But didn't the "Israelites" go around conquering and killing other tribes in the name of the "One True God". Didn't Jesus (PBUH) preach tolerance and love and that is why he was hated by the ruling "Israelites"? So that is why Islam is better than the Old Testament because it has the messages of the Messiah within it.
Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?
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But didn't the "Israelites" go around conquering and killing other tribes in the name of the "One True God". Didn't Jesus (PBUH) preach tolerance and love and that is why he was hated by the ruling "Israelites"? So that is why Islam is better than the Old Testament because it has the messages of the Messiah within it.
The Israelites conquered and killed other tribes when necessary, just as Muhammad and early Islam did. The Israelites were tolerant of other tribes that didn't threaten them. For example in Jeremiah 35, God tells Jeremiah to respect the Rechabites (another tribe/people) because they are good people who keep to their traditions. I think there is a lot in common between the early Israelites and early Islam.
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@fshmidt
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] , I have read through the pages, all though some comments not in detail to be honest, what i found reading the comments especially the comments that you posted.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Your heart (desires) lies in the Old Testament. When ones heart lies somewhere else, an individual will try to find whatever excuse there is to still want to follow what his heart desires. This whole topic has not been about the intellectual debate whatsoever. By default brother, you already have "won" this whole discussion with other brothers and sisters. As many times we ourselves want to justify our decision by lying to ourselves as.. "i have had the intellectual discussion and those guys had nothing to bring against my argument", while in fact you already had your answer so to say and want to "convince" your mind also that you were right and others were wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An individual is ALWAYS right when the heart is involved in the discussion. As whatever is being used as an argument against the argument of this individual somehow the heart finds something to twist it. You will see that that individual will NEVER agree ..and i mean NEVER!![/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]This for example you see also with many atheists as well. Their desires (hopes) are in finding this "missing link" and science is the ONLY answer forward. However a conclusion is made based on factual evidence and NOT something abstract as hope. The other day i was reading some reviews about a book "The message from water" - Masru Emoto. A review looked very more like it was from an atheist, said that he found it was a bad book, because the author/scientist was doing all kind of prayers and see the outcome of the crystals in the water. If it for example would change the crystals. While he(reviewer) wanted to see the "scientific aspect" of it, while by logic one could say this reviewer doesn't even know what science is all about. Somebody who brands him or herself a student of knowledge is open for all the knowledge. That individual who wrote the review, would not even ponder about ..that indeed is odd that water reacts on good words and bad words and on prayers etc. This because the individuals heart already is fixed on nothing to have to do with religion, rather "science" is the answer and will ONLY answer everything. While science is all around is, but that individual wants "HIS/HER" version of "science".[/FONT]
This is my observation of your current situation, do please ponder about what i have just said. As it will not effect me, i will go in my grave and you will go in your grave. Hopefully you will have some benefit from my comment, if you say "no, i don't" then treat it as if i did not comment at all.
Peace
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Your heart (desires) lies in the Old Testament. When ones heart lies somewhere else, an individual will try to find whatever excuse there is to still want to follow what his heart desires. This whole topic has not been about the intellectual debate whatsoever. By default brother, you already have "won" this whole discussion with other brothers and sisters. As many times we ourselves want to justify our decision by lying to ourselves as.. "i have had the intellectual discussion and those guys had nothing to bring against my argument", while in fact you already had your answer so to say and want to "convince" your mind also that you were right and others were wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An individual is ALWAYS right when the heart is involved in the discussion. As whatever is being used as an argument against the argument of this individual somehow the heart finds something to twist it. You will see that that individual will NEVER agree ..and i mean NEVER!![/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]This for example you see also with many atheists as well. Their desires (hopes) are in finding this "missing link" and science is the ONLY answer forward. However a conclusion is made based on factual evidence and NOT something abstract as hope. The other day i was reading some reviews about a book "The message from water" - Masru Emoto. A review looked very more like it was from an atheist, said that he found it was a bad book, because the author/scientist was doing all kind of prayers and see the outcome of the crystals in the water. If it for example would change the crystals. While he(reviewer) wanted to see the "scientific aspect" of it, while by logic one could say this reviewer doesn't even know what science is all about. Somebody who brands him or herself a student of knowledge is open for all the knowledge. That individual who wrote the review, would not even ponder about ..that indeed is odd that water reacts on good words and bad words and on prayers etc. This because the individuals heart already is fixed on nothing to have to do with religion, rather "science" is the answer and will ONLY answer everything. While science is all around is, but that individual wants "HIS/HER" version of "science".[/FONT]
This is my observation of your current situation, do please ponder about what i have just said. As it will not effect me, i will go in my grave and you will go in your grave. Hopefully you will have some benefit from my comment, if you say "no, i don't" then treat it as if i did not comment at all.
Peace
I even have a theory on that. Islam is the repeat of Israelites after a 2000 years period. I am planning to start a thread for this specific topic in future.
But my question to you, do you believe in God? You say you follow Old Testament instead of evil modern culture but is your purpose of doing this only for a moral life or do you really believe in God? Please don't misunderstand me, I just want to understand what you believe.
And if you believe in God and that Old Testament was revealed by God, do you also believe Quran was revealed by "the same God"? Excuse me if you have already revealed these things previously. I couldn not read all posts.
So they were pretty much like the USA then? That's why so many "Israelites" live there.
This wasn't intended for debate. I am trying to get answers, to see what is possible. My first question was whether one can follow the Old Testament in Islam, and the answer that I got was NO. My second question was whether one can follow the Old Testament and Islam separately. I have seen no strong objections to this, I think the answer is YES. Of course one will take precedence. In my case, I will follow the Old Testament and follow some aspects of the Quran, and not become Muslim. And in the case of Muslims, I hope they at least try to get some understanding of the Old Testament and follow those aspects of it that they find helpful to them.
I believe in God, but my concept of God is probably very far from most here. Coming from an atheistic scientific background, I see God as a force of nature (or possibly all combined forces of nature). This force supports moral cultures and destroys immoral cultures. The existance of this force is clearly evident in history. And this force is very accurately described in the Old Testament by means of personifying it. I do not believe in heaven or hell or in the day of judgement. None of these things are in the Old Testament. The Old Testament clearly says that the reward for moral behavior is the future success of that society.
For me, to say that something is revealed by God is like saying that science is revealed by nature. True science that is revealed by nature has the power to predict experimental results. True scripture that is revealed by God has the power to produce successful moral societies. So by this measure, the Old Testament and the Quran were revealed by (the same) God.
One thing that God-based religions seem to agree on is that God is beyond understanding. This should make it acceptable for different people to have different understandings of God, as long as they all try to do God's will where doing God's will is defined as doing what God supports and avoiding what God punishes.
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Brother, your reply to brother [MENTION=16149]anatolian[/MENTION] says exactly what i mean by referring to your desires what you want it to be the truth. In that reply you say this
"I believe in God, but my concept of God is probably very far from most here. Coming from an atheistic scientific background, I see God as a force of nature (or possibly all combined forces of nature)." ".....I do not believe in heaven or hell or in the day of judgement..." "...For me, to say that something is revealed by God is like saying that science is revealed by nature...."
Look at the parts that i made bold these parts clearly show a subjective view (desires) of what YOU want it to be. I was myself a born Muslim and i became an atheist. After being a atheist for 7 years i started to ask questions, because as you said, society and the rulings in society were going against basic human nature. As an example, breaking your heart because of love..seems something "natural" to society, but logically speaking..it is strange that this can be branded as something natural.
The question off course is, WHY did i end up with Islam in the end? I do not follow what I want to be this or that. I follow PURE logic, rationality and reason. The concept of this logic, rationality and reason is kind of easy to be honest.
You look in to the scriptures and if you are not a scholar yourself, you look at debates between religions as in debates certain critical questions are being asked. When those questions are being asked, i listen to the answer and i ponder about the answer. If for example celibacy is mentioned as being something part of religion, i say..this cannot be, as this goes against the basic human nature of desiring intimacy. It is NOT what i want it to be, of course being able to practice celibacy would be a stress free life without all the worries in life with your spouse ;D, but i look at logic, rationality and reason. These says..NO, desiring intimacy is part of the human nature. So, every religion that literally practices celibacy automatically falls off the list of being PURELY the truth. Truth partly might indeed contain in that religion, but not in full.
Doing this with all kind of questions/answers and looking at them from a logical, rational and reasonable point of view with scientific evidence if available, brought me in the end to Islam. BTW, i also look the same way with atheism and agnosticism.
So now again the question, do i follow what I WANT the religion to be? Nope. Because if it was up to me..i would have LOVED to not have a Day of Judgement like you, but it is not what i want, it is what logic, rationality and reason brings you to.
You think Islam is easy? Brother, Islam is the MOST difficult religion on this face of earth in the PRESENT times..in the past maybe less, but in the present day. Because Islam teaches you to turn 180 degrees the other way, and don't do certain things that you for example were doing. Like if one would LOVE to gossip as gossiping gives you the ability to make friends easily and connect with people. However, although this might be one of the most difficult religions in the present day, it is the truth based on logic, rationality and reason and your heart becomes content in NOT doing for example those things.
So Islam is all about surrender yourself, in everything. You give up all the things, not for the sake of giving up, but also are encouraged to seek out WHY you should give up certain things. As to all of the things that Islam prohibits of doing or encouraged in to doing, there is wisdom behind it.
Do what you "want" to do, but my advice to you is be a bit more critical in your choice as when you end up in your grave and you suddenly realizes that indeed your life you have only been pursuing what YOU want things to be, the story become rather more complicated if after death wasn't what YOU wanted to be.
Peace
I don't choose my beliefs based on what I want to believe. I may want to believe that I am young and handsome, but I know otherwise. I choose my beliefs based on what I consider most likely to be true. That is my only criteria.
Different people can seek truth with equal honesty and come to different conclusions. This is simply the result of the fact that different people think differently.
I agree with you about celibacy. God (and evolution) said to be fruitful and multiply. Celibacy violates this. So I agree to cross off my list those religions that support celibacy.
On the other hand, I see no evidence in support of the Day of Judgement. This is actually my biggest problem with the Quran (because it stresses this idea). All of the ideas in the Old Testament have external evidence supporting them from science or history. The Day of Judgement has no such supporting evidence. But note that I am agnostic on this question in the sense that there is no evidence against the idea of a Day of Judgement either.
Islam may not be easy, but I think my religion is harder. It is very hard to follow a religion that almost no one else follows. The path of least resistance would be to give in to some popular religion like Islam and then gain wide acceptance for myself through this. But I don't take the path of least resistance. Instead, I always seek truth no matter how lonely the path there may be.
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Again, read the parts that i made bold. You say in the first bold part that you don't choose what you want to believe, yet you say what i consider most likely to be the truth. Truth is not based on what you find it most likely to be the truth, truth is clear from falsehood. Truth is already shown without you giving your opinion. Truth is based on objectivity.
Another question that you may want to ponder about is, how come of all the religions i choose Islam? When investigating honesty, you come to a believe that is based on objective evidence. For example atheist, they BELIEVE in evolution theory because they base their believe on factual evidence. However the critical thinker, doesn't look what has been found, but he also would look what has NOT been found. This is the typical evolution theory of that they tend to talk only about the findings, but never about what has not been found. So it is a believe based on factual evidence in combination with HOPING that the missing link will be found one day. Also they are not found of talking about things that science hasn't proven yet, being for example "missing link" and "what came before the big bang" as this question for example is hard to answer.
In my case, Muslims CLAIM that they have some evidence that confirms of a Creator. What is this evidence? They CLAIM it is the Qur'an. In their claim also, is that this book does not contain any errors. So if we would follow the road of logic, rationality and reason would bring us to a simple question.
Primary question: Does this book indeed not contain any errors?
If we based on this question branch things out, we have to keep certain factors in mind before going and investigating the primary question.
Factors:
- Muslims claim that this Creator of theirs is PERFECT. Perfect in what sense? That He knows everything, that he makes NO mistakes and that He has Creator everything. So if somebody indeed has created something, then that certain individual KNOWS exactly how that certain creation works to the detail if asked about.
- Human beings are faulty so IMPERFECT.
- Human beings are BOUND to make mistakes as their nature is imperfect. They are limited in all sort of things.
- A translation of the Qur'an is made by human beings, so by DEFAULT it will contain errors. So the ORIGINAL one should be investigated not a translation. As Muslims claims the ORIGINAL is perfect.
We have now created a little foundation to start from and made a scope for the research.
One can take all kind of approaches, but lets look a the SCIENTIFIC FACTS that will not even change over 100 years. You look what has been talked about in the Qur'an and you compare it with scientific facts of today that have been branded 100% true. You look if the Qur'an goes against it or not? If Qur'an says something that is NOT according to this scientific facts, then by default it is false and has been made by human beings. As human beings are imperfect and thus make errors.
You can take all kind of scientific categories and compare them if they have been talked about...be it, human psychology, astronomy, biology, etc. etc. etc.
So to make things a bit easier for other readers as well. If one would investigate 100 things that have been talked about. If 99 are correct and 1 is false, by default Qur'an has been made by human beings. If 100 things out of 100 are correct, then by DEFAULT the Qur'an has NOT been made by Human Beings but by somebody else.
So to do this research if you truly do not trust anybody, one MUST learn Arabic language to very advance level. So you know what you are reading. If somebody says i "don't" have time, then by default you are wrong and Qur'an is right, as you are not accepting it is the truth, but even more scarier, you do NOT follow the scientific approach of analyzing it. You rather follow your own desires. When one would die because he or she automatically would have branded the Qur'an as false without investigating it and there IS a Day of Judgement. That individual has NO argument to say why he or she did not follow Islam. So that individual is by default a loser based on his or her own desires.
I have also heard this question. Well if it would be from the Creator, then why did he not make it in all the languages? Have you ever thought about it, that there are all kind of people? Some will not follow it whatsoever and some will follow the truth by whatever means. So having it especially made in a foreign language, people who truly show honesty and are in pursuit of finding the truth, they will sacrifice this life for it. We have a brain, so nothing can stop us to learn a knew language.
So the conclusion of the primary question, would give you two possible outcomes.
- It contains errors thus it has been made by humans. FULL STOP!! and thus false.
- It does NOT contain errors, thus it has NOT been made by humans. Who has made it then? That is another question and another research.
This same procedure NEEDS to be done with ALL the scriptures, if you truly are a individual who is searching for the truth.
"And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81
As you can see, i have NOT used any of what I WANT it to be. Just PURE logic, rationality and reason. If you still disagree with maybe i have something wrong in this comment, do please correct me. However if you disagree with the method, this shows to you that you are not really searching for the OBJECTIVE truth. You are searching for SUBJECTIVE truth. In that case, i wish you a good life my friend.
Peace
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"Islam may not be easy, but I think my religion is harder. It is very hard to follow a religion that almost no one else follows. The path of least resistance would be to give in to some popular religion like Islam and then gain wide acceptance for myself through this. But I don't take the path of least resistance. Instead, I always seek truth no matter how lonely the path there may be."
I forgot to comment on this part as well. The hardest religion is not the one being lonely, it is the one being worked against it. Because when you are being worked against it, loneliness will also become part of it. In Islam for example now a days people go to extremes. Brothers and sisters ..just believe in a God ..and that is enough.. you are being extreme by praying 5 daily prayers (propaganda/brainwashing/doubt created by them). Or you have that other extreme of people wanting you to have mentality of ISIS..killing everybody that does not follow their way.
Then also you have people ..that see you as a Muslim and attack you. Or not getting a job because of your name or because of your religion.
I forgot to comment on this part as well. The hardest religion is not the one being lonely, it is the one being worked against it. Because when you are being worked against it, loneliness will also become part of it. In Islam for example now a days people go to extremes. Brothers and sisters ..just believe in a God ..and that is enough.. you are being extreme by praying 5 daily prayers (propaganda/brainwashing/doubt created by them). Or you have that other extreme of people wanting you to have mentality of ISIS..killing everybody that does not follow their way.
Then also you have people ..that see you as a Muslim and attack you. Or not getting a job because of your name or because of your religion.
My friend, you don't have a so true understanding of God from Islamic pov. In Islam we believe God is indeed a "Person" not just a force. Who is speaking to Moses? A force can't speak. Persons speak. We humans have personalities and this makes us superior to other things. Do you think we have something "superior" to God?
Shamnadanu
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I did hear a lot of stories about leader of isis is a jew.A false leader is enough.
Today we are influenced by media.which is funded by persons and organisation.we can manipulate any news with power and cash.It is media campaign bro which name terrorist as muslims..isis is not killing christians of jews or people who are against them...they are killing innocent people...their target is Muslims..it is very clear..its a psychological move by various agencies. Brother if you need to be up in heaven...you have to suffer....today there is fire test is for muslims..a muslim undergoes through humiliation.mental and psychological loneliness deppression...a muslim gains strength through prayers constant thought of Allah makes him understand life is too short.
Hardships creates eeman in muslims..A muslim or daee inspires everyone with challenging to all extremes and hardships withhis own life peacefully...i don't think highest among the muslims is one who have more followers in fb...or imams etc...Allah created different tests for different people...on daily basis we see a lot of interesting rare person s with lot of hardship living with dheen...so Allah knows the best
.Always believe this'Dont judge a book by its cover'
.Refer and learn from internet who funds these organization s who is creating killing kids and innocent muslims first...then talk
you are talking of ignorance ....a muslim cannot kill a muslim
can you be called a vegetarian if you eat meat...
NO! this is logic
i rarely read newspapers..bro spent time on quran and learning ilm
Today we are influenced by media.which is funded by persons and organisation.we can manipulate any news with power and cash.It is media campaign bro which name terrorist as muslims..isis is not killing christians of jews or people who are against them...they are killing innocent people...their target is Muslims..it is very clear..its a psychological move by various agencies. Brother if you need to be up in heaven...you have to suffer....today there is fire test is for muslims..a muslim undergoes through humiliation.mental and psychological loneliness deppression...a muslim gains strength through prayers constant thought of Allah makes him understand life is too short.
Hardships creates eeman in muslims..A muslim or daee inspires everyone with challenging to all extremes and hardships withhis own life peacefully...i don't think highest among the muslims is one who have more followers in fb...or imams etc...Allah created different tests for different people...on daily basis we see a lot of interesting rare person s with lot of hardship living with dheen...so Allah knows the best
.Always believe this'Dont judge a book by its cover'
.Refer and learn from internet who funds these organization s who is creating killing kids and innocent muslims first...then talk
you are talking of ignorance ....a muslim cannot kill a muslim
can you be called a vegetarian if you eat meat...
NO! this is logic
i rarely read newspapers..bro spent time on quran and learning ilm
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We have the best of doctrines, and it is complete - we do not need to support our faith with a previously revealed one, rather our faith of Islam, gives the older traditions some credit in the modern age by way of correction in belief, practice and spiritual insight.
Islam champions the people of the book - not the other way round bro Schmidt.
Scimi
Shamnadanu
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Also ...Do not look at the followers...Sometimes followers are not aware of anything...Do thauba bro...pray in your nighttime...be practical bro...islam is practical lifestyle...not a theory or hypotheses which could be altered by time...Dooms day comes when there is no single muslim left...there are lot of subjects you need to understand...before runing yourself or your mind with a single subject...explore the hadiths which state of dooms day...how and how you will be judged on judgement day hadiths etc...Allah knows the best and best...so you can get to understand ultimately what will happen next
....ultimately in this life we all going to die.no person in this world don't doubt whether he/she dies...its 100%...why
....ultimately in this life we all going to die.no person in this world don't doubt whether he/she dies...its 100%...why
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Bro Shamnadanu, Schmidt doesn't look at the followers of any faith - rather he is investigating the Judaic faith with a comparative to Islam. It's a doctrinal enquiry. I find that to be quite commendable in all honesty - because he is honest in his method. I do not necessarily agree with his method, but I can appreciate his being honest in his investigation, enough to lay his cards flat on the table because he is looking for "answers" - and not to "debate".
He is seeking truth, via a comparative method.
Make dua for him in sha Allah. That Allah guide him to the truth, verily the guidance comes only from Allah.
Scimi
Do not leave your comments without supporting your idea.
Shamnadanu
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I have a friend who talks of God as force..blah blah....
only difference he is talking with vedas as success to life etc...i quoted some verse that God is not Imagination...Allah is real
can you donate both of your kidneys bro...and you eyes...every little part is important as it is created by most most intelligent creator Allah...
an embryo changes into human form....
a seed into plant ..plants gives food...food is for humans...humans need sleep...Allah created sun....suns revolution provide day and nights...suns light provide plant to grow....sun gives warm on earth...earth needs sun ...again...earth revolves....there are different seasons....etc etc...think think...see how it ends...it never ends....we could understand it is all due a wonderful creator cherishes sustainer and merciful Allah is limitless and everlasting.. Allah could only manager this
it is impossible for us to believe that everything in universe is hard to understand btw we can call it by some name...we call Iron...what is it actually? we call fish ...jyst 4 letter to describe living miracles?!
if we think we couldnt even understand ourselves...that is why Quran is only accepted...and final....because rest scripturez and manipulated...most important is believe in Allah...if you dont have that...there is no value..
00000000 is valuless
100000 is valuable by infintity than 0000000000000000.....how much you put after it no value.....think with brain....not reply to whispering of the Devil ....as Believe that every human being got a devil too .....look at the world ...look at ourselves...we do mistakes too...who whispers us to sin or talk...understand Muhammed pbuh teachings....dont consider it as silly..
.May Allah gives all of us hidayah
sry my writing is bad i know..i m using old broken phone...mashallah least i got this to reply
only difference he is talking with vedas as success to life etc...i quoted some verse that God is not Imagination...Allah is real
can you donate both of your kidneys bro...and you eyes...every little part is important as it is created by most most intelligent creator Allah...
an embryo changes into human form....
a seed into plant ..plants gives food...food is for humans...humans need sleep...Allah created sun....suns revolution provide day and nights...suns light provide plant to grow....sun gives warm on earth...earth needs sun ...again...earth revolves....there are different seasons....etc etc...think think...see how it ends...it never ends....we could understand it is all due a wonderful creator cherishes sustainer and merciful Allah is limitless and everlasting.. Allah could only manager this
it is impossible for us to believe that everything in universe is hard to understand btw we can call it by some name...we call Iron...what is it actually? we call fish ...jyst 4 letter to describe living miracles?!
if we think we couldnt even understand ourselves...that is why Quran is only accepted...and final....because rest scripturez and manipulated...most important is believe in Allah...if you dont have that...there is no value..
00000000 is valuless
100000 is valuable by infintity than 0000000000000000.....how much you put after it no value.....think with brain....not reply to whispering of the Devil ....as Believe that every human being got a devil too .....look at the world ...look at ourselves...we do mistakes too...who whispers us to sin or talk...understand Muhammed pbuh teachings....dont consider it as silly..
.May Allah gives all of us hidayah
sry my writing is bad i know..i m using old broken phone...mashallah least i got this to reply
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Touche lol ya got me.
Ok,
To claim Allah is a person, is to give Allah human qualities - something I find really quite out of context. The logic I use to arrive at this statement is simple.
Allah has endowed human beings with limited qualities from Allah's Asma was sifaat. These qualities we humans are endowed with are set in limitation.
For example - humans can be merciful - but our mercy is not even reflective of a percentage fraction compared to the perfected Mercy which Allah has made incumbent upon HIMSELF.
We humans are persons, our personalities given to us by Allah, but to say Allah is a person - humanizes Allah which is a form of anthropomorphism. Islamic theology doesn't teach that Allah is anthropomorphic, rather that HE is unimaginable.
Scimi