Can the Quran stand the test?

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry, too many questions, I'm confused and had no intention to defame others. Thanks for your patience.

I know you have no intention to defame others. But you are right it is too many questions, at least for this thread which I thought was supposed to be about the Qur'an and we keep getting over into questions about the Bible. If you don't mind (we'll probably even if you do), I'm travelling right now and don't have much time to answer, so I'm going to wait till Monday and then try to remember to answer these questions in the "Ask Christians Questions About Christianity" thread that Woodrow started a couple of years ago.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can the bible withstand the test of time?

Do Jesus disciples understand the teaching of Jesus?


Question is, why do Christians preoccupy themselves with the inimitable Quran, when their 'Bibles' are a fine mess?

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

I honestly don't know what they you have to gain from this save for embarrassing themselves yourself and repeatedly ..

aside from obvious erroneous beliefs, is that they you show don't know the first thing about Islam Christianity .. browse a verse or two and then come attributing to it the meaning of their your own choosing and expect the rest of us to jump on the same bandwagon..


the hilarity

 

[Hugo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Why don't you be more scholarly in your approach and show us how the Qur'an copies from anything.
And if you are sincere pick the Qur'an that you have in your book collection and show us some verses.

May I point you to the N.J. Dawood revised translation from Penguin ISBN 0-14-044558-7. Please look through Joseph 12:1 to 111 which clearly looks like it has been copied from the Joseph story found in Genesis 36 onwards for a few chapters. I might also refer you to Qu'ran 12:111 which says:

"This is no invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures..."

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

If the Qu'ran is inimitable why is it that it copies from what you regard as a 'hilarious mess'?

show me one passage from the Quran that reads like your mess of a bible (you are on).. and yes I can prove that the Quran is the exact original copy.. you'll have a detailed answer a little later.. it will be time consuming to go through each one of the prophet's scribes, the original copy of Hafsah, his widow, the two witnesses of each passage recorded and its dissemination. But it will be worth it to make a public example of the occasional ignoramuses we get around here!

all the best

 

[doorster]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

he seems not to read or reply to posts just hops around like a naughty troll all over the place

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

he seems not to read or reply to posts just hops around like a naughty troll all over the place

a troll he is.. and the saddest part is every few weeks we get another one, dispensing with the same crap and fancying himself 'read'!

 

[جوري]

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

I have no time to descend into cute word play with you Gene.
If you can't answer appropriately to defend passages from your own bible then why bother at all?

all the best

 

[GreyKode]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

May I point you to the N.J. Dawood revised translation from Penguin ISBN 0-14-044558-7. Please look through Joseph 12:1 to 111 which is clearly a copied from the Joseph story found in Genesis 36 onwards for a few chapters. I might also refer you to Qu'ran 12:111 which says:

"This is no invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures..."

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah.
And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

 

[memories]

I suggest that one could just change a few words in the following post and have an appropriate response to the above questions.

Amen to this! During my brief stay on these forums I noticed that the most intolerant,arrogant and sharp responses, often punctured with personal attacks come from this gossamer person.

 

[glo]

Hi Skye

I think the point Grace Seeker is making is that what Muslims say and think about Christianity may not be dissimilar to what Christians say and think about Islam, and vice versa.
If we learn to understand that and see things from the perspective of the other party, then perhaps we can learn to communicate better ...

Salaam

 

[جوري]

Indeed, you are free to think as you may, however-- there can NOT be two rights in this situation!

nonetheless, Grace didn't defend the actions of Peter, rather went off on a tirade of the same himself.. one wonders why Christians busy themselves with an alleged taste of the same rather than actually defend their faulty beliefs?

Two wrongs don't make a right, what say you?

 

[Muezzin]

What was this thread about again?

 

[Hugo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

show me one passage from the Quran that reads like your mess of a bible (you are on).. and yes I can prove that the Quran is the exact original copy.. you'll have a detailed answer a little later.. it will be time consuming to go through each one of the prophet's scribes, the original copy of Hafsah, his widow, the two witnesses of each passage recorded and its dissemination. But it will be worth it to make a public example of the occasional ignoramuses we get around here!

all the best

Lovely, lovely, I look forward to seeing it and I hope its a short answer suitable in posts - perhaps you could offer one proof at a time so we can examine it. My understand here is that we are not talking about content just about transmission?

I also need to know what you understand by the concept of 'proof'. Are you speaking in a scientific sense such as we might use when talking about Gravity or Ohms law or in a looser sense meaning the evidence convinces you or is convincing?

 

[Hugo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah. And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

You are quite correct but it is usual to say that the early copy is the more correct, authentic - that is undisputed. The issue then is why do the Qu'ranic details differ from those found in the Bible?

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Lovely, lovely, I look forward to seeing it and I hope its a short answer suitable in posts - perhaps you could offer one proof at a time so we can examine it. My understand here is that we are not talking about content just about transmission?

Are you unable to comprehend large pieces at a time?

I also need to know what you understand by the concept of 'proof'. Are you speaking in a scientific sense such as we might use when talking about Gravity or Ohms law or in a looser sense meaning the evidence convinces you or is convincing?

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 ..
There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

You are quite correct but it is usual to say that the early copy is the more correct, authentic - that is undisputed. The issue then is why do the Qu'ranic details differ from those found in the Bible?

perhaps the simple answer that alludes you, is that it DOESN'T copy from your bible.. else produce for me the translator that gave Muhammad (P) the bible in its poetic form..

really want to see this in your bible

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZnyB3UvUPE&feature=related[/MEDIA]​

 

[Hugo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Are you unable to comprehend large pieces at a time?

Hugo - no you miss the point, if you present a 5,000 word post it bring discussion to a stop that is why I suggest we do it a discussion board bites

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 .. There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

Hugo - fine but my point was if it was a scientific proof I would have to accept it, believe in it if you like. That is why we need to be clear as to terms.

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

I have already proved (in the same sense that we agree on) it in my earlier post about Joseph. There exits a copy, the earliest known copy of the Joseph story and it is found in manuscripts pre-dating the Qu'ran by many 100s of years.

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Hugo - no you miss the point, if you present a 5,000 word post it bring discussion to a stop that is why I suggest we do it a discussion board bites

It brings it to a stop simply because you are unable to argue against what is written and referenced, and no other reason!

The formula for preservation isn't a mathematical one, it is the recorded consensus based on a chain of Isnad and accepted by respectable historians!
In science you can't apply 'scientific sense' to everything in science itself.
There is no for instance headache-o-meter, that can be applied to assess whether what one is having is a grade 5/10 or a 10/10 .. There are however rigorous criteria to be met, and such indeed is the case with the Quran..

Hugo - fine but my point was if it was a scientific proof I would have to accept it, believe in it if you like. That is why we need to be clear as to terms.

scientific approach relates to the practice of science! do you understand that? further, if you want to propose a mathematical formula to prove textual evidence, then nothing would give me a greater pleasure than to hear it and apply it to both texts in comparison side by side! Go ahead take the lead by all means!

By the way I am still waiting for you to prove that the Quran copied from the bible!

all the best

I have already proved (in the same sense that we agree on) it in my earlier post about Joseph. There exits a copy, the earliest known copy of the Joseph story and it is found in manuscripts pre-dating the Qu'ran by many 100s of years.

That doesn't answer the my query about how the Quran copies from the bible to give up one large poem. Further, you have proved nothing. You don't have two copies of the bible that are the same let alone shared by your many sects. Though 90% of Muslims are sunnis, the ten percent who are shiites still use the exact same Quran.. can you honestly say that is the same for your bibles?
On January 26Th 1997, The sunday times published the results of a survey by its correspondents Rajeev Syal and Cherry Norton regarding the 10 commandments. A random poll of 200 members of the ANGELICAN clergy revealed that two-thirds of Britain's vicars could not recall the ten commandments. Your basic code or morality is about ten lines, and these no lay christians couldn't recall them, and you wish to compare this with hundreds of thousands of Muslim Hafith.. this is what you wish to compare.
You are not even in the same league to make this an object of comparison!

all the best

 

[doorster]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Now, I am ready to join in the fray (of my own free choosing)

bring me 5 Bible scholars
I bring 5 Quran scholars

we ask them, in turn, to recite/dictate their scripture, word for word, including every dot and comma, to gathered scribes/shorthand typists/ or voice recognition software.

and see who manages to be precise in every respect.

that is one of the miracle of our Quran i.e if one believes in it and recites it a few times it stays there in ones mind like a Photocopy!

since this has been ignored by the troll population, and thread has been merged with another confusing mess and someone on staff anonymously tampered with one of my posts , I am out, happy evangelising y'all

 

[Woodrow]

I merged the two similar threads. It seems most of the applies apply to both.