter of choice in responding to advice.

 

[snakelegs]

The American GIs in Iraq are not the enemy, they too are victims and are little more than teenagers that were fed lies. For most they honestly believe they were sent to help the Iraqi people.

i couldn't agree more.

The problem now is there are 100,000 young American kids in Iraq. How do we get them safetly out of Iraq?

and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.

 

[Woodrow]

and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.

The scars can't be healed. But a compensation of sort can be made, through acknowledgement by those who fed the errors and falsehoods to them. Give them the chance to know they were mislead and were used as pawns in a very cruel game of chess.

 

[Air Jordan]

.....you cannot argue you simply cannot simliar techniques of punishment and torture were stated by the american government publicly that they will use it in guantanamo bay.

I am not sure what you are on about there. Is it the waterboarding thing? Waterboarding was never used at G'itmo. It was used, apparently, three times by the CIA in Central Asia or Eastern Europe. It was always forbidden by the militray. It is now forbidden to the CIA as well.

On your larger point I will have to concede. I tried my best but the mountain of evidence arrayed against me and your rhetorical skill have taken a toll on my will to continue.

Simply stated, the US military is the focus of evil in the modern world. Everyone knows that where you live, eh?

The more interesting question is whether they are inherently evil or are they just following orders. The prevailing opinion seems to be they are inherently so, which is quite attractive as it allows you to generalize about all Americans and, even better, argue we are that way because of our failure to embrace Islam. The problem with that, of course, is that it lets their leaders off the hook. Quite a dilemma, eh?

 

[YusufNoor]

and how do we heal them of their emotional scars.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:

After learning that more than 17 veterans per month commit suicide while under the care of the Veterans Affairs Department, senators accused VA of withholding information about suicide rates and demanded the removal of its mental health chief.

those numbers add up, BUT further down:

Murray, who clenched her jaw and seemed to shake with anger during the discussion, said she is tired of spending “every day for five-and-a-half years” trying to drag information out of VA.

She said a study showed 6,250 veterans killed themselves in 2005 — and in his e-mails, Katz “not only backed up those numbers, but said they were much higher.”

those numbers just have to be wrong, don't they?

“I’m very upset,” Murray said. “In VA, everyone knew it was higher and there are e-mails showing us that. How do we trust what you’re saying ... if what you’re saying publicly is different from what you’ve said privately? How do we trust what you’re saying today?”

source:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/04/military_suicides_042308w/

i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.

and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...

i must admit, i didn't read the earlier posted rebuttal, it was presented by Michelle Malkin of FOX news:

MICHELLE MALKIN, GUEST HOST: In the "Unresolved Problem" segment tonight, the Kansas City airport under fire for reportedly building foot-washing basins for Muslim cab drivers, who have to wash their feet before prayer.

Here's how Investors Business Daily sees the situation: "You would think 9/11 would have marginalized militant Muslims, but it's only emboldened them. Now they're demanding foot baths in restrooms and getting them. What's next, prayer rug cleaning, box cutter dispensers?"

MALKIN: Because we go from foot basins for Muslim cabbies at the Kansas City airport to cabbies in Minneapolis saying that they're not going to be shepherding around passengers just because they have wine or they're blind or they have dogs, to target saying that their own employees are not going to be handling pork.

+o(

source:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270478,00.html

 

[Air Jordan]

....i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:.

Hmmmm? <antennae go up>


.

i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.

Yes, I noticed that too. Strange, it was almost as if the producers selectively edited the many hundreds of interviews they must have conducted to purposely convey that notion. Nah...that would never happen on PBS, would it? A PBS producer would never purposely tilt his production to court favor with the network or the overwhelmingly liberal contributors to the network? Nah..probably just my paranoia creeping in.

I saw only two officers interviewed, the skipper who was unerringly upbeat of course and only a single pilot, who expressed some reservations about the mission but admitted it was his duty to follow orders. In fact, there was a brief montage of the gung ho types. They were purposely mocked for using the same cliches. As the flight crews, in the current conflict, are the ones most overwhelmingly likely to see combat, if you are to draw any inferences about support for the mission, you might want to talk to them. If you don't know any, don't fret, I know one who was captured by the enemy, held captive for 5 1/2 years and tortured (real torture). If anyone is down on the mission it ought to be him, eh?

and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...

What do you mean by that, sir?

 

[Air Jordan]

Oh, I almsot forgot. That former Navy pilot I was talking about...he is running for President.

 

[YusufNoor]

Hmmmm? <antennae go up>


.

Yes, I noticed that too. Strange, it was almost as if the producers selectively edited the many hundreds of interviews they must have conducted to purposely convey that notion. Nah...that would never happen on PBS, would it? A PBS producer would never purposely tilt his production to court favor with the network or the overwhelmingly liberal contributors to the network? Nah..probably just my paranoia creeping in.

a bit odd there weren't "called upon" to drop any ordinance

I saw only two officers interviewed, the skipper who was unerringly upbeat of course and only a single pilot, who expressed some reservations about the mission but admitted it was his duty to follow orders. In fact, there was a brief montage of the gung ho types. They were purposely mocked for using the same cliches. As the flight crews, in the current conflict, are the ones most overwhelmingly likely to see combat, if you are to draw any inferences about support for the mission, you might want to talk to them.
If you don't know any, don't fret, I know one who was captured by the enemy, held captive for 5 1/2 years and tortured (real torture). If anyone is down on the mission it ought to be him, eh?



What do you mean by that, sir?

you're new here, you'll see...

you sure McCain was only held for 5 years? methinks it was a wee bit longer. and he stayed when he could have left. sad to see him tarnishing a good reputation...

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Ok because you are an american you obviously know more about these things but what if those who signed up with the view only to help the country against invasion and help the innocent... Snip

The good principles that we saw in our armed forces during WW2 are being portrayed and to a very young audience. So, I agree that, when the soldiers are confronted with the reality of a war that does not bear the same principles they were shown in the recruitment media, they get hit with a serious conflict of interests... but at a time when it is too late for them to act. Once you sign, you're owned by them and you have to obey orders or face charges. To make matters worse, the soldiers have learned that, even though they are lagally required to uphold their part of the contract, the government is not legally required to uphold it's part... as seen by the Stop Loss program that hijacked so many who wanted nothing more than to exit.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

take heart! president bush has made a Sacrifice in honour of the dead soldiers: he has given up golf!!!!!!!! i imagine this is a great comfort to the grieving families.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/14/usa.uselections2008?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

OMG! I missed this = thanks. Well, if he's giving up golf which he wasn't very good at to begin with, then he should give up being president because he isn't very good at that either. :-[

Th Ninth Scribe

 

[snakelegs]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i was wondering if i could find a safe place to post this:



those numbers add up, BUT further down:



source:

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/04/military_suicides_042308w/

i was also surprised at the attitude of alot of the sailors on the USS Nimitz in the PBS series Carrier, who disagreed with the US position on Iraq. it seems that pretty soon our mental health serves in this country will soon be overwhelmed by these poor kids.

and worse than that, there will be some here who will cheer at this news...

during the vietnam war, peace activists often made the mistake of blaming the soldiers - in fact some of them even got spat on when they returned. (and they didn't have a choice - service was compulsory then.)
hopefully, now there is more awareness that these guys (and women) are not the enemy, but as woodrow said below, pawns in a game that is not theirs. yes there is no draft now, but ignorance and hope for a better future is often the motivation, not to mention the criminals who are offered military service instead of jail.
the testimony of the returning vets from vietnam did a lot to turn the country against the war. and now those returning from iraq are speaking out (see the link i gave earlier).
the way we treat the soldiers both on duty and after they come back is shameful.

 

[Air Jordan]

The good principles that we saw in our armed forces during WW2 are being portrayed and to a very young audience. So, I agree that, when the soldiers are confronted with the reality of a war that does not bear the same principles they were shown in the recruitment media, they get hit with a serious conflict of interests... but at a time when it is too late for them to act. Once you sign, you're owned by them and you have to obey orders or face charges. To make matters worse, the soldiers have learned that, even though they are lagally required to uphold their part of the contract, the government is not legally required to uphold it's part... as seen by the Stop Loss program that hijacked so many who wanted nothing more than to exit.

Ninth Scribe

The scale of death among civilians in WWII was at least 40-50 x what it has been in Iraq...and that is with AQI deliberately targeting civilians. I am quite certain you would be complaining about the bombing campaign over Japan or Germany were the internet available then.

I do tend to agree with you on the Stop Loss program. That has to be cold slap in the face to some.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

The scale of death among civilians in WWII was at least 40-50 x what it has been in Iraq...and that is with AQI deliberately targeting civilians. I am quite certain you would be complaining about the bombing campaign over Japan or Germany were the internet available then.

I do tend to agree with you on the Stop Loss program. That has to be cold slap in the face to some.

Well, I've never been a big fan of warfare, so you're probably right about that. Although, I don't know about Hitler... I think I would have approved of that war. Stop Loss has ruined the trust of many Americans. Not just the soldiers, but their families too.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

during the vietnam war, peace activists often made the mistake of blaming the soldiers - in fact some of them even got spat on when they returned.

Yes, my uncle George was one of them (soldier) which is one reason why I don't blame the soldiers, they're not the ones who declared war. They're just the ones who get stuck fighting it. Sigh.