Brother Fawad

[fawad]

Re: Hi

Yes that is the difference because God is nowhere part of His creations, therefore there's nothing about transferring to different forms. Creation is governed by laws, but God isn't, which is also another difference.

The problem here is that people like yourselves want to put God at the level of experimentation, under your rule, under your fingertips, which will hardly ever happen.

We aren't going anywhere but round and round. I dodn't want to preach or convince people here but just get their idea of why they believe what they do. I hope other people also share their thoughts here.

And no, I do not want to bring god under my lab and carry out experiments under my fingertips or my rules. But for me to believe, I need some evidence beyond blind faith and imagination.

Explanations doesn't necessarily mean you can see what you are explaining. What about the Quantum leap? Does that ring a bell? Most things in science involves what probably is, or what might be according to the understanding of human nature, not that it's really factual.

Did I say anywhere that explanation means you can see? you are putting words into my mouth.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Re: Hi

We aren't going anywhere but round and round.

Hmm I thought I was going straight

I dodn't want to preach or convince people here but just get their idea of why they believe what they do. I hope other people also share their thoughts here.

Of course. We're just having a healthy discussion. Well I hope so. The more take part, the more fun it is.

And no, I do not want to bring god under my lab and carry out experiments under my fingertips or my rules.

Good, someone different lol.

Did I say anywhere that explanation means you can see? you are putting words into my mouth.

I didn't say u were, but that's how it came across to me since you say you go with evidence you can see etc. Then u mentioned explanations, hence i put it together. What do u expect? :/

No biggie

 

[ژاله]

Re: Hi

peace be with you fawad...

Let's see, most of us follow what we are brought up and told to follow. Like I didn't choose to be a muslim but happened to be born in a family and country that believed in God. And as a kid, we were told and taught to worship God and believe in Him, live according to His teachings, heaven and hell, etc etc. but when you grow up you start asking questions. You cannot blindly follow something that does not make sense to you at all.

the same question bothered me too for quite a long time,but then alhamdulillah i found the answer,and thanks to Allah i am a firm believer in islam.that was because i found some guidance that showed me why islam is the religion,why is it true,and proved to me that indeed Allah is the creator of the universe.
let me share some crystal clear proofs with you.
THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE


In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today. 1


Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that "the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time." However, modern research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology have revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly "expands."

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.


From the moment of the Big Bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.
This notion was confirmed by the use of observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. This discovery is regarded as one of the greatest in the history of astronomy. During these observations, Hubble established that the stars emit a light that turns redder according to their distance. That is because according to the known laws of physics, light heading towards a point of observation turns violet, and light moving away from that point assumes a more reddish hue. During his observations, Hubble noted a tendency towards the colour red in the light emitted by stars. In short, the stars were moving further and further away, all the time. The stars and galaxies were not only moving away from us, but also from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from everything else implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe is constantly expanding.

In order to gain a clearer understanding of this, let us imagine the universe to be the surface of a balloon being inflated. In the same way that the more the balloon is inflated, the further away the points on its surface move from one another, celestial bodies also move away from one another as the universe expands. This was theoretically discovered by Albert Einstein, regarded as one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. However, in order to avoid violating the "static universe model" that was generally accepted at that time, Einstein laid that discovery aside. He would later describe this as the greatest blunder of his life. 2

This fact was explained in the Qur'an in a time when telescopes and similar technological advancements were not even close to being invented. This is because the Qur'an is the Word of Allah: the Creator and Ruler of the entire universe.


THE END OF THE UNIVERSE AND THE BIG CRUNCH

The Big Crunch theory proposes that the universe, that began expanding with the Big Bang, will collapse in on itself with increasing speed. According to the theory, this collapse of the universe will continue until the universe has lost all its mass and turned into a single point of infinite density.


As we have stated above, the creation of the universe began with a huge explosion. From this point, the universe has been expanding ever since. Scientists say that when the mass of the universe has reached a sufficient level, this expansion will come to an end because of gravity, causing the universe to collapse in on itself. 3

It is also believed that the contracting universe will end in a fierce heat and contraction known as the "Big Crunch." This would lead to the end of all forms of life as we know them. Renata Kallosh and Andrei Linde, professors of physics from Stanford University, made the following statements on the subject:

The universe may be doomed to collapse and disappear. Everything we see now, and at a much larger distance that we cannot see, will collapse into a point smaller than a proton. Locally, it will be the same as if you were inside a black hole... We have found that some of the best attempts to describe dark energy predict that it will gradually become negative, which will cause the universe to become unstable, then collapse... Physicists have known that dark energy could become negative and the universe could collapse sometime in the very distant future... but now we see that we might be, not in the beginning, but in the middle of the life cycle of our universe. 4

This is how this scientific hypothesis of the Big Crunch is indicated in the Qur'an:

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

In another verse, this state of the heavens is described thus:

They do not measure Allah with His true measure. The whole earth will be a mere handful for Him on the Day of Rising the heavens folded up in His right hand. Glory be to Him! He is exalted above the partners they ascribe! (Qur'an, 39:67)

According to the Big Crunch theory, the universe will begin to collapse slowly and will then increasingly pick up speed. At the end of the process the universe will have infinite density and be infinitely hot and small. This scientific theory runs parallel to the Qur'anic explanation of this particular scientific concept. (Allah knows best)



The picture represents the Big Bang, which revealed once again that Allah created the universe from nothingness. The Big Bang is a theory that has been proven with scientific evidence. Although some scientists tried to advance arguments against the Big Bang, scientific evidence has caused the Big Bang theory to be completely accepted by the scientific community.


CREATION FROM HOT SMOKE
Scientists today are able to observe the formation of stars from a hot gas cloud. Formation from a warm mass of gas also applies to the creation of the universe. The creation of the universe as described in the Qur'an confirms this scientific discovery in the following verse:

He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

The Arabic word for "smoke" in the above verse is "dukhanun," which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur'an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur'an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke. 5

The fact that such information about the creation of the universe is given
the Qur'an is nothing short of a miracle of the Qur'an.

heres a historical miracle.
"HAMAN" AND ANCIENT EGYPT MONUMENTS


The name "Haman" was not known until the decoding of Egyptian hieroglyphics in the 19th century. When the hieroglyphics were decoded, it was understood that Haman was a close helper of the Pharaoh and was "the head of the stone quarries." (Above are shown ancient Egyptian construction workers). The most important point here is that Haman is mentioned in the Qur'an as the person who directed construction work under the command of the Pharaoh. This means that information that could not have been known by anybody else at that time was given in the Qur'an, a point most worthy of note.

The Qur'an relates the life of the Prophet Musa (as) with great clarity. As it tells of the conflict with the Pharaoh and his dealings with the Children of Israel, the Qur'an reveals a wealth of information about ancient Egypt. The significance of many of these historical points have only recently come to the attention of the learned people of the world. If one considers these points with reason, it quickly becomes clear that the Qur'an, and the fountain of information contained within it, has been revealed by the All-Wise Allah for it correlates directly with all major scientific, historic and archaeological finds in recent times.

One such example of this wisdom can be found in the Qur'anic references to Haman: a character whose name is mentioned in the Qur'an, along with the Pharaoh. He is mentioned in six different places in the Qur'an, in which it informs us that he was one of Pharaoh's closest allies.

Surprisingly, the name "Haman" is never mentioned in those sections of the Torah pertaining to the life of the Prophet Musa (as). However, the mention of Haman can be found in the last chapters of the Old Testament as the helper of a Babylonian king who inflicted many cruelties on the Israelites approximately 1,100 years after the Prophet Musa (as).The Qur'an, far more in tune with recent archaeological discoveries, does indeed contain the word "Haman" in reference to the life of the Prophet Musa (as).

The criticisms thrown at the book of Islam by some non-Muslims have disappeared by the wayside as an Egyptian hieroglyphic script had been deciphered, approximately 200 years ago, and the name "Haman" discovered in the ancient scripts. Until the 18th century, the writings and inscriptions of ancient Egypt could not be understood. The language of ancient Egypt was made up of symbols rather than words: hieroglyphics. These pictures, which tell stories and keep records of important events in the same way that modern words do, was usually engraved on rock or stone and many examples survived through the ages. With the spread of Christianity and other cultural influences in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Egypt forsook its ancient beliefs along with the hieroglyphic writing which was synonymous with that now defunct belief system. The last known example of the use of hieroglyphic writing was an inscription dated 394. The language of pictures and symbols was forgotten, leaving nobody who could read and understand it. Naturally, this made historical and archaeological study virtually impossible. This situation remained-until just over two centuries ago.

In 1799, much to the delight of historians and other learned people, the mystery of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics was solved by the discovery of a tablet called the "Rosetta Stone." This amazing find dated back to 196 B.C. The importance of this inscription was that it was written in three different forms of writing: hieroglyphics, demotic (a simplified form of ancient Egyptian hieratic writing) and Greek. With the help of the Greek script, the ancient Egyptian writings were decoded. The translation of the inscription was completed by a Frenchman named Jean-François Champollion. Hence, a forgotten language and the events related in it were brought to light. In this way, a great deal of knowledge about the civilization, religion and social life of ancient Egypt became available to mankind and this opened the way to greater knowledge about this important era in human history.

Through the decoding of hieroglyph, an important piece of knowledge was revealed: The name "Haman" was indeed mentioned in Egyptian inscriptions. This name was referred to in a monument in the Hof Museum in Vienna. This same inscription also indicated the close relationship between Haman and the Pharaoh.200

In the dictionary of People in the New Kingdom, that was prepared based on the entire collection of inscriptions, Haman is said to be "the head of stone quarry workers."201

The result revealed a very important truth: Unlike the false assertion of the opponents of the Qur'an, Haman was a person who lived in Egypt at the time of the Prophet Musa (as). He had been close to the Pharaoh and had been involved in construction work, just as imparted in the Qur'an.

Pharaoh said, "Council, I do not know of any other god for you apart from Me. Haman, kindle a fire for me over the clay and build me a lofty tower so that perhaps I may be able to climb up to Musa's god! I consider him a blatant liar." (Qur'an, 28:38)
The verse in the Qur'an describing the event where the Pharaoh asked Haman to build a tower is in perfect agreement with this archaeological finding. Through this brilliant discovery, the irrational claims of the opponents of the Qur'an were demonstrated to be false and intellectually worthless.

In a miraculous way, the Qur'an conveys to us historical information that could not have been possessed or understood at the time of the Prophet (saas). Hieroglyphics could not be deciphered until the late 1700s so the information could not have been ascertained from Egyptian sources. When the name "Haman" was discovered in the ancient scripts, it was further proof of the infallibility of Allah's Word.

i could have given you the link straight away but i am giving you a few examples just to show you that Allah indeed is the creator.there are loads and loads of such proofs.you can read the whole book here
http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p3_01.php
i could not upload the accompanying images,though you may find the captions of some of them.you can try the link for that.i am sorry for the lousy performance.i request that you give it a read.
peace...
p.s. the original source provides the references too,just i didnt upload them.

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

Is there any point of this thread anymore?

Nopes. Besides, this is supposed to be a welcome thread.


@Malaak
thanks for copy-pasting the text. I have read this and several others like it. If you do not mind, I would like to ask you a simple question:

If all the scientific knowledge as you claim is in the Quran, then why did the muslims have to wait for over a thousand years for Europeans to discover all this? I mean you do not even have to work hard and research because its already researched and given to you by god? Why wait for someone else to find it out and then claim: Hey, but we already knew that!

So answer me, why?


Oh, and by the way I just checked the first reference you gave (Qur'an, 51:47) and this is what I found:


YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.


Any knowledgeable person here would testify that these are the most highly regarded translations of the Quran in the English language and neither of them use or imply the term 'expanding'. (hint: if you are smart enough, you will find the answer to my previous question here)


I could answer all of what you wrote, but this is not a thread for that kind of debate. If you still want a reply, I will give you (but you have to promise me that you will be able to take the criticism)

 

[aadil77]

Re: Hi

I could answer all of what you wrote, but this is not a thread for that kind of debate. If you still want a reply, I will give you (but you have to promise me that you will be able to take the criticism)

thats funny, we welcome that kind of 'criticism' around here because it always fails but then it actually increases the faith of some of us muslims here as well, so go for it but in a new thread.

this forum is the best place for your 'criticism', because I guarantee its not gonna flow around here

 

[جوري]

Re: Hi

someone should hand this kid a history book before he embarrasses himself further ..

don't recognize any Muslim scholars at all? even in Rafael's school of athen?

whose philosophy books were banned by order of pope Alexander the IV

how about some brisk reading before the bravado in writing?

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-...-record-straight-miracle-islamic-science.html

I won't get started on the Arabic, since I hate to have my time wasted on amateurs, but get read kid before you gauge debates ....

funny I'd not have noticed this thread from which I unsubscribed earlier if Muhammad hadn't deleted my very appropriate greeting!

 

[ژاله]

Re: Hi

If all the scientific knowledge as you claim is in the Quran, then why did the muslims have to wait for over a thousand years for Europeans to discover all this?

to be honest,i dont see the point of this question.but you see,it took some time for human kind to develop technology to the extent that disclosed facts like that.off course it has always been in the quran and muslim scholars knew that(or whoever who had read and pondered upon the quran),they knew such things as facts(well,it depends on their iman if they believed to the extent that even what didnt apparently make sense they considered true.)
but they had no evidence for that,nor any means by which they could prove the correctness of such claims.science provided the evidence and a method to prove the facts that have been there for 1400 years.thats all.a question as trifling as this should not be the source of any confusion and conflict at all.

I mean you do not even have to work hard and research because its already researched and given to you by god? Why wait for someone else to find it out and then claim: Hey, but we already knew that!

first of all,its a matter of common sense that God does not need to research,He created and He knows about His creation.As i stated,Muslims knew such things as facts given to them by God.but when they were discovered by science it only boosted their iman and caused their faith to deepen.for non believers,it provided the evidence that Allah is the creator.

thanks for copy-pasting the text.

welcome!i know i copy-pasted and i stated that too.i never claimed that it was extracted from my own research paper.in case you supposed i was plagiarising!

Oh, and by the way I just checked the first reference you gave (Qur'an, 51:47) and this is what I found:

YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Any knowledgeable person here would testify that these are the most highly regarded translations of the Quran in the English language and neither of them use or imply the term 'expanding'. (hint: if you are smart enough, you will find the answer to my previous question here)

for your information,any knowledgeable person knows that this is a universal problem with any kind of translation.you take three people who all are familiar with 2 given languages,give them a text in one language and ask them to translate it in the other language and all the 3 versions of translation will never be the same,if not strikingly different.and the original text will not be translated to have the same meaning it had before translation.
here,all the 3 versions point to vastness regardless of who the translator is.even here,as generally happens with translations,the essence remains but the original meaning can not be traced.but if you know a little bit of arabic and try to see the original text,i mean the quran,you will find out that it says
و انا لموسعون,which literally means that we are the ones who expand.despite the fact that translation loses half the wisdom and meaning of the original text,there might be another reason that the translators might have given little attention to this aspect,as they being unaware of this scientific reality,and might have tried to adjust the meaning to what seemed more probable and "real" to them.Allahu A3lam.a text can be translated into more than one meanings.i am not accusing them or anything,i am sure they must have translated that with the purest of intentions and to the best of their abilities.but problems like these are natural with any kind of translation.

Out of all the clear evidences and facts that strongly prove Quran to be the word of God and God,Allah being the creator,if you were able to turn a blind eye to all of them and come with questions as silly as these as your most important and solid criticisms,what else can i say other than
فمن یرد اللھ ان یھدیھ یشرح صدرھ للا سلام ومن یرد ان یضلھ یجعل صدرھ ضیقا حرجا کانما یصعد فی السماء کذالک یجعل اللھ الرجس علی الذین لا یؤ منون۔
And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky. Thus Allah puts the wrath on those who believe not.
peace...!

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

someone should hand this kid a history book before he embarrasses himself further ..

don't recognize any Muslim scholars at all? even in Rafael's school of athen?

whose philosophy books were banned by order of pope Alexander the IV

how about some brisk reading before the bravado in writing?

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-...-record-straight-miracle-islamic-science.html

I won't get started on the Arabic, since I hate to have my time wasted on amateurs, but get read kid before you gauge debates ....

funny I'd not have noticed this thread from which I unsubscribed earlier if Muhammad hadn't deleted my very appropriate greeting!

Funny you are calling me a kid when you are the one who doesn't know jack about what is being discussed.

You posted a link claiming muslims discovered logrithm, binomial series,decimal fractions, etc but what's the relevance, even if we assume for the sake of argument that all these are true?

Were these theorems given in the Quran or are you just feeling insecure and posting randomly? We are discussing the so called science in the Quran here so who's having bravado problems here?

to be honest,i dont see the point of this question.but you see,it took some time for human kind to develop technology to the extent that disclosed facts like that.off course it has always been in the quran and muslim scholars knew that(or whoever who had read and pondered upon the quran),they knew such things as facts(well,it depends on their iman if they believed to the extent that even what didnt apparently make sense they considered true.)
but they had no evidence for that,nor any means by which they could prove the correctness of such claims.science provided the evidence and a method to prove the facts that have been there for 1400 years.thats all.a question as trifling as this should not be the source of any confusion and conflict at all.

The point of this question is: If as you claim the scientific knowledge has been in the Quran, then why didn't the muslims or anyone for that matter came up with it centuries before it took western scientists lots of time and hard work to come up with these theories? I mean you do not have to do anything, the whole knowledge has been gifted to you already, no?

No let me answer the question for you. It is because there was no such thing to begin with. You know the wonderful thing about poetry is that you can fit it to mean anything you want. And all muslims have done is sit and wait for a scientific discovery to happen and then try to find some verse(s) that can be twisted, turned or molded so they can say: "Hey, our book stated that 1400 years ago."

I provided you with 3 renowned translations, all of which mean the same thing (with different wordings but same meaning) so your claim that things cannot be translated is taken care of since we have 3 different sources with different wordings but same meaning. NONE OF THEM refers to expanding. Western scientists discovers that the universe is expanding and someone gets up, makes his own translation to imply the same. I bet if we found out the universe is not expanding, this supposed meaning of the word would never even be mentioned and you will stick to the translation as "vastness". I doubt even today any muslim country has the scientific apparatus to measure if the universe is expanding or not. Suppose the scientists reclaim their discover that the universe is not expanding, the same people will go back to using the fact that the verse means vastness not expanding.

That's not science, that's fanboy stuff and playing with poetry.

As further example, consider the works of Nostradamus or Mother Shipton. Those are also poetic verses and have been interpreted to predict loads and loads of future events. Just like this harunyahya guy, Nostradamus fans have also given interpretations to his quatrains after the events have come to pass by inventing all sorts of meanings. So were these people gods and goddesses too?

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

can you please explain to me how you fold up heaven like pages of a book? How do you fold pages of a book? fold the book? or is it referring to turning the pages of a book? is it folding the pages to help you remember which page you were on?
Kindly explain what fold up pages of a book looks like.

He placed firmly embedded mountains on it, towering over it, and blessed it and measured out its nourishment in it, laid out for those who seek it-all in four days. Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come willingly or unwillingly." They both said, "We come willingly." (Qur'an, 41:10-11)

Now I presume its not the earthly days we know of, but refers to the day with God, right? A question that arises is which day? at one place God says " a day unto your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (Sura 22:47, 32:5) and at another place it says its like 50,000 years(Sura 70:4) which btw is another error the writer of the Quran forgot about. So which day do we take?
Verse 9 of the same chapter says the earth was created in 2 days. Here it says the mountains were embedded in 4 days. So the Quran is telling us that it took a shorter amount of time to create the earth and double the time to embed mountains which we know are but a recent event in the history of both the universe and the earth. The himalayas for example, began only 70 million years ago. Moreover, whichever you take, 2,000/100,000 yrs and 4,000 /200,000yrs is inaccurate for the formation of earth or mountains.


Here's what you stated:The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe.

So after the earth had been created and mountains placed in it (which as we know is a recent event), the heaven was still smoke??? And are the earth and heaven different? Weren't you trying to prove the big bang from the Quran earlier that created both the earth and heaven together? And now Allah has to ask them to come together? Oh and btw, I didnt know the earth and heaven could speak arabic language. Or are you going to call this just a metaphor used in poetry to tell me how some other scientific discovery is also mentioned?

Need I go on? Please do me and yourself a favor. Pick one of Pickthall, Yusuf Ali or Shakir as the standard translation and we will use it as reference for any future discussion. These translations are good enough for all non-arabic speaking muslims to be using it. Or maybe everything has been translated correctly except the scientific evidence is missing? Also do me another favor and define whether we will be using literal meanings or metaphorical meanings in the Quran? In the later case, I give up since you can use about any poetry to interpret it the way you feel like.

first of all,its a matter of common sense that God does not need to research,He created and He knows about His creation.As i stated,Muslims knew such things as facts given to them by God.but when they were discovered by science it only boosted their iman and caused their faith to deepen.for non believers,it provided the evidence that Allah is the creator.

welcome!i know i copy-pasted and i stated that too.i never claimed that it was extracted from my own research paper.in case you supposed i was plagiarising!

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of any plaigarism. Its just that when someone quotes, its also interesting the quoted text be minimum and the authors comments/discussion on the quoted text. No problem with the quoted, I just answered those claims.

for your information,any knowledgeable person knows that this is a universal problem with any kind of translation.you take three people who all are familiar with 2 given languages,give them a text in one language and ask them to translate it in the other language and all the 3 versions of translation will never be the same,if not strikingly different.and the original text will not be translated to have the same meaning it had before translation.
here,all the 3 versions point to vastness regardless of who the translator is.even here,as generally happens with translations,the essence remains but the original meaning can not be traced.but if you know a little bit of arabic and try to see the original text,i mean the quran,you will find out that it says
و انا لموسعون,which literally means that we are the ones who expand.despite the fact that translation loses half the wisdom and meaning of the original text,there might be another reason that the translators might have given little attention to this aspect,as they being unaware of this scientific reality,and might have tried to adjust the meaning to what seemed more probable and "real" to them.Allahu A3lam.a text can be translated into more than one meanings.i am not accusing them or anything,i am sure they must have translated that with the purest of intentions and to the best of their abilities.but problems like these are natural with any kind of translation.

Out of all the clear evidences and facts that strongly prove Quran to be the word of God and God,Allah being the creator,if you were able to turn a blind eye to all of them and come with questions as silly as these as your most important and solid criticisms,what else can i say other than
فمن یرد اللھ ان یھدیھ یشرح صدرھ للا سلام ومن یرد ان یضلھ یجعل صدرھ ضیقا حرجا کانما یصعد فی السماء کذالک یجعل اللھ الرجس علی الذین لا یؤ منون۔
And whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast to Islam, and whomsoever He wills to send astray, He makes his breast closed and constricted, as if he is climbing up to the sky. Thus Allah puts the wrath on those who believe not.
peace...!

I just answered your "clear evidences and facts that strongly prove Quran".


That's one of my points btw. When you start "adjusting" poetry, you start moving away from knowledge and into the world of fiction. I have no problems where a word has different meanings and I understand that translations could differ slightly then the intended meanings. But I am against such "adjustments" after something has been discovered.

Let me give you an example. You can carry out an experiment, obtain a data and plot a graph and claim you discovered something. On the other hand, you can draw a bunch of graphs, which btw are open to 'adjustments', go looking for a data to fit it , go to the scientific community for the explanation of the data and claim you already had the knowledge this data will lead to this graph.

You chose who is right and who is wrong.

 

[fawad]

Re: Hi

Anyone can tell me how to edit a post if you make a typo? I don't see the edit button

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Re: Hi

Anyone can tell me how to edit a post if you make a typo? I don't see the edit button

You have to be a full member to edit your posts. To become a full member you need to have 50 posts, you have 20 posts currently so you're not far off.

 

[Afg]

brother fawad



This is a thread for brother fawad, because i cant post in his thread, so i just made another thread. Well i came around here and came acrosss your thread and was reading it. And probably this doesnt matter to you, but im sure a lot of us felt dissapointment. I just wanted to say brother you have been blessed to already been born in Islam, it was already there for you, without you having to search for it. Nowadays you see many reverts coming to Islam, just being how glad they are to have found this truth. Glad to get away from all the chaos. Brother you have just let this blessing slip from you. While you were Muslim, did you ever say to yourself your not going to apostate? Because i do remember saying that to myself. But its strange how things take a turn like that. Have you prayed and felt at the moment that there is Allah watching you, hearing you? In life, Allah will test us, to see if we can hold on, if we still believe. Brother look again, see Allah's miracles. See the beauty of Islam, see the peace. Life is only once, dont let it go just like this. If everybody was atheist, would it really matter if we did good or not? What would be the purpose of life? Also if you ever have difficulties in life, do you ask Allah? When you look at the sky, and the stars, do you think thats just by chance? Maybe you think its something to do with science? Well it is, because Allah created it like that. And although there are verses in the Qur'aan that talks about these, we Muslims have not discovered before. Maybe thats our own fault, and anyway if we did state that the Qur'aan talks about these things, its not like anyone would believe us. Read the Qur'aan again, read about Islam again. How did a book as the Qur'aan come around? How did someone like Muhammad (s.a.w) could have written the Qur'aan? The Qur'aan that has miracles and amazing facts in it? Pls brother, reconsider your apostacy, Allah is most forgiving. Im no a great Muslim myself, and im sry if you find this rude, i dont usually do this. And im sure a lot brothers and sisters here are sad to hear story like yours. Here's something to share:

What Does Islam Say About Life's Purpose?

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself these questions? -

* "What is the purpose of everything?"
* "How did we get here?"
* "What does it all mean?"
* "What is meaning of Life?"

People everywhere are asking the questions; "What is the purpose of life?" and "Why are we here?" You might be amazed to learn, that Islam is providing clear and concise answers for these questions.

Most of those who reflect or think about life in any detail will consider and ponder these questions. There are as many different answers to these questions as there are people asking the questions. Some would hold that the purpose of life was to acquire wealth. Yet suppose they were to acquire millions of dollars, what then would they claim is their purpose after doing so?

<> If the purpose of life is to become wealthy, there would be no purpose after becoming wealthy.

The fact is that when people approach their purpose here in this life from the aspect of only gaining wealth, after collecting the money they have dreamed of their lives loose purpose and then they live in restless tension suffering from a feeling of worthlessness.

<> How could wealth then be considered as the aim of life?
Could the acquisition of wealth guarantee happiness? Of course not.
When we hear of millionaires or members of their families committing suicide, how could we consider the purpose of life would be to gain great wealth?

A child of 5 years would obviously prefer a new toy to a deposit slip for a million dollars.

A teenager does not consider millions of dollars in the bank a substitute for movies, videos, pizza and hanging out with his friends.

A person in their 80s or 90s would never consider holding on to their wealth in place of spending it to hold on to or regain their health.

This proves that money is not the main purpose at all the stages of one's life.

<> Wealth can do little or nothing to bring happiness to one who is a disbeliever in Almighty God, because regardless of what he or she would gain in this life they would always live in fear of what will happen to them in the end. They would wonder what would become of them and how they would end up.

Wealth and its accumulation as a purpose would be doomed to a temporary success at best and in the end it would only spell out self destruction.

So, what is the use of wealth to a person without belief? He would always fear his end and would always be skeptical of everything. He may gain a great material wealth but he would only lose himself in the end.

<> Worship of the One True Almighty God of the Universe [Allah in Arabic] as a primary goal or aim in life provides a believer with everything he needs to succeed in both this life and the Next Life.

The word for total surrender, submission, obedience, purity of heart and peace in the Arabic language is "Islam". Those who try to perform these actions are called "MU-slims" [Islam-ERs].

To a Muslim the whole purpose of life is "ibadah" or worship to the One True Almighty God on Terms and under His Conditions.

The term "worship" to a Muslim includes any and all acts of obedience to Almighty Allah.

So his purpose of life is a standing purpose; Worshipping Allah by accepting Allah's Will over his own.
This act of ibadah [worshipping, thanking and extolling the Greatness Almighty Allah on His Terms and Conditions] is for the Muslim, throughout his whole life regardless of the stage. Whether he is a child, adolescent, adult or aged person, he is seeking after the Will of the Almighty in all these stages.
His life here on earth although short, is full of purpose and is totally meaningful within the complete framework of total submission [Islam].

Similarly, in the Next Life as well, his faith, intentions, attitudes and good deeds will all be weighed into his account as favorable putting him in high esteem with his Creator and Sustainer.

Because Islam teaches that this life is only a test or trial for the individual to show him his true nature it is only natural that he would accept death as not so much an ending to everything but more as a beginning of the final and lasting life in the Hereafter.

Before entering into either of the final lodging places i.e.; Heaven or Hell, there must needs be a Day of Judgment or showing of one's true self to make them aware of their own nature and thereby understand what they have sent on ahead during the life here on the earth.

Every person will be rewarded [or punished] according to their attitude, appreciation and efforts during this stay on earth. None will be asked about the actions and beliefs of others, nor will anyone be asked regarding that which he was unaware of or incapable of doing.

As the life here is considered as an examination for the individual, the death stage is considered as a resting period after the test. It could be easy for those who were faithful and dedicated or it could be grueling and horrible for the wicked.

Reward and punishment will be in direct proportion to each person and it is only Allah, alone who will be the Final Judge over us all.

So in the teachings of the True Surrender, Submission, Obedience, In Sincerity and Peace to the Almighty One God [Islam], the line of life and its purpose is logical, clear and simple:

* The first life is a test
* The life in the grave is a resting or waiting place before the Day of Judgment
* The Day of Judgment brings about the clear understanding of what will now happen to the individual based on his own desires and actions
* The Permanent or Afterlife will either be spend in luxurious splendor or miserable punishment
* Following this clear understanding of life, the Muslim's purpose is clear

<> First of all, he has no doubt in his mind that:

* He is only created by Allah
* he is going to spend a period of time in this material world [called "Ad Dunyah" in Arabic]
* he knows he will die
* he knows he will spend time in the grave, either pleasant or difficult depending on his own choice of attitude and actions
* he knows he will be resurrected for the Day of Judgment
* he knows he will be judged according to the most fair of standards by Allah the Almighty, the All Mighty, the All Knowing
* He realizes his attitude and actions are going to come under very close scrutiny
* he knows that this short life compared to the Eternal Life was in fact, only for a test

<> This life is very meaningful and purposeful to the Believing Muslim, as he realizes that it will determine is outcome and permanent position in the Next Life.

The Muslim's permanent purpose is to Surrender, Submit, Obey, in Purity and Peace to Allah the Almighty, carrying out His Orders and staying in some form of worship to Him as much as possible everyday.

This includes the orders of Allah in His Book, the Holy Quran and His final Messenger and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him as follows:

<> Believing and declaring that "There is no god throughout all the Creation of Allah that is worthy of worship, all worship is due only to Allah, alone and He has no partners or helpers nor does He share His Lordship with any of His creations. And Muhammad, the son of Abdullah ibn Abdul Mutallib (1450 years ago) is the last and final messenger and servant of Almighty Allah, and is the culmination in a long line of prophets sent to mankind throughout man's history, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus Christ, may Almighty Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon them all."

* Establishing the regular five times ritualistic prayer [salat] in the stated times (in the mosques for the men when possible)
* Paying the charity tax [Zakat = about 2.5% of one's holdings - not his income, annually]
* Fasting the month of Ramadhan [lunar calendar]
* Pilgrimage to the House of Allah in Mecca at least once in the life of the person, provided he has the ability and the way is safe

<> For a disbeliever the purpose of this life is to collect and amass great wealth, money, power and position. Over indulging in eating, drinking, drugs, sex and gambling are a high priority to them. But all of this will not avail them anything good in the grave, on the Day of Judgment or in the Next Life. Eventually he will be faced with the question:

* Now what?
* What's Next?
* Where am I going?
* What will happen to me?

<> He will come to know. For sure he will come to know. But then what will the knowledge avail him?

Look how Islam solves the mystery of the puzzle of life. It provides the answers to the questions and concerns of the human beings on all levels and in every aspect. It is really quite simple.

The purpose of life as understood by the Believing Muslim can be simply stated in only two (2) words:

Obey God!

Final Conclusion based on the above considerations:

Our only purpose and salvation lie in those two words. We must come to know our Creator, Sustainer and Ultimate Judge. We must learn to believe in Him, thank Him, praise Him, honor Him and worship Him, alone without any partners from His Creation. We must learn about His Messengers and Prophets, peace be upon them, and the message with which they were all sent. We must learn the Word of God as was directly revealed, preserved and memorized and passed down by memory throughout all the generations of Muslims to the present day.

Those who are in search of truth, having open minds and hearts will recognize this as a message in truth and sincerity. Open your heart and your mind now and ask the Almighty God of the Universe [Allah] to guide you now to His True Way. And then be ready to accept your true purpose in life.

 

[Afg]

Re: brother fawad

here's something to share:

It is absolutley IMPOSSIBLE that the earth and the universe and everything it contains could have been created from thin air or randomly and without purpose. That is in itself unscientific aswell as inconcievable and unthinkable.

It is crystal clear for anyone who ponders and contemplates about life and the universe that EVERYTHING around us on the earth and in the universe is is created to support life and has a creator,designer,controller and regulator who has so perfectly and intricley and with absolute precision created EVERYTHING around us so in order for life to live and survive.

Here are just some of the countless proofs of the existance of a creator,regulator,designer,nourisher and sustainer of life and the universe and everything it contains!

Gravity:

- If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.
- If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible.
The Earth's Distance from the Sun:
- If this were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.
- If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible.-

The Thickness of the Earth's Crust:

- If the crust were any thicker, then an excessive amount of oxygen would be transferred to it from the atmosphere.
- If it were any thinner, the resulting amount of volcanic activity would make life impossible.

The Speed at which the Earth Revolves:

If this were any slower, the temperature difference between day and night would grow enormously.
-If it were any faster, then atmospheric winds would reach enormous speeds, and cyclones and storms would make life impossible.

The Earth's Magnetic Field:

- If this were any more powerful, very strong electromagnetic storms would arise.
- If it were any weaker, then the Earth would lose its protection against the harmful particles given off by the Sun and known as solar winds. Both situations would make life impossible.-
The Albedo Effect (Ratio between the amount of light the Earth reflects and the amount of light that is absorbed):
- If this were any greater, an ice-age would rapidly result.
- If it were any less, the greenhouse effect would lead to excessive warming. The Earth would first be flooded with the melting of the glaciers, and would then burn up.-

The Proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere:

- If this were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated.
- If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.
The Proportion of Carbon Dioxide and Water in the Atmosphere:
- If this were any greater, the atmosphere would overheat.
- If it were any less, the temperature of the atmosphere would fall.

The Thickness of the Ozone Layer:

- If this were any greater, the Earth's temperature would fall enormously.
- If it were any less, the Earth would overheat and be defenceless against the harmful ultraviolet rays emitted by the Sun.

Seismic Activity (Earthquakes):

- If this were any greater, there would be constant upheaval for living things.
- If it were any less, the nutrients at the sea bottom would fail to spread into the water. This would have a damaging effect on life in the seas and oceans and all living things on Earth.-

The Earth's Angle of Tilt:

The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle was any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.

The Size of the Sun:

A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.

The Attraction between the Earth and the Moon:

- If this were any greater, the powerful attraction of the Moon would have extremely serious effects on atmospheric conditions, the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis and on the ocean tides.
- If it were any less, this would lead to extreme climate changes.-
The Distance between the Earth and the Moon:
- If they were just a little closer, the Moon would crash into the Earth.
- If they were any further, the Moon would become lost in space.
- If they were even a little closer, the Moon's effect on the Earth's tides would reach dangerous dimensions. Ocean waves would inundate low-lying areas. The friction emerging as a result of this would raise the temperature of the oceans and the sensitive temperature balance essential to life on Earth would disappear.
- If they were even a little further away, the tides would decrease, leading the oceans to be less mobile. Immobile water would endanger life in the seas, and the level of the oxygen we breathe would be endangered.

The Qur’an states:

The kingdom of the heavens and earth belongs to Allah. Allah has power over all things. In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people with intelligence.
(Qur’an, 3:189-190)

The Temperature of the Earth and Carbon-Based Life:

The existence of carbon, the basis of all life, depends on the temperature remaining within specific limits. Carbon is an essential substance for organic molecules such as amino-acid, nucleic acid and protein: These constitute the basis of life. For that reason, life can only be carbon-based. Given this, the existing temperature needs to be no lower than -20 degrees and no higher than 120 degrees Celsius. These are just the temperature limits on Earth.

These are just a few of the exceedingly sensitive balances which are essential for life on Earth to have emerged and to survive. Yet even these are sufficient to definitively reveal that the Earth and the universe could not have come into being as the result of a number of consecutive coincidences. The concepts of "fine-tuning" and the "anthropic principle" that began to be employed in the 20th century are further evidence of Allah's creation. The harmony and proportion therein were described with magnificent accuracy fourteen centuries ago in the Qur'an.

ORBITS AND THE ROTATING UNIVERSE

One of the most important reasons for the great equilibrium in the universe is the fact that celestial bodies follow specific paths. Stars, planets and satellites rotate around their own axes and also rotate together within the system of which they are a part of.

The universe functions within a finely-tuned order, just like the wheels in a factory.

There are more than 100 billion galaxies in the visible universe and each small galaxy contains approximately a billion stars. Furthermore, each big galaxy contains more than a trillion. Many of these stars have planets and many of those planets have satellites. All these celestial bodies follow the most finely calculated paths and orbits. For millions of years, each one has been moving in its own path in flawless harmony with all the others. In addition to these, there are also a great many comets moving along in their own pre-determined paths.

In addition, the paths in the universe are not restricted to a few celestial bodies. The Solar System and even other galaxies also exhibit considerable motion around other centres. Every year, Earth, and the Solar System with it, move some 500 million km from where they were the previous year. It has been calculated that even the slightest deviation from celestial bodies' paths could have drastic consequences which might spell the end of the entire system. For example, the consequences of the earth's deviating from its course by a mere 3 mm have been described in one source as follows:

While rotating around the sun, the earth follows such an orbit that, every 18 miles; it only deviates 2.8 millimetres from a direct course. The orbit followed by the earth never changes, because even a deviation of 3 millimetres would cause catastrophic disasters: If the deviation were 2.5 mm instead of 2.8 mm, then the orbit would be very large, and all of us would freeze. If the deviation were 3.1 mm, we would be scorched to death.

Another characteristic of heavenly bodies is that they also rotate around their own axes. The verse which reads"[I swear] by Heaven with its cyclical systems," (Qur'an, 86:11) indicates this truth.

Naturally, at the time when the Qur'an was revealed, people had no telescopes with which to study bodies millions of kilometres away in space, advanced observation technology or our modern knowledge of physics and astronomy. It was therefore impossible to establish that space had "its oscillating orbits," (Qur'an, 51:7) as described in the verse. The Qur'an however, revealed at that time, provided clear information concerning that fact. This is proof that this book is indeed Allah's Word.

He is the master of the universe the almighty self sufficient most compassionate most merciful and sustainer of all life and without him we would be no more. Ponder and think to yourself look around you and you will realise that all life and everything around you is proof of his existance.

"It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator?"
(The Qur'an, 56:57-59)

"Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen?"
(The Qur'an, 75:36-37)

 

[Afg]

Re: brother fawad

brother dont hesitate to share with us your views

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: Hi

Funny you are calling me a kid when you are the one who doesn't know jack about what is being discussed.

i'm trying to follow the thread, but i still don't know jack!

You posted a link claiming muslims discovered logrithm, binomial series,decimal fractions, etc but what's the relevance, even if we assume for the sake of argument that all these are true?

Were these theorems given in the Quran or are you just feeling insecure and posting randomly? We are discussing the so called science in the Quran here so who's having bravado problems here?

is that any way to treat a sister?


The point of this question is: If as you claim the scientific knowledge has been in the Quran, then why didn't the muslims or anyone for that matter came up with it centuries before it took western scientists lots of time and hard work to come up with these theories? I mean you do not have to do anything, the whole knowledge has been gifted to you already, no?

not necessarily. the Qur'an has layers upon layers of meanings at times and places. someone focused solely on day to day survival may not have the time or desire or even education to bother with more profound views.

No let me answer the question for you. It is because there was no such thing to begin with. You know the wonderful thing about poetry is that you can fit it to mean anything you want. And all muslims have done is sit and wait for a scientific discovery to happen and then try to find some verse(s) that can be twisted, turned or molded so they can say: "Hey, our book stated that 1400 years ago."

you say that like it's a bad thing!

I provided you with 3 renowned translations, all of which mean the same thing (with different wordings but same meaning) so your claim that things cannot be translated is taken care of since we have 3 different sources with different wordings but same meaning. NONE OF THEM refers to expanding. Western scientists discovers that the universe is expanding and someone gets up, makes his own translation to imply the same. I bet if we found out the universe is not expanding, this supposed meaning of the word would never even be mentioned and you will stick to the translation as "vastness". I doubt even today any muslim country has the scientific apparatus to measure if the universe is expanding or not. Suppose the scientists reclaim their discover that the universe is not expanding, the same people will go back to using the fact that the verse means vastness not expanding.

actually, there are AYATS implying the expanding of the universe. i'm sure that you know them. if i knew them off the top of my head, i'd put them here...

That's not science, that's fanboy stuff and playing with poetry.

As further example, consider the works of Nostradamus or Mother Shipton. Those are also poetic verses and have been interpreted to predict loads and loads of future events. Just like this harunyahya guy, Nostradamus fans have also given interpretations to his quatrains after the events have come to pass by inventing all sorts of meanings. So were these people gods and goddesses too?

mother shipton?

can you please explain to me how you fold up heaven like pages of a book? How do you fold pages of a book? fold the book? or is it referring to turning the pages of a book? is it folding the pages to help you remember which page you were on?
Kindly explain what fold up pages of a book looks like.

FLAT! note, if you take a printed page and fold it, you will no longer be able to see the info that was on said page. i like it when you ask easy questions!

Now I presume its not the earthly days we know of, but refers to the day with God, right? A question that arises is which day? at one place God says " a day unto your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (Sura 22:47, 32:5) and at another place it says its like 50,000 years(Sura 70:4) which btw is another error the writer of the Quran forgot about. So which day do we take?

"a day unto your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" is the norm, the Day of Qiyama will be "like 50,000 years"

Verse 9 of the same chapter says the earth was created in 2 days. Here it says the mountains were embedded in 4 days. So the Quran is telling us that it took a shorter amount of time to create the earth and double the time to embed mountains

actually, it doesn't say that

which we know are but a recent event in the history of both the universe and the earth. The himalayas for example, began only 70 million years ago. Moreover, whichever you take, 2,000/100,000 yrs and 4,000 /200,000yrs is inaccurate for the formation of earth or mountains.

are those the oldest mountains on the planet?

Here's what you stated:The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe.

So after the earth had been created and mountains placed in it (which as we know is a recent event), the heaven was still smoke??? And are the earth and heaven different? Weren't you trying to prove the big bang from the Quran earlier that created both the earth and heaven together? And now Allah has to ask them to come together? Oh and btw, I didnt know the earth and heaven could speak arabic language. Or are you going to call this just a metaphor used in poetry to tell me how some other scientific discovery is also mentioned?

Need I go on? Please do me and yourself a favor. Pick one of Pickthall, Yusuf Ali or Shakir as the standard translation and we will use it as reference for any future discussion. These translations are good enough for all non-arabic speaking muslims to be using it.

NAY, there are NOT! EVER!

Or maybe everything has been translated correctly except the scientific evidence is missing? Also do me another favor and define whether we will be using literal meanings or metaphorical meanings in the Quran? In the later case, I give up since you can use about any poetry to interpret it the way you feel like.

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of any plaigarism. Its just that when someone quotes, its also interesting the quoted text be minimum and the authors comments/discussion on the quoted text. No problem with the quoted, I just answered those claims.

I just answered your "clear evidences and facts that strongly prove Quran".

That's one of my points btw. When you start "adjusting" poetry, you start moving away from knowledge and into the world of fiction. I have no problems where a word has different meanings and I understand that translations could differ slightly then the intended meanings. But I am against such "adjustments" after something has been discovered.

IF you believe the Qur'an is just poetry, could you produce your own Qur'an? how long will this take you?

Let me give you an example. You can carry out an experiment, obtain a data and plot a graph and claim you discovered something. On the other hand, you can draw a bunch of graphs, which btw are open to 'adjustments', go looking for a data to fit it , go to the scientific community for the explanation of the data and claim you already had the knowledge this data will lead to this graph.

You chose who is right and who is wrong.

The Qur’an states:

The kingdom of the heavens and earth belongs to Allah. Allah has power over all things. In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people with intelligence.
(Qur’an, 3:189-190)

maybe not the best translation, BUT...

is it because you disbelieve that now you are trying to "prove" yourself smarter than Allah?

and IF you have the intelligence that you claim, when you decided that the "Islam" of those around you was incorrect, did you attempt to discover if they were truly on the straight path?

people are easy to doubt, Allah, erm nope!

btw, if you find those who try to use "science to prove the Qur'an" to be annoying, wouldn't it be logical that those who do the EXACT opposite to be just as annoying?

:wa:

 

[جوري]

Re: Hi

maybe not the best translation, BUT...

is it because you disbelieve that now you are trying to "prove" yourself smarter than Allah?

and IF you have the intelligence that you claim, when you decided that the "Islam" of those around you was incorrect, did you attempt to discover if they were truly on the straight path?

people are easy to doubt, Allah, erm nope!

btw, if you find those who try to use "science to prove the Qur'an" to be annoying, wouldn't it be logical that those who do the EXACT opposite to be just as annoying?

:wa:

Jazaka Allah khyran.. I have replied to this fellow before, but my reply was removed by admin. I'd hate to bring down the topic of the Quran to the sophomoric level of a snotty nosed kid...

it is a wonder he isn't headed for Stockholm to pick up the Nobel for ground breaking work that the rest of humanity just isn't on to!

 

[CosmicPathos]

The --- claims that there is a contradiction when Allah says that mountains were created in 4 days and reality. The reason he gives is that mountains are constantly being formed and destroyed. I understand where he is coming from though. At one point, our Earth had continents in the form of peangea. And then the continents separated. And the continents move on tectonic plates and when they collide, mountains are formed. Etc. This is a process that is not constant, it has been happening since Earth was formed. Just like with universe which is not in some constant state. Rather universe is expanding, new stars are being formed and new elements keep on forming on them. So from this knowledge, the question does arise what Allah (swt) means when He says that the universe was created in 6 days and Earth was made in 2 days and then mountains were formed in 4 days.

“And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us”[Qaaf 50:38]

“Say (O Muhammad): ‘Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).

He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation).

Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’

Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”[Fussilat 41:9-12]

It should be kept in mind that planets in our solar system were formed as early as 4.5 billion years ago approx. Within few million years after the formation of Sun (a lamp/star).

So even in the creation of adorning the lowest heaven with lamps, a question arises. Some stars were actually created before earth was formed. The Sun was actually created before the Earth came into origin around it.

I take these verses to mean the events that occurred before the Big Bang. In other words, before even our Earth was formed. How can then I explain the verse in which Allah (swt) says He placed therein firm mountains from above it etc when the Earth does not even exist in the primordial matter/energy before Big Bang? Well, it could be that Allah is talking about preserved tablet in which He decreed things in those durations of time. Moreover, everything encompasses Allah's knowledge. So when Allah addresses the Earth and universe "to come willingly or unwillingly" when Big Bang has not even occurred!, it is perfectly fine for Allah to talk about Earth even though it does not exist because He already has knowledge of it. That is how He revealed it in Quran too.