Bible Fake?

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The Bible is not a single book. Never has been. Rather, it is a collection of many different books, composed over an extended period of time, by the hand of many different (inspired, I believe) human authors. As such, the collection known today as the Bible is not what it originally was, nor would I want it to be, for then it would not contain the full revelation of God.

I'm not so much worried about those who question if the Bible has ever changed -- of course it has. I'm much more concerned about the question as to why we consider the canon of scripture closed and no longer open to change. After all, doesn't God continue to reveal himself to us, even to this day. Why then has the Church declared that there no more to be added to the Bible? And just quoting Revelation 22:18-19 is not good enough, for that line refers only to the book of Revelation, not the whole of scripture.

Interesting thoughts, Grace Seeker. I would love to hear your own views on this - publicly or privately, whichever seems best.

I agree that God reveals himself to us today - to 'big' influential people as well as to 'little' people who may never change the course of history.
Presumably God's revelations would always sit clearly within the teaching of the Bible as we know it?
I am asking, because it could be argued (indeed it has been argued in this very forum) that the NT teachings, even Jesus' own teachings, seemed sometimes clearly at odds with the teaching of the OT ... and yet Christians continue to believe it to be the Word of God.

I am reminded of the three elements of the Episcopal Church - Scripture, Tradition and Reason - which always allows for the expression of a new understanding of the old through the introduction of the new.
What do you think?

Sorry, Glo, I don't really have any deep thoughts in this area.

Now you are disappointing me, Grace! :D


Alas! We can't have you so disappointed. So, let's investigate it. And as we are talking about a decision of the Church I'm going to begin our investigation with the early church, prior to any NT writings.

We don't know near as much about them as we would like, but we do know some things. And chief among those things we know the basic message of the apostolic Church. If the accounting in the book of Acts is to believed, the early church was heavily influenced by the teaching of the apostles. And what was their message? Well, despite deference to those who think the place to find the content of the apostles' teaching is in the Qur'an, I suggest we look at the record of their sermons and other Christian literature of that day. When we do this, we find frequent references to the death and resurrection of Jesus. One might presume that those sermons which later appeared in the book of Acts were recorded by Luke as representative of typical gospel preaching of that period of time. That assertions of the resurrection should be particularly frequent and emphatic is understandable given that so many of the first sermons of the Church were delivered in Jerusalem, outside whose very gates Jesus had been crucified. The testimony of Jesus' resurrection not only was testimony that Jewish authorities had no power over neither Jesus nor his message, but was vindication of Jesus and the disciples and a judgment on the wrongfulness of those who had rejected Jesus and conspired to accomplish or condoned Jesus' death. The first message then is that God had given Jesus a decisive vindication.

Yet, Peter's references to the manner of Jesus' death -- "whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree" (Acts 5:30) and "they killed him by hanging him on a tree" (Acts 10:39) -- would immediately bring to mind the judgment "anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse" (Deuteronomy 21:23). Surely Peter knew this. So, why would he have been so explicit? What is the significance of mentiong that Jesus died on a "tree"?

Peter himself gives us the answer in his later writing:
1 Peter 2

23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Peter interprets the cross in terms of sin-bearing. Note also the allusion to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Peter sees in the cross (and Paul would later follow him in this interpretation) the divine purpose of atonement. Post-resurrection, Peter takes ideas that were once abhorent to him -- the idea that the Messiah would have to suffer (see Mark 8:29-32) -- and proclaims that in them is the answer to the problem of sin, evil, and the human condition. Jesus' death become the archtype of the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. What it sought to do -- provide forgiveness and reconcilition -- was now not only accomplished but accomplished for all people in the events of Jesus' life.

The message of God's will for humanity, his chosing of a people and desire for them to life out a covenantal relationship with God faithfully is the essence of the story of the Old Testament. The failure of that covenant (on the people's not on God's part) and the institution of a new that was successful and could be applied to reconcile any who would enter into it is the message of the New Testament whether one is reading from the Gospels, the letters, or the apocalypse. The purpose of the Church is to continue to tell that story and invite people to live in this newly available reconciled relationship. As the writings of the OT and NT as the church has and uses them in the 4th century are all that is necessary for telling that story and wholly sufficient to that purpose, there is no need to add to it. And so the canon, the standard of what is necessary and sufficient for faith and practice, can be closed. Much more valuable inspiration might come to us from God. But the scriptures as they exist already contain all that is needed and are entirely sufficient to the task of communicating the activity of God who seeks to reconcile us to himself and, as a corrollary to that, with one another.
 
:sl:
I have three english translations of the Qu'ran that I have been reading. For me, the best is the one by Muhammad Asad. I love that book (The Message of The Quran). :bravo:
I managed to pick it up from the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).

It has the Arabic text, a transliteration of the Arabic text, an English interpretation and extensive footnotes and commentary.

It far surpasses anything else I have seen.

:wa:

Thank you for the advice.
Troy
 
Peace Troy,

Just thinking back to my old Catholic days in the 1940s. At that time we were forbidden to read the KJV and it as considered a sin, to do so. I was in the Diocise of Hartford and that was the ruling by the Bishop. I seem to recall Cardinal Spelman also had that view. The Mass was in Latin in those good old days and the Bible of Choice was the Latin Vulgate. Although the Douay Rheims was acceptable for home use, it was not preferred or encouraged

As for the English translation of the Qur'an. We do not consider any Translation to be the Qur'an. However a rough idea of the Qur'an can be found in the Translations by Pickthal and Ali. I tell people to read at least 2 different translations. A good 2 would be Ali and Moshin. When using the translations it is also good to have a Tafsir to read along with it. Ali has some good commentaries but they are not Tafsir and should not be considered to be agreed upon by all scholars.

All translations of the Qur'an are inaccurate and contain some error. However by reading several translations you can get a reasonable approximation of the Qur'an. but, it can not be fully understood except in Arabic.

Thank you for your answer. I do understand that the Qu'ran can only be truly read in the language that it was given. This would seem to be an area where if one were not a native speaker of Arabic they would depend upon the local Muslim community for help in the meanings of the verses. Which brings up another point. In non-Arabic speaking nations of the west how is Arabic fluency passed on? I'm not a spring chicken 42 and learning a whole new language is a wee bit intimidating. Also could you elaberate on the Tafsir??

Thank you in advance for helping with this.
Troy
 
Thank you for your answer. I do understand that the Qu'ran can only be truly read in the language that it was given. This would seem to be an area where if one were not a native speaker of Arabic they would depend upon the local Muslim community for help in the meanings of the verses. Which brings up another point. In non-Arabic speaking nations of the west how is Arabic fluency passed on? I'm not a spring chicken 42 and learning a whole new language is a wee bit intimidating. Also could you elaberate on the Tafsir??

Thank you in advance for helping with this.
Troy

Peace Seeker,

Tafsir can best be described as being a commentary or explanation of Qur'an. To be considered Tasir it must be written by a person well schooled in Qur'anic studies, is verified by other scholars and is as free from personal opinion as possible. There are some books of Tafsir written in English. They are good for a non-Arabic Speaker to have as a companion book when reading an English translation.

I will try to find some accepted sources for Tafsir in English. It may take me some time as I will not have much time on the internet for the next day or 2.
 
Uthmān;1248753 said:
Tafeer ibn Katheer is considered to be one of the best. It has been translated into English and can be found online here: http://qtafsir.com/

:wa:

That is an excellent choice. You are fast. I believe that will be exactly what Troy is looking for
 
And so the canon, the standard of what is necessary and sufficient for faith and practice, can be closed. Much more valuable inspiration might come to us from God. But the scriptures as they exist already contain all that is needed and are entirely sufficient to the task of communicating the activity of God who seeks to reconcile us to himself and, as a corollary to that, with one another.
That's very powerful, Grace.
Thank you for your lengthy and informative post.

I was quite prepared to forgive you for not contributing to my earlier question, you know ... ;D
 

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