Burka

[CosmicPathos]

There are four ayahs in the quran which mention 'covering' for women.

Neither of these directly use the terms hijab, niqab or any other terms we use today.

Id love to get into a nitty gritty word for word ayah exploration here but I really havent got the time.

One thing is certain in Islam and the religions which came before Islam. Covering up womens adornments and dressing modestly is a certainty in Islam.

Now what is the difference between a hijab and a niqab. A hijab covers the all parts of the body besides the face, hands and according to some madhabs, the feet. The nijab covers all of the woman except her eyes...for some women, even the eyes.

Which is correct? I do not feel at all comfortable giving my opinion when Allah and our prophet and greater men before me have commented on this matter. However, Islam is a religion of logic and reason. Therefore, I would like to promote that both are equally correct.

That is, the hijab is clearly prescribed in the quran. The four madhabs have clearly prescribed the method of covering regarding the hijab. Given that Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, all women are able to and should be covering in this prescribed way. That is, the hijab is the lowest level or standard of covering for women.

The niqab does have a place in Islam. The wives of our prophet wore it. But one thing must be made clear. Women back then, leading from judaism, would wear head and hair covering garments. Therefore, when the ayah came down, it read: "...cover your bosoms..." This ayah was guidance for the women to extend their already covered hair to their bosoms also. In the quran, our prophet is told to tell his wives and the women of islam to cover in a manner in which they "cannot be recognised". Scholars have argued that this is because women of islam, especially our prophets wives, were target for non muslim thugs at the time and therefore this ayah is contextual.

So considering the past, the niqab is a very valid mode of dressing in Islam. It is not prescribed by the quran or our prophet for a universal audience directly, however, covering is about modesty. Hence, I believe that all women need to guage the universality of their mode of dressing. I believe if that by the grace of Allah the world were to become Muslim overnight, many cultures would not be able to find logic in this practice. I think that all women, given that hijab is the lowest form of covering, need to gauge the level of modesty they can adopt to given their context. I like to call this 'contextual modesty'.

My boss at work is an educated woman who wears the niqab. She has a few setbacks, but is confident enough to go on with it. May Allah increase her faith. I cannot disagree with the niqab as it does have a place in Islam...cultural, political, historical or social...it doesnt matter. It is valid and is actually a very very personal (yet very social) thing. If a woman feels she is able to wear the niqab, feels deeply for it and feels that this is the way it is to be, then we, as muslims, need to respect that. Because if we dont respect these muslim sisters, we cant expect anyone else to. Likewise, sisters who wear the niqab need to respect sisters who wear the hijab keeping in mind that hijab is the prescribed form of covering and these sisters should not feel a sense of pride for having 'greater levels of iman' than sisters who wear hijab...that is one battle won and another battle lost with the nafs.

Peace.

This is a very comprehensive reply.

@ Mystical Moon: Sister, I apologize if I unknowingly hurt you. Please study this matter of Afghani origins of Burka/Niqab in more detail with an unbiased approach.

 

[Asiyah3]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
Why do some women wear the burka?
Do you agree with the Burka?
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

Cheers.

I don't know whether specifically burka is mentioned in the Qur'aan/hadith, but we are commanded to cover (except hands and face can be revealed) ourselves modestly.

Yes I do agree with the Burka. I admire women who wear it so much. May Allah reward them :statisfie

I think that non-muslims should also wear it eapecially Christians and Jews. I don't really know much about Jews, but as far as I know covering the hair is also Commanded in the Bible though I don't expect the modern Christians to follow it since they seem to follow their desires and opinions rather than the Creator's commandments

I'm not a man but I know lots of women and none of them have been forced to wear it. Allah SWT by His wisdom has showed us the Wisdom behind it.

I don't wear it but if I would start to cover my face in the future -Insha'lLah- I will wear it for the sake of Allah SWT and also coz' I love dressing islamically but I'm so grateful for this wise command! May He be glorified

 

[ardianto]

We cannot say "in Islam, wear burka is obligatory", also we cannot say "in Islam, wear burka is not obligatory", because Ulama are not in one stance about awrah.

There are Ulama who say woman's face is awrah. According to these Ulama, wear burka or niqab is obligatory.

And there are Ulama who say woman's face is not awrah. According to these Ulama, wear hijab/jilbab is enough.

Both parties have strong daleel and arguments. You can read it in books or in web. It's too long if I must write it in this post.

 

[ardianto]

Assalam aleykoum brother,


I brought verses above, about muslim women have to dress.

You are talking about OULEMA, I am talking about what Allah SWT says in the Quran.

Can you tell me where do you see that women have to wear Burka ????


Thank you for your reply brother,


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.

Assalamualaikum, brother.

Covering awrah is obligated. But there are two opinions about woman's face.
First, woman's face is awrah, and women are obligated to cover their faces.
Second, woman's face is not awrah, and women are allowed to show their faces but must cover their hairs with hijab/jilbab.

These two opinions are exists and supported by Ulama.

I am living in Indonesia. Of course I never see women who wear burka except in photos. But some women in my country wear Saudi style Niqab, or local style Muslimah dress with "cadar" that cover their faces. Brother, Burka is Afghani style Muslimah dress.

 

[sevgi]

I am very intrguied about the few refernces to the burqa having stemmed from 'Afghans'. Can anyone tell me where they have acquired this belief from?

 

[ardianto]

I am very intrguied about the few refernces to the burqa having stemmed from 'Afghans'. Can anyone tell me where they have acquired this belief from?

Simple. Except in Afghanistan and some part of Pakistan, Muslimah in other places wear not burqa.

Every ethnic have their own typical clothes that different than other ethnics.

 

[KittenLover]

Simple. Except in Afghanistan and some part of Pakistan, Muslimah in other places wear not burqa.

Every ethnic have their own typical clothes that different than other ethnics.

Somalians were niqaab also and the saudi women and I know Indonesian women wear it also, and Moroccan women and egpytatian women and in maylasia

 

[CosmicPathos]

it seems the confusion is on Burka vs Abaya? To me they are the same, the only difference is in design and color. Saudi women dont wear blue Abaya while Afghani women wear Blue "parachute-like," as the haters like to say, Abaya.

 

[CosmicPathos]

:wa:

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers,


I read the Quran many times and I have never seen Allah SWT saying that women have to wear the BURKA or NIKAB.

You have to make difference betwenn wives of our prophete Mohamed SWS and muslim women in general.

Its not because some women in islamic country some women wear it that is a law of Allah SWT, its an invention from where I do not know.

I am French and the French government ban it.


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.

:wa:

I have read Quran many times too and I have seen no where Allah's command to wear hijab. From Quranic perspective alone, even covering the hair is not required. I also have seen no where Allah's command to put my trousers above my ankles, its just Arab culture if I want to be harsh. But since Prophet has said so, his words are also the reflection of Allah's commands. What his wives do, they are also a command from him to his wives.

Wallahu Aalam.
:wa:

 

[Supreme]

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a

sexist

garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

 

[MSalman]

@supreme

Is there a difference between Islamic culture and Islam? No, it is not safe to conclude that niqab is not integral part of Islam. The reason why people have differed in this thread is because many are speaking without knowledge and out of their place.

No, Burka is not sexist and nor it is harsh on women's rights. I am sure you have pictures of Marry (peace be upon her) in your house and she is covered. Do you think her covering is sexist and it is being harsh on her rights?

Why would anyone even reach the conclusion that Burka is sexist? Who decides which garment is ok for people? I mean seriously, there is a difference between what men and women wear. So on what basis one says that wearing this or that sort of clothing is sexist. When your people go on beach and women are wearing bikinis while men are wearing shorts - the below garment of women is shorter then men's; so, do you think men's clothing is sexist? When in offices men wear pants whereas women can wear short skirts, then is men's clothing sexist? When in public men can display their chest but women cannot, is women's clothing sexist?

@mystical_moon

as-salamu alaykum

sister, may Allah preserve you, my comments didn't meant to hurt your feelings. Please forgive me for Allah if my comments were harsh. I was simply correcting & advising you and I didn't say that I am perfect. It is very important that we remain silent about issues for which we have knowledge. This is our deen we are talking about

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

I think there has been quite a bit of confusion here over terminology, as different languages sometimes use different names for different types of garments. I assume this thread is about the cloak that Muslim women draw over their bodies. I'm not sure where you drew your conclusion from, but if something has been commanded in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then it is undoubtedly an integral part of Islam.

...It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”– they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”, they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This hadeeth clearly states that what the Sahaabi women mentioned here understood from this verse – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – was that they were to cover their faces, and that they tore their garments and covered their faces with them, in obedience to the command of Allaah in the verse where He said “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” which meant covering their faces. Thus the fair-minded person will understand that woman’s observing hijab and covering her face in front of men is established in the saheeh [authentic] Sunnah that explains the Book of Allaah. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) praised those women for hastening to follow the command of Allaah given in His Book. It is known that their understanding of the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” as meaning covering the face came from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because he was there and they asked him about everything that they did not understand about their religion.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/hijab

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

I'll also try to be as polite as possible. Don't you think that the exploitation of naked women or those walking scantily dressed is being harsh on their rights?

 

[Supreme]

I think there has been quite a bit of confusion here over terminology, as different languages sometimes use different names for different types of garments. I assume this thread is about the cloak that Muslim women draw over their bodies. I'm not sure where you drew your conclusion from, but if something has been commanded in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then it is undoubtedly an integral part of Islam.

We are talking about the Burka, not hijab. The outfit that covers everything but the eyes. I have two questions with regard to this:

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith (thanks for the link BTW), but if I'm not mistaken, the Hadith is the words of the prophet Muhammed, not God. Therefore, is it safe to assume it is not an integral part of Islam, and not as important as, say, the Five Pillars?
2) Seeing as the Grand Mosque is not segregated, how is it women can get away with not wearing the Burka in Islam's holiest site?

I'll also try to be as polite as possible. Don't you think that the exploitation of naked women or those walking scantily dressed is being harsh on their rights?

Before I address your questions, I actually do have one for you:

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?
Why, or rather: why not? Think about the answer, and you might actually experience some revealing thoughts.

Now, let's tackle your questions: in case the pondering of my question above hasn't granted you a certain epiphany, let me spell it out for you...

We're not faced with the dichotomy of public lingerie "malfunctions" vs. the burkha. There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes. But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

No, Burka is not sexist and nor it is harsh on women's rights. I am sure you have pictures of Marry (peace be upon her) in your house and she is covered. Do you think her covering is sexist and it is being harsh on her rights?

Even though I don't have any pictures of Mary, the covering she is wearing can only be comparable to the hijab, not the Burka.

Is there a difference between Islamic culture and Islam? No, it is not safe to conclude that niqab is not integral part of Islam. The reason why people have differed in this thread is because many are speaking without knowledge and out of their place.

In your opinion, are Muslim women who choose not to wear the Burka worse Muslims than those who choose not to?

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings Supreme,

We are talking about the Burka, not hijab. The outfit that covers everything but the eyes.

Hijab is often used as a general term to refer to the covering a Muslim woman must wear in the presence of (marriageable) men. So a Burka can be considered Hijab.

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith (thanks for the link BTW), but if I'm not mistaken, the Hadith is the words of the prophet Muhammed, not God. Therefore, is it safe to assume it is not an integral part of Islam, and not as important as, say, the Five Pillars?

No, there's a big misunderstanding here. The Hadeeth are to be taken together with the Qur'an in understanding any issue - both were inspired by Allaah (swt). So we have to obey whatever has been commanded in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. Feel free to browse our Hadeeth section for further information - here's a thread that might be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/134281408-introduction-sunnah.html

2) Seeing as the Grand Mosque is not segregated, how is it women can get away with not wearing the Burka in Islam's holiest site?

It is segregated when it comes to prayer. Which women have you seen there who are not weaking a Burka?

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?

Why, or rather: why not? Think about the answer, and you might actually experience some revealing thoughts.

Islam teaches us to dress modestly, so even men should not wear tight clothing that exposes their private parts. In short, there are guidelines for the dress code for both men and women, and we accept whatever God has commanded in this regard, and in His commands there is always wisdom and justice. It isn't a matter of what we "feel" is necessary, rather the first and foremost thing is obedience.

We're not faced with the dichotomy of public lingerie "malfunctions" vs. the burkha. There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes. But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

But you haven't answered the question. Why is it that women wearing Hijab out of choice are seen as oppressed, yet those that are forced to dress 'immodestly' for various reasons (like boosting sales) are still seen as free?

And we've already mentioned why women have to observe Hijab - what you personally believe certain men must think is irrelevant.

 

[abu salaahudeen]

i know of many women who by their own choice wear the full veil without any pressure and the women refuse to marry someone who is not as supportive of the veil.

i say good on them as its their own choice in order to please God as in opposite comparison we see many women remove most of their garments in order to please the people.

Women not wearing much clothes due to soccietal trend isnt freedom rather oppression

 

[MSalman]

so supreme has finally turned this into "why Islam commands women to cover themselves". Am I surprised, NO!

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith

according to some scholars, it has been also mentioned in the Qur'an and they use linguistic meaning and implication of those words to prove their case. Regardless of differences of opinions, the sahih Sunnah in religious matters is revelation from Allah and it is the source of Islamic rulings. I mean, we would expect people like you to know this at least. Secondly, your comparison with five pillars is so bad when nowhere it is mentioned in the Qur'an that "these are your five pillars". So on what basis do you say one is part of integral Islam and other is not when both are not found in the Qur'an?

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?

when did you become an atheist/secular? Sorry, I forgot you are a secular christian. I wonder what kind of Christian was Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him)!? Who draw the line of saying "this type and this much clothing is fine and everything else is unacceptable"? It is not up to man to decide the dress code, PERIOD!

There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes.

and who decides how much space need to be covered? Do you decide it? Or is it subjective? Or someone else?

But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

Are we talking about Islamic ruling or what certain men think!? Are you gay? If not then you should know as a man that by default we have natural inclination toward women and we love to get as many as possible to please our physical desires. There maybe some exceptions but this is a general rule. Hence, blocking the means for men to please themselves however they want is much better than allowing them to do what they naturally desire or making it easier for them. On other hand, women by nature are more shy than men.

Even though I don't have any pictures of Mary, the covering she is wearing can only be comparable to the hijab, not the Burka.

as pointed out already, hijab is a broader term which covers every aspect of dress code for women, including covering the face. Burka is specific term used for specific kind of garment. So is her clothing (being shy and dressing modestly) sexist? Why don't you apply all the above atheist/secular questions to Marry (peace be upon her) or do you love being a hypocrite and bias?

It is worthy of note that you say nothing about rest of my points

In your opinion, are Muslim women who choose not to wear the Burka worse Muslims than those who choose not to?

irrelevant question - what I personally think has no value in prophetic world. Only Allah Azza wa Jal knows who is a good Muslim and who is not and in sight of Allah better are those who have taqwa. If a sister is wearing niqab to please Allah and she is fulfilling rest of her obligations then she has higher imaan (taqwa) than a sister who is fulfilling her other obligation but don't wear niqab. and Allah knows best

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

taking whatever you want and twisting it the words around works zilch in your favor in a debate.

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

no, how so? a woman's beauty differs greatly from a males beauty...and likewise, a mans reaction towards a woman's beauty is different from a woman's reaction towards a man's beauty.
would you put your 24 carat gold jewelery on your front door step for everyone too see and and "salivate" over? i think not.

 

[Supreme]

Greetings Muhammed

Hijab is often used as a general term to refer to the covering a Muslim woman must wear in the presence of (marriageable) men. So a Burka can be considered Hijab.

True, but in this context, lets assume it is just the covering of the head.

No, there's a big misunderstanding here. The Hadeeth are to be taken together with the Qur'an in understanding any issue - both were inspired by Allaah (swt). So we have to obey whatever has been commanded in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. Feel free to browse our Hadeeth section for further information - here's a thread that might be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...on-sunnah.html (Introduction to the Sunnah)

Thanks for clearing that up. However, does Islam treat the Quran just that little bit more importantly?

It is segregated when it comes to prayer. Which women have you seen there who are not weaking a Burka?

Well, obviously I've not seen any women there, as I've never visited, however I got the idea from this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihram

Islam teaches us to dress modestly, so even men should not wear tight clothing that exposes their private parts. In short, there are guidelines for the dress code for both men and women, and we accept whatever God has commanded in this regard, and in His commands there is always wisdom and justice. It isn't a matter of what we "feel" is necessary, rather the first and foremost thing is obedience

I know, but if women should cover their faces, surely men should to?

But you haven't answered the question. Why is it that women wearing Hijab out of choice are seen as oppressed, yet those that are forced to dress 'immodestly' for various reasons (like boosting sales) are still seen as free?

I've got no issues with the Burka or the hijab, however I agree that oppression exists in Western society with women dressing up in revealing suits. However, in the West, it is not an obligation to wear revealing clothing, and that is where it differs.

And we've already mentioned why women have to observe Hijab - what you personally believe certain men must think is irrelevant.

True, but you must remember non Muslims do not believe the Hadith has much (if any) validity, much like you believe the Bible to be redundant. Therefore, would you see it a reasonable why such views exist amongst non Muslims?

 

[ardianto]

Edited to say: I think you will find, this is why country's like France are banning the burka, because they know it isn't a religious item, so banning it won't be breaking the law on religious terms.

Incorrect. France are banning burka/niqab/abaya because this 'dress cover' is a religious item. They forced secularism.

I say burka/niqab/abaya as 'dress cover' because women wear their usual dress under their burka/niqab/abaya.

 

[Supreme]

so supreme has finally turned this into "why Islam commands women to cover themselves". Am I surprised, NO!

...That was one of the first questions of the thread, so you needn't be surprised.

according to some scholars, it has been also mentioned in the Qur'an and they use linguistic meaning and implication of those words to prove their case. Regardless of differences of opinions, the sahih Sunnah in religious matters is revelation from Allah and it is the source of Islamic rulings. I mean, we would expect people like you to know this at least. Secondly, your comparison with five pillars is so bad when nowhere it is mentioned in the Qur'an that "these are your five pillars". So on what basis do you say one is part of integral Islam and other is not when both are not found in the Qur'an?

The Five Pillars are generally accepted by scholars to be the tenets of the Islamic faith. Even though the Quran does not introduce them as five pillars, it does reference each one.

when did you become an atheist/secular? Sorry, I forgot you are a secular christian. I wonder what kind of Christian was Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him)!? Who draw the line of saying "this type and this much clothing is fine and everything else is unacceptable"? It is not up to man to decide the dress code, PERIOD!

Jesus wasn't a Christian, but I can't understand the point you're making here.

and who decides how much space need to be covered? Do you decide it? Or is it subjective? Or someone else?

It isn't really subjective. A bikini is revealing. There's no subjectivity in that. A Burka is concealing. There is no subjectivity in that.

Are we talking about Islamic ruling or what certain men think!? Are you gay? If not then you should know as a man that by default we have natural inclination toward women and we love to get as many as possible to please our physical desires. There maybe some exceptions but this is a general rule. Hence, blocking the means for men to please themselves however they want is much better than allowing them to do what they naturally desire or making it easier for them. On other hand, women by nature are more shy than men.
as pointed out already, hijab is a broader term which covers every aspect of dress code for women, including covering the face. Burka is specific term used for specific kind of garment. So is her clothing (being shy and dressing modestly) sexist? Why don't you apply all the above atheist/secular questions to Marry (peace be upon her) or do you love being a hypocrite and bias?

You still don't get it, do you?
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?

It's not either/or. It's not 'either wear a Burka or be raped'. Nobody deserves to get raped, period. A person's morality dictates whether or not they're going to rape someone, not whether or not the victim is wearing a Burka. Do you honestly think rapists in prison would have given their crimes a second thought if their victims were wearing less revealing clothing (if they were wearing revealing clothing in the first place?)

irrelevant question - what I personally think has no value in prophetic world. Only Allah Azza wa Jal knows who is a good Muslim and who is not and in sight of Allah better are those who have taqwa. If a sister is wearing niqab to please Allah and she is fulfilling rest of her obligations then she has higher imaan (taqwa) than a sister who is fulfilling her other obligation but don't wear niqab. and Allah knows best

OK.

taking whatever you want and twisting it the words around works zilch in your favor in a debate.

Do remind me where I've done this.

no, how so? a woman's beauty differs greatly from a males beauty...and likewise, a mans reaction towards a woman's beauty is different from a woman's reaction towards a man's beauty.
would you put your 24 carat gold jewelery on your front door step for everyone too see and and "salivate" over? i think not.

Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.