Both sides suffer .. who is the victim?

[wilberhum]

I was thinking last night. I know that is unusual, but I do that once and a while.
So I said to my self, “Self, aren’t all borders set by war?”
After great thought, I came up with one continent where the borders were not set by war.
Australia. There they took the entire continent.

The next question I ask was “Where is there fighting to change the borders?”
I would only come up with two, Palestine and Kashmir.

So then I ask my self, “Do they have anything in common?”
I could think of two.
Both conflicts were set into motion by the UN creating countries.
Both conflicts involve Muslims.

But there was one difference that I thought was quite interesting.
When Pakistan was created by taking Indian land, it was good, in fact it was so good they wanted more and the fight for Kashmir started.
When Israel was created by taking Palestinian land, it was evil, in fact it was so evil that wars were started to destroy it.

After the wars to destroy the evil empire were lost by the aggressors, guess what,
There were new borders. Kind of the same result that has occurred in every war.

Since it seams that the majority on this forum thinks the solution to this is more war,
I suggest that every country in the world goes to war with any neighbor that has ever taken any of there territory. Then we could truly have a world war.

But then I thought, maybe that isn’t such a good idea.
How come most of you can’t figure this out?

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted

No disrespect intended, but this has to be the most moronic statement, I've ever read by a non-Muslim.

The conflict revolves around the theft of Arab land by the Jews.

It revolves around 5 wars out of 7, that were started by the Jews (1948, 56, 67, 82, and the destruction of Lebanon by Israel last summer).

It revolves around the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people by the Jews.

Throughout Christendom's history, Jews have been persecuted by Christians, and have sought refuge in the Islamic World...

 

[Amadeus85]

/Peace To All



I would like to point out the following:

Compare how many Palestinian children who were saved by Jews, To those Palestinian children who have been deliberately targeted for murder and in what is euphemistcally termed as "Collateral Damage," by Jews...

I asked this question because i wondered if the same women who often send their own children for death, to become shaheeds, would they rescue a jewish child.

 

[noodles]

But then I thought, maybe that isn’t such a good idea.
How come most of you can’t figure this out?

Because a lot of individuals (wrinkled and wrinkle-free, Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) come here to understand other's viewpoints. However, they get so engrossed in these arguments that they feel it is incumbent on them to prove to the opposition they their viewpoint is correct and their enemies, false.

Sadly, I've noticed a gradual change in the manner people address others (once again Muslims & Non-Muslims)

As far as agreeing with what other's say, it'll never happen. Sure once in a while people would be civil and consider what the opposition has to say, but changing their views on the subject matter sounds very far-fetched. It's possible, but highly unlikely.

World affairs, in a literal sense (not this part of the forum, but the reality), is being controlled by wrinkly old men who have little consideration for what the youth want. That isn't to say that "all" wrinkly old men are inconsiderate or immoral, because it isn't so, nor is it proper to say that leaving thing's in youth's hands is proper either because they must be taught. Somewhere along those lines there are people who are concerned about their future, but their voice are unheard of in the general stance of media. I'm sure it will only get worse.

Anyway, my little rant seems a little off topic, because I'm... 'off'-topic

BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS

P.S My reasons for visiting this part of the section are not to be discussed, because my noodle is a little off today.

 

[- Qatada -]

I asked this question because i wondered if the same women who often send their own children for death, to become shaheeds, would they rescue a jewish child.

I think you'll realise that christian 'martyrs' are praised also, and anyone who sends their son/daughter off to war does so and takes pride in that. Even if they're not doing it for God's cause, but for a colored flag only.

 

[wilberhum]

I think you'll realise that christian 'martyrs' are praised also, and anyone who sends their son/daughter off to war does so and takes pride in that. Even if they're not doing it for God's cause, but for a colored flag only.

I see no compairson. Christian Martyrs gave up there life before they would give up there god. Not quite the same as someone who kills himself to blow up a bus load of kids for god.

 

[- Qatada -]

I see no compairson. Christian Martyrs gave up there life before they would give up there god. Not quite the same as someone who kills himself to blow up a bus load of kids for god.

The final Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

[In the Context of War:]

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]



In the final testament of God, in the Qur'an, God/Allaah the Most Merciful says:

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]




​

I've had this discussion with Aaron before, and in the OT - it has loads of verses which allows the killing of children and women, so in reality - the argument backfires.



Regards.

 

[snakelegs]

why are we playing "who's the biggest victim" games here?
war is hell. real people suffer and die. children cry and scream, blood is shed.

 

[Amadeus85]

I think you'll realise that christian 'martyrs' are praised also, and anyone who sends their son/daughter off to war does so and takes pride in that. Even if they're not doing it for God's cause, but for a colored flag only.

The difference is that while christian martyrs are being killed for their faith, palestinian shaheeds blow up themselves in crowds of innocent people. It is quite a difference.

 

[- Qatada -]

The difference is that while christian martyrs are being killed for their faith, palestinian shaheeds blow up themselves in crowds of innocent people. It is quite a difference.

And who said they're doing the right thing if they're killing innocents?


If we're going to use what we see in history or on the media, then it's really really easy to use the Crusaders as a central discussion point. That's why i prefer the religious text to the actions of some followers.



Regards.

 

[wilberhum]

in the OT - it has loads of verses which allows the killing of children and women, so in reality - the argument backfires.

My arguement does not fail. Every religion contains an element of evil.

 

[Zman]

I asked this question because i wondered if the same women who often send their own children for death, to become shaheeds, would they rescue a jewish child.

The dead of Masada are considered martyrs by the Jewish people, correct?

They committed mass suicide, and in many cases, fathers and mothers slit the throats of their own children (they sent their own children to their deaths).

Why are they so honored, and not condemned and villified?

The current Russian Army has a Unit composed of Warrior-Priests, in order to become martyrs in combat (I saw that episode on the History Channel). They are doing that for Orthodoxy and aren't condemned nor villified.

 

[- Qatada -]

My arguement does not fail. Every religion contains an element of evil.

You'll have to define evil.

 

[Amadeus85]

The final Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

[In the Context of War:]

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]



In the final testament of God, in the Qur'an, God/Allaah the Most Merciful says:

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]




​

I've had this discussion with Aaron before, and in the OT - it has loads of verses which allows the killing of children and women, so in reality - the argument backfires.



Regards.

I dont understand why you show me those verses. We talk about reality , about war here and now.
You want to show me that Islam forbids killing innocent people, and Judaism allows doing it in war.
But dear brother, in reality how many are there jewish terrorists in Israel and how many are there muslim terrorists in palestinian territories?
It seems that both Jews and Arabs simply dont read or understand their holy scriptures.
I will now put a conclusion of my views.
I know that this is a bloody conflict, and palestinians suffer.i know that many of them lost houses and relatives.But if Palestinians had honour and high moral standards they would not attack civilians in Israel. Is this so hard to understand for you?
Believe me, many people in diferent places of world, suffered more than Palestinians and lived in worse situations, but they somehow had enough honour and morality not to use terrorism and not to attack deliberately civilians.
When Israeli soldier kills a palestinian civilian it also makes me sick and i want him to face the war tribunal. I condemn such act.
But so many muslims (too scary maybe?) dont condemn Hamas terrorists, but also justify them and praise them.
And it makes me sick.
But maybe our cultures and civilizations differ to much, so you may never understand my point of view.

 

[wilberhum]

You'll have to define evil.

EVIL 1. morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong

 

[noodles]

My arguement does not fail. Every religion contains an element of evil.

I'm straying off-topic. You note that religion contains evil and thus making it's followers evil. So does this mean that a lack of religion mean you are free of accusations that you are evil?

Islamic belief has taught me what is proper and improper, and it differs greatly from many other religions present today, and it also differs for what 'your' opinion of what is proper and improper is and thus you haven't a right to call elements of another religion evil.

 

[Amadeus85]

And who said they're doing the right thing if they're killing innocents?






Regards.

And how many muslims support Hamas, Hesbullah, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Brigades? Those groups actually kill innocents.

 

[- Qatada -]

I dont understand why you show me those verses. We talk about reality , about war here and now.
You want to show me that Islam forbids killing innocent people, and Judaism allows doing it in war.

But dear brother, in reality how many are there jewish terrorists in Israel and how many are there muslim terrorists in palestinian territories?
It seems that both Jews and Arabs simply dont read or understand their holy scriptures.


I will now put a conclusion of my views.
I know that this is a bloody conflict, and palestinians suffer.i know that many of them lost houses and relatives.But if Palestinians had honour and high moral standards they would not attack civilians in Israel. Is this so hard to understand for you?

Believe me, many people in diferent places of world, suffered more than Palestinians and lived in worse situations, but they somehow had enough honour and morality not to use terrorism and not to attack deliberately civilians.

When Israeli soldier kills a palestinian civilian it also makes me sick and i want him to face the war tribunal. I condemn such act.
But so many muslims (too scary maybe?) dont condemn Hamas terrorists, but also justify them and praise them.
And it makes me sick.

But maybe our cultures and civilizations differ to much, so you may never understand my point of view.

It depends on who you define as a terrorist, and it depends on who you call a 'freedom fighter.' You may feel that it's the muslims who are the terrorists, fighting for their land, but how can i say that the Jews [who have them verses which we quoted earlier] aren't terrorists when their own religious texts encourage them acts?

Do you think if a religious text allowed you to do something, you would disagree with it? Or would you think that your religious text is truth, acceptable in the sight of God - so you will go ahead with it? Now if these people have texts which allow the killing of women, children ruthlessly, then should i really say that these are peaceful people?


Yes you may say that the actions of the Palestinian Muslims are un-Islamic if they harm innocents, but atleast they may feel guilty for going against the commandments of their religious texts. Whereas the Jews will feel proud for killing innocents since it's encouraged in their texts, and they may feel that they are pleasing God Almighty for the evil acts that they do.


I hope you understand what i mean.

 

[- Qatada -]

And how many muslims support Hamas, Hesbullah, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Brigades? Those groups actually kill innocents.

If ANY of these groups are doing acts which go against the Qur'an or the Sunnah, then we stick to the Qur'an and Sunnah [Prophetic way] over what other humans do. Since divine guidance is the truth, and anyone who contradicts that isn't doing the right thing. Therefore if any group goes against what God and His Messenger say - then we condemn them acts.

 

[wilberhum]

you haven't a right to call elements of another religion evil.

You would be hard pressed to find many agnostics that would agree with that.
You would be hard pressed to find any atheists that would agree with that.

Oh I for forgot, no god, no morals.