Can God create a stone heavier than Him?

[Helena]

my brothers teacher is an atheist. the teacher told him 'can god create a stone hevier than him?' my brother replied back 'no, god cant do many things such as sleeping, eating etc.', the teacher replied with curioustiy 'but i heard that god is almighty and can do anything. my brother replied back with surprise he said:
' God told a prophet to come to him. he said to the prophet to hold a glass full of water and never let go. the prophet did not let go but he was asleep. when he woke up he found that the glass was brokrn and al of the water is gone. God said 'Do u now understand? Do u c dat if i were sleeping the world will be in chaos'. the teacher was shocked and never replied back.....lol....

this actually happend.

so wat do u think?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?


This was answered previously on the forum.

Question: Can God create a stone large enough that even He can't lift?

Answered by Ansar Al-'Adl

Atheists attempt to use this question to prove that the concept of omnipotence is self-contradictory. But the problem here is a contradiction in terms. This issue becomes even more clear when we examine a related question: "Can God create an uncreated being?" The problem here is that the questioner has already defined the being to be uncreated and then proceeds to ask for something that contradicts that definition. The problem is in the questioner's terms, not any lack in God's potential. The same is true when asking God to make a circle with four sides. Having already provided a definition of a circle that could never include a four-sided figure, such a question is absurd. Something is certainly self-contradictory here, but it is the questioner's terminology and not the omnipotence of God.

The same is true when we come to the case of create a stone which cannot be lifted. Aside from the problem that we are placing an infinite unrestricted being under the finite restricted laws of our universe, the concept of the stone is self-contradictory. Basically, such a stone could not exist. When one asks if God could create such a stone, one would normally identify the properties of such a stone. But here we haven't been given absoloute properties, but instead we've been given properties of the stone relative to God's properties. The questioner has identified the potential stone as something so big that God couldn't lift, so even though we already know that there is nothing God cannot lift, they have used that as an attribute for the stone. Automatically, the concept of such a stone is nullfied. Now, when they ask could God create such a stone, the answer is no, but that doesn't imply a lack of potential on the part of God. Instead, it reflects the fact that the concept of such a stone is illogical, unreal, inadmissable. It is very similar to asking if God can die. Well, death isn't an ability, its the inability to live. The immortal cannot die because that defies His attribute of immortality. Similarly, the omnipotent cannot create a task that He can't complete because such a task is merely a figment of one's imagination and could not exist.

You're basically asking, if God can do anything, can He make it impossible for himself to do something? The question is illogical and self-contradictory because the argument contradicts the premise. Once you have already established that God can do anything, then that's a set attribute and part of His nature. Therefore, He can do anything that is consistent with His nature, anything that is absolute.

Can God make 1=2? Well if 1=2, then it wouldn't be 1! So the idea is self-contradictory, not God.

The question also reminds me of the idea of what happens when an immovable rock meets an unstoppable force? The two things cannot exist in the same universe. Likewise, if God exists then all things which contradict His attributes are imaginary, non-existant and impossible. They are forever bound to the realm of imagination and cannot be brought into existence.

Shaykh Ibn Abil-'Izz (d. 1389CE) also answered this question in Sharhul Aqeedatit Tahaawiyyah (p.137), in his discussion of the following verse:

And Allah, over each thing, is omnipotent; all-powerful [al-Baqarah 2:284]

This includes all that is possible. As for what is in intrinsically impossible - such as there being a thing that exists and does not exist at one and the same time - then, this has no reality, nor is its existence conceivable, nor is it termed 'a thing' by agreement of those with intelligence. Included in this category is: [Allah] creating the likes of Himself, making Himself non-existent, and other impossibilites.

This also serves as a reply to the question posed by some: 'Can Allah create a stone that He is unable to lift?' The argument being that if Allah cannot create such a stone, He is not all-powerful; but if He can, then likewise He is not all-powerful. The fallacy of this argument lies in the fact that such an affair is, in itself, impossible and exists only in the minds of certain people. And not all that the mind conjures-up has an existence that is possible, nor is it always termed 'a thing.'​

Hopefully that makes the issue clear.

And Allah knows best.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

I like your answer Ansar. But I'm not 100% sure that that is the case.
You're right in analysing the problem as:

You're basically asking, if God can do anything, can He make it impossible for himself to do something?

Thinking out loud here, I'd say omnipotence means he CAN make it imposible for himself to do something. Is that contradicting with omnipotence? I don't think so. See If Allah would create such a stone, and he then cannot lift it, it is not because his omnipotence is limited, but because he chose to create it in that way. In other words; omnipotence theoretically means that one has the ability to waive his omnipotence.

Let me try to explain that with another example. Let's say you offer me an apple, and I refuse it. I now no longer have the posibility of getting that apple, not because you didn't offer it, nor because I cannot take up your offer, but simply because I already refused it. Whenever you choose to do something in one way, you loose the posibility to do it the other way. Remember that being consequent and sticking with ones choises isn't necesairly a weakness. This has nothing to do with potence, but rather goes hand in hand with choice.

So in conclusion the flaw in the question is not just a misunderstanding of the concept of the mentioned stone or the notion of omnipotence I think it's also flawed by a lousy interpretation of choice.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

steve,
Thanks for your post, I always appreciate your comments and feedback.

Thinking out loud here, I'd say omnipotence means he CAN make it imposible for himself to do something. Is that contradicting with omnipotence? I don't think so. See If Allah would create such a stone, and he then cannot lift it, it is not because his omnipotence is limited, but because he chose to create it in that way. In other words; omnipotence theoretically means that one has the ability to waive his omnipotence.

Let's take a look at another example: Can God become a trinity? Since the notion of the trinity is logically incoherent and self-conntradictory (this is being debated here) I would say that this is not possible, not because of any limitation in God's omnipotence but because the idea itself is self-contradictory and illogical.

So in the question concerning the stone, the quality of the stone given is that "it should be too heavy for God to lift". Since God is omnipotent, this quality is impossible, and consequently there is no possible way for such a stone to be created, not because God has any limitations on His power, but because such a stone is self-contradictory and could not exist.

This is the explanation I find most satisfactory in explaining this issue.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

So in the question concerning the stone, the quality of the stone given is that "it should be too heavy for God to lift". Since God is omnipotent, this quality is impossible, and consequently there is no possible way for such a stone to be created, not because God has any limitations on His power, but because such a stone is self-contradictory and could not exist.

Yes I forgot explaining that. Look at it this way: The task is not building a stone thats imposible to lift even with omnipotence; but rather to build a stone and then to waive some of ones own omnipotence so the stone can no longer be lifted. So theoreticly its possible if you think outside th box. Everythings possible with omnipotence. The thing to remember here is that omnipotence isn't flawed by nature.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?


How does Allah 'waive' His omnipotence? Does He retain the ability to bring it back? If so, then He wasn't really waiving it, was He?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

First of All, let me make it clear I'm not trying to pass anything as an ability of Allah. I'm just discussing the notion of omnipotence. He has knowledge and we do not.

But philosophicly speaking; the term omnipotence (being able to do anything) implies the posibility to limit ones own abilitys. That's what the question is based on. But that doesn't mean omnipotence is flawed by nature. That only means acting upon a choise comes with a consequence. So yes; also waiving the ability to "take it back". But let me bounce that ball back: If you were omnipotent and all knowing, would you suddenly change your mind? So why would you suddenly want to take it back?

 

[Chuck]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

You can look at this way, why would God create another god equal in power or even with a remote possibility to takeover Him, when He knows this will create chaos?

 

[sumay28]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

We need to take special care when talking about Allah's abilities. It can be dangerous.

 

[Helena]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?



guys i was just trying to show a example so you can explain or debate this matter with the athiest!! Be carefull wot we are talking about!! It seems as if ive created a conflict between u guys!! Sorry about that!!!

It was just a example, so u can expand abit more or just comment it inshalah!!

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Can God create a stone heavier than him?

If someone asked me this question, athiest or not, my reply would be:

'Why don't you ask Him?'

 

[dockies]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Allah alone knows

 

[akulion]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Space and dimensions do not apply to God

If God were to create a thing, he would still be the CREATOR thus would hold the power to destroy it as well and that creation would not be beyond God himself.

The question itself is one of those Questions which Allah swt fortold that the Shaytan will cause mankind to speak about God things which they know not.

If we were to even consider this question then we put limits on God. The dimensions of space, time, height, diameter, weight, etc are ONLY applicable to THIS world and are NOT applicable to God.

God can speak without the need of a tongue
He can see without the need for eyes

So pretty simply put - Understanding the true nature of God is beyond the limited comprehension of mankind and asking such questions only demonstrates a persons inability to comprehend the Greatness of Allah.

If anyone can refute my argument that mankind has limited comprehension then I challenge anyone on this EARTH who can come to me with the indepth knowledge of every single feild of study.......which quite frankly is impossible for humans

 

[akulion]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Oh and most importantly I forgot to mention what the Prophet(sa) said...

When Allah created everything it did not deminish anything from his might or kingdom.

And if Allah were to destroy everything it would not diminish anything from his Kingdom.

So quite frankly Allah can do anything but it wont change the fact that he is God

 

[Snowflake]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?



Well, If my memory isn't failing me, things are only heavy to us because of the force of gravity. So in space there is no mass, therefore no matter how big the stone it would be weightless.

Anyway what a stupid question. It's like cutting ur nose off to spite your face!

 

[Chuck]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Br. akulion, good answer!

 

[Eric H]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Greetings and peace helena;

him 'can god create a stone hevier than him?'

Forget the stone, search for a greater question,

Can God love each one of us more than he loves himself?

As to your atheist friend, there are two possibilities God the creator of the universe exists fully and totally, or there is no God at all.

Irrespective of what we choose to believe we cannot change the truth, sadly neither side can prove the truth fully.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

How can it be stupid question?? wen i askd da question, i gave a example with it! To show wot i mean!! Muslims lyk us can debate wid athiest, if we gt approachd!

First tym some one has dat to me, im really..................

am just trying to solve the matter, not create it!! sis nadia waheed!!

don't worry it's not like this really caused any problems, me an ansar just like going into these matters for the sake of discussing. And as I already said, I'm not trying to pass anything off as abilitys of Allah, I'm just discussing the notion of omnipotence in theory.

 

[akulion]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

brothers and sisters

We always seem to forget one fundamental fact about human beings...and that is:

We are microscopic beings when taken in the reality of this entire universe Just imagine how small we are And yet in our limited comprehension power we assume we are the smartest and greatest

So how can we speak so carelessly about God and his magnificance - I have no doubt in my mind or heart that such statements are only from the Shaytan, whispers to make mankind go astray and say things which we have no knowledge of and neither can we hope to possess knowledge of. And Allah swt says in the Quran

Chapter 17
53 Say to My servants that they should (only) say those things that are best: for Satan doth sow dissensions among them: for Satan is to man an avowed enemy.

So let us be mindful and speak very carefully about such issues because even the Prophet(sa) warned us that none can comprehend God.

Let us not forget our place that we are simply a creation of God

 

[Faust]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

God does not waste His time. As even an Infidel ( myself) will affirm. God doesnt usually do the absurd or the ridiculous. God is the foudation of Truth, therefore He doesnt spend a lot of his efforts striking matches on wet bars of soap, if you will pardon the metaphor. Meaning and PURPOSE are His big forte.

Reality has Seven primary characteristics and attention to BS is not one of them.

Squandering our time on the question of whether God wastes his time is just an illustration of our own lack of insight and pssing away out faith on useless things. If I were God ( which you better be glad I am not) I would be offended by such questions. It smacks of making fun of God. I am sure he has a reward for that somewhere. Right next to the hammer and the stairs.

Atheists? Those guys? Can you spell the word FOOL, Betsy?

Atheists are deserving of what they ask for....which is a long drop in a deep hole. Atheism inherits what it is, troops. You will never hear them hit bottom.

Here is a better question: What is Paradise? What would YOU like to find in Paradise? What is your image of Paradise? An Eternal cant get bored absolutely fine place with lots of focused meaning and fine reality in the very teeth. Some say its beautiful girls. Some say a feast and a big spread. Some simply dont say much and frown at you and pound on the Book.

I am not sure what I would say about Paradise ( I have never been there) and my imagination is not either wise or well prepared. I know that I have stood in a high place and looked across wilderness that was green and seemed to have no end, full of land rich land, trees and mountains and rivers and all of it unexplored. A world waiting and no man there before me.

I dont want a lot of people in my Paradise. So I would hope Paradise was so huge and large that I would have to go for about 2,000 miles to find anybody at all.

I want big bears in Paradise. I want big mean bears. I want fast rivers and good fishing. I want winters and Summers and Springs and falls...seasons. I want to hunt my dinner every day. I dont want to farm or build a skyscraper.
I want to build a bow that will throw an arrow 200 yards. I want to be so good I can shoot a bear right in his eye. I want to skin him and laugh.

Do you suppose I could find the far side of the Continent if I left today and kept walking for two years? I want that kind of Paradise.

No maps. Eternal Life and no maps.