Can God create a stone heavier than Him?

[Mohsin]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?



Zakir Naiks given a good answer regarding a similar question, when he's asked why God can't take human form since he can do everything.
His reply is that nowhere does Allah actually say he can do everything. Like he can't be a tall short man, or a fat thin man. He then says re. can god lie or eat etc. He says god can do these human things, but the moment he does do this, he refues to be god, because he's lost his godly qualities and so although God can do some of these things he would never do it
Its like the questions athiests pose; Can God create anything? Yes, Can God destroy anything? Yes, then can God create anything that he can't destroy. So using this logic with this question about a stone being heavier than god, you can say God can create it, but when he does he gives up being god, cos that way he'd longer be perfect, thats why god wouldn't do it, even though he can.

Anyways, me persoanlly, i think that God is so infinite and powerful and unique that he can do everything in his infite power. It's like that ayaah in the Qur'an regarding the camel passing through the eye of the needle, i heard a short bayaan by a brother on God's greatness and how he can do anything, he can put a camel through the eye of the needle, he won't need to shrink the camel, or increase the eye, in his infinite power he can put the camel as it is, through the eye of the needle as it is, since he is all powerful and super

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

We are microscopic beings when taken in the reality of this entire universe Just imagine how small we are And yet in our limited comprehension power we assume we are the smartest and greatest

Correct, but that doesn’t mean we cannot try to understand.

So how can we speak so carelessly about God and his magnificance - I have no doubt in my mind or heart that such statements are only from the Shaytan, whispers to make mankind go astray and say things which we have no knowledge of and neither can we hope to possess knowledge of. And Allah swt says in the Quran

I disagree. I’ve actually met (unbelieving) people who were sincere in looking for answers but struggled with similar questions like this. Us muslims have a responsibility in helping them, but if we cannot even discuss this amongst our self how can we explain these things to them? So what you suggest is we can say Allah is omnipotent, but we cannot discuss exactly what that means? That’s the same thing as saying: “we can say Allah is the most mercifull, but we cannot discuss what mercifulness means …”

Chapter 17
53 Say to My servants that they should (only) say those things that are best: for Satan doth sow dissensions among them: for Satan is to man an avowed enemy.

Yes we do need to be careful, but you can’t just run away from a discussion because it’s dangerous! I would say leaving questions unanswered can lead to bigger strays then answering them does! I did state 2 times that I did not intend to pass anything off as a characteristic of Allah but was simply discussing the notion of omnipotence.

 

[akulion]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Salam Alaikum brother Steve

The fact remains that the Prophet himself instructed Muslims to be careful with regards to saying things pertaining to Islam that Allah or his Prophet has not given them knowledge on otherwise it will lead to innovation.

We can discuss all we want but then we have to undersand where our knowledge on wether Allah can create a rock bigger than him or not coming from?

Have we recieved any revelations which others did not?

It has been made clear in the Quran that is why my recommendation to everyone was not to stop discussion but rather be careful in the things we are saying.

The shaytan whispers into the minds and hearts of mankind Questions many times to which they cannot get answers due to the limitations upon our comprehension and as a result we humans start to use conjecture and speculation to come up with answers.

So please dont be offended this was meant to be a friendly post for people to watch their words insha'Allah...

My line of argument is derived from the following verses in the Quran:

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Al-Quran, Chapter 23 Al-Muminun, Verse 52-68

On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.

But their hearts are in confused ignorance of this; and there are besides that deeds of theirs which they will (continue) to do

Until when We seize in Punishment those of them who received the good things of this world behold they will groan in supplication!

It will be said: "Groan not in supplication this day; for ye shall certainly not be helped by Us.

"My Signs used to be rehearsed to you but ye used to turn back on your heels"

"In arrogance: talking nonsense about the (Qur'an) like one telling fables by night."

Do they not ponder over the Word (of Allah) or has anything (new) come to them that did not come to their fathers of old?
---------------------------------------------------

So once again please do not be offended by my post but rather let us all watch everything we say regarding the nature of Allah since it is something which we truly have very limited knowledge on.

 

[Tilmeez]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

The original question was: Can Allah Ta'la creat a stone big enough that he can not lift it. This and other of such type questions were used to mislead the simple muslims from their Imman and to cultivate doubt with regards to Allah. In Math (if some knows) there is a formula called Test of Hypothysis. if you put this question on logical basis it is wrong in itself. Let me explain it... Allah is Qa'dir (Can do EVERY thing). if you say yes to this question of course you deny:Allah is Qa'dir or otherwise you come to the same result. so this question is worng. I believe. For give me for the shortage of time i could not read the whole conversation.
other such questions are: Can Allah pass camles through the hole of needle? if yes then how many at a time. Can angles sit on the tip of needle if yes then how many at a time??? etc.....

Allah know the best.

Tilmeez

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Wa aleykum selam
Don’t worry brother akulion, I wasn’t offended by your post, I simply disagree with you, but that’s what forums are for aren’t they? To talk to people with different ideas and opinions. What you say is all absolutely right, but I don’t think it applies to this discussion. Yes, one should always be careful with the things they say; even more when talking about religion, and even more when talking about Allah(s.w.t.) That goes without saying. But that doesn’t mean you have to avoid conversation, especially not if this is something that leads people away from religion, because then it’s important to find an answer to guide them back.

You could be right that these questions are whispers from shaytan. But be not discussing them, Shaytan is not going to stop whispering. In fact it has the opposite effect. If everybody avoids discussing these matters, then the whispers are the only opinion people can resort to regarding this matter. So you see how it’s important to discus this?

And yes, we cannot say things about Allah that we have no knowledge of, but we do know he is omnipotent right? I’m not picking this out of thin air.

Al-Qahhaar: The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.

 

[PrIM3]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Hello Steve and peace.

this question that some athiest and some that don't believe in a God at all ask...
well to this I say--
God in the Christian view is Omnipotent- God can do anything that doesn't VIOLATE his nature. He is all-powerful except by his own choice.

God bless

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Well yes, that's exactly what I said, "exept by his own choice"
So if he could theoretically create this stone; that does not mean that his omnipotence is flawed. Because the reason he cannot lift it is not due to a lack of power but because he chose it to be so.

 

[akulion]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Well bro if you want to discuss ur welcome to

but just remember "the vanity of humanity lies in the fact that we believe we know the answers to everything"

Insha'allah its best to sometimes say, "Only Allah knows"

 

[aamirsaab]

Bumping

 

[Keltoi]

I will just take the easy route and suggest God can do anything that He wishes to do. When we get into the realm of attempting to describe what God might wish to do, it gets pointless.

 

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu and Greetings.

Allah Taala tells us that "Allah Taala is capable of doing anything that He Wills to do." He can make a rock (or anything for that matter) that is so large or heavy that nothing in the entire universe can move it. As regards Allah Taala "moving" it, He is not in the universe and He does not resemble His creation. Therefore, Allah Taala is never subject to the Laws of the Creation because He is both the Creator and the Law Giver. Whenever He wants anything done, He merely says "Qun! Faya Qun!" (Be! And so it will be!)

 

[Pygoscelis]

'Do u now understand? Do u c dat if i were sleeping the world will be in chaos'.

So God chooses not to do it. That doesn't mean he is incapable of doing it. If God is all powerful then by definition he can do anything. If there is anything that God can not do then he is not all powerful. It is really that simple.

Another similar question I like to ponder is "Can God retire?" Can he decide to stop being god? If not, then he's not all powerful. But if so, then he'd stop being all powerful if he did it.

 

[aamirsaab]

So God chooses not to do it. That doesn't mean he is incapable of doing it. If God is all powerful then by definition he can do anything. If there is anything that God can not do then he is not all powerful. It is really that simple.

Another similar question I like to ponder is "Can God retire?" Can he decide to stop being god? If not, then he's not all powerful. But if so, then he'd stop being all powerful if he did it.

See these:
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...create-stone-heavier-than-him.html#post159715

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...create-stone-heavier-than-him.html#post159885

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Can God create a stoneheavier than him?

Well, If my memory isn't failing me, things are only heavy to us because of the force of gravity. So in space there is no mass, therefore no matter how big the stone it would be weightless.

As regards Allah Taala "moving" it, He is not in the universe and He does not resemble His creation. Therefore, Allah Taala is never subject to the Laws of the Creation because He is both the Creator and the Law Giver. Whenever He wants anything done, He merely says "Qun! Faya Qun!" (Be! And so it will be!)

I like these simple answers best.

An analogy is having in our minds that Allah created the universe in six 24 hour periods that we know from our human perspective as days. This is also in error because it places Allah on the earth with it rotating on its axis relative to the sun all of the while the universe was in the process of being created. Heaviness has meaning only in relation to gravity and, with all of its vastness, the universe still does not contain Allah.

Attempts at philosophically explaining in other ways is treading on thin ice.

 

[Mohammed K]

Asslamu Alaikkum

Can God create another God?
Can God die?
Can God lie?
Can God limit himself to be a human?
More importantly, can God be an atheist?

I think there are many things God cannot be and cannot do. It is not because God cannot do it or be it, but it is because God does only Godly things. That’s why he is God. Otherwise he would be something else. Most of the time such questions comes from atheists and sometimes from Christians. Christians do use the question 'Is love a quality of God?', to prove trinity with the explanation 'for love to express, it need more than one being from eternal' etc. I saw it in few Christian - Muslim debates. In response, we can ask the Christians questions like ‘If it is God who created heavens and the earth, where was God before that?’ like the Muslim scholar did in the debate. For atheists, I would ask questions like ‘Can you answer me in YES/NO for the question ‘did your wife stop beating you?’ if the atheist a married man.

It is good learn to face such questions and hope the thread may help in it.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

So God chooses not to do it. That doesn't mean he is incapable of doing it. If God is all powerful then by definition he can do anything. If there is anything that God can not do then he is not all powerful. It is really that simple.

Another similar question I like to ponder is "Can God retire?" Can he decide to stop being god? If not, then he's not all powerful. But if so, then he'd stop being all powerful if he did it.

The answer is very simple: "Yes he can create it; and no it's not a flaw that he cannot lift it.". The problem is choice. An omnipotent being surely has the potential to lift any stone, but also the potential to wave his own potential by choice! So the reason he cannot lift the stone then is not because the being was never capable of lifting it in the first place, but rather because he chose to forfeit his ability to lift it whilst creating the stone. The same goes for the retirement.
Of course philosophers could make a variation to the question to bypass my counter-argument. A situation where the reason for not being able to lift it is better speculated. More precisely, so the characteristics of the stone is not linked directly to the creator, like: Can one omnipotent being create something that is to heavy for another omnipotent being to lift? Here the question is unreasonable, the characteristics of the stone are contradicting. He is asking if omnipotence can make the impossible possible. He might just as well have asked, can an omnipotent being create water that isn't wet, or squared circles. At best, the only thing this question could illustrate is that the existence of two different omnipotent beings is problematic since the omnipotence of one would include limiting the other's omnipotence and vice versa.

 

[Azy]

The answer is very simple: "Yes he can create it; and no it's not a flaw that he cannot lift it.". The problem is choice. An omnipotent being surely has the potential to lift any stone, but also the potential to wave his own potential by choice!

You're talking about choice, not ability. I don't think anyone would disagree that God could choose not to do something, but that's not the same as being unable to do that thing under any circumstances.

The initial question is one of the most well known regarding God, and one of the most annoying for me because it could and should be a better one... it might have been interesting before people were aware of the real scale of things.
All I can think of when someone asks that question is a floating rock with galaxies stuck to it's surface like grains of sand, of course under normal circumstances something that massive would collapse on itself and tear the universe a new backside, but I suppose when we're talking about omnipotence the normal rules are suspended.

So moving big rocks isn't a problem. I'm curious about the related question "what does God use for propulsion?" i.e. how does he manipulate these things without leaving a trace.

Other pertinent questions might be, as Mohammed K proposed, can God lie? Does He?
Can he be supremely callous and unjust, unmerciful?

People will say no he can't because those are not Godly attributes. That is assuming that human descriptions of God are correct or that God's descriptions of himself in holy texts are correct. Can God lie about that? Of course he could if he wanted to, and who is any man to say they know the mind of God and say he would not do so.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Azy

You're talking about choice, not ability. I don't think anyone would disagree that God could choose not to do something, but that's not the same as being unable to do that thing under any circumstances.

I disagree, I'd say that choice and ability is intermixed, even more so for an omnipotent being. If you choose to be the most mercifully, you become unable of being extremely unmercifully due to consistency. Not because you don't have that ability, but simply because you have already chosen to forfeit the ability. Maybe you should clarify which semantical definition of "being able" you have in mind. For example, I could say I am able to kill a person. And hypothetically speaking you are right, I have the mental ingenuity to form a murder plan, and the physical capacity to execute it. However if you look at the bigger picture, then the hypothesis is false. I suspect that I am not truly able to kill simply because I lack a good motive to kill and because my morality and conscience prevents me from actually murdering. I could argue that thus I am not truly "able" in real life. In other words, "being able" to me means more then just having physical ability, it also means having psychological willpower to follow trough.

So moving big rocks isn't a problem. I'm curious about the related question "what does God use for propulsion?" i.e. how does he manipulate these things without leaving a trace.

Well, God causes the laws of nature, so it depends on which way he desires to lift it. By causal ways (applying a physical force to it) or much simpler by seizing to enforce gravity at that location.

 

[Azy]

Howdy Steve

I disagree, I'd say that choice and ability is intermixed, even more so for an omnipotent being. If you choose to be the most mercifully, you become unable of being extremely unmercifully due to consistency. Not because you don't have that ability, but simply because you have already chosen to forfeit the ability. Maybe you should clarify which semantical definition of "being able" you have in mind. For example, I could say I am able to kill a person. And hypothetically speaking you are right, I have the mental ingenuity to form a murder plan, and the physical capacity to execute it. However if you look at the bigger picture, then the hypothesis is false. I suspect that I am not truly able to kill simply because I lack a good motive to kill and because my morality and conscience prevents me from actually murdering. I could argue that thus I am not truly "able" in real life. In other words, "being able" to me means more then just having physical ability, it also means having psychological willpower to follow trough.

You're right in that any one person in their normal day to day life probably doesn't have the motivation or willpower to do something they normally wouldn't, but I don't see how a lack of willpower or motivation poses a problem to an omnipotent being.

I also don't see how being merciful one day and unmerciful the next means you cannot be the 'most' merciful.
If God's been around for millennia being merciful to billions of people I don't think there can be anyone else in the running for the Most Merciful title, even if he's been extremely unmerciful along the way.
Of course even if we assume he's never done an unmerciful thing in all of history that doesn't change the fact that he is perfectly capable of being unmerciful tomorrow.

Well, God causes the laws of nature, so it depends on which way he desires to lift it. By causal ways (applying a physical force to it) or much simpler by seizing to enforce gravity at that location.

We would notice this as an event without any apparent cause. If God gives people a little helping hand here and there then he must have been very careful to avoid being seen, or not do it near any kind of detection equipment.
I suppose it also renders conservation of energy laws pointless, or physical laws of any kind.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Azy

Howdy Steve
You're right in that any one person in their normal day to day life probably doesn't have the motivation or willpower to do something they normally wouldn't, but I don't see how a lack of willpower or motivation poses a problem to an omnipotent being.

Well it's not just a practical article issue. The correlation between willpower and capabilities actually goes a lot deeper. The questions assumes that God would first want to create something that he cannot lift, and that he would then want to lift it afterall! Why would God want inconsistent things? OR why would he change his mind? When someone is omniscient, no new information is ever revealed (since you already know everything there is to know) so that means you are never promoted to reconsider. Again the same conclusion, the flaw lies not in the concept of omnipotence, but rather in the hypothesis of the question. The same goes for God being the most merciful. Why would God suddenly change? And if God is perfect and he changes, would that make him imperfect? I think the problem is you're trying to reflect human psychology into your idea of how God would think/act.

As for the sneaking around not to be noticed, if you believe God created the world and anything in it, and constantly maintains and upholds the laws of physics, then that creates a different picture. For example, as you are reading this, God Is showing his mercy to you, by enforcing the strong force and electromagnetic force that respectively keep your atoms and molecules together. And I bet he did it without you noticing it.