Can the Quran stand the test?

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in a step wise process so that it is easily digestible for the lazy:

The Qur'an was well documented and committed to memory during the time of revelation. When it was revealed prophet Muhammad (pbuh) memorized it and commanded the scribes of revelation to record it and they did. He also used to command his companions to commit it to memory. The Qur'an was, at intervals, revealed by Allah to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through the angel Gabriel, who used to revise the Qur'an with prophet Muhammad once a year but the year the prophet died, the revision was only made twice. When any part of the Qur'an was revealed, the prophet would tell the scribes where to place it. In other words, it was also revealed to prophet Muhammad how to arrange the verses and how to arrange the Surahs (chapters), and then he conveyed this to the scribes.

and example of the above of course is the last verse revealed was to be placed in suret al-baqara..

that is actually another one of the miracles of the inimitable Quran, if the suras and verses were placed as they were revealed, the Quran would actually make no sense, given that some verses were revealed 22 yrs apart, and yet follow in rhythm, context, ryhme, meaning etc

the prophet neither had a computer, nor files to archive this.. in fact much of the Quran was written on the bones of animals (the scapula) for being large and able to hold alot of writing.

the entire of the Quran was written during the time of the prophet, evidenced by Zaid Ibn Thabit' statement:

'' the prophet was taken [from this life] whilst the Quran hadn't been gathered into a book''


note the useage of the word 'gathered' not 'written' exceprted from Ibn Hajar, Fatul Bari, ix 12, also see Bukhari hadith no. 4984


Abu Baker was the first Muslim Caliph. A Caliph was a Muslim ruler. After the demise of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) he was nominated to be the leader of Muslims. During his reign, Islam was targeted and many hufaz (people knowing the Qur’an by heart) were martyred. In Muslim history, it is narrated that over seventy hufaz were martyred in one event called the ‘Ahlulyamamah’.



Omar Ibn Al-Khattab went to the Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr, and expressed his concerns about the preservation of the Qur’an to him. He suggested that the Qur’anic records would be collected in one place. So Abu Bakr commissioned a group of the prophet’s companions headed by Zaib Ibn Thabit, a companion of prophet Muhammad and one of the scribes of the Quran, to collect the Quranic records. These records were then kept with Abu Bakr and after his death Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second Muslim Caliph, preserved them and they were kept afterwards with Hafsa, the prophet’s wife.


During the era of the second and third Muslim Caliphs, Islam had expanded and many people from different countries embraced Islam. Some of the new Muslims were non-Arabs and it was not easy for them to read the Qur’an because it was in Arabic. But the Qur’an is one of the main sources of Islam. There was no other alternative but to learn the Qur’an, so Muslim Caliphs sent the prophet’s companions to teach them the Qur’an. But this did not solve the problem. People read the Qur’an in various ways but the proper intonation is very important. When Othman, the third Muslim Caliph, heard about this, he called for a meeting. The companions of prophet Muhammad assembled and discussed the issue. They reached a consensus and agreed to make copies of the Qur’anic records collected by Zaid Ibn Thabit in the reign of the first Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr and send them all over the Muslim countries.


How did Othman do this?
He nominated four of the prophet’s companions who were hufaz to do this job.

1 Zaid Ibn Thabit: He was from Medina and he was the one that Abu Bakr, the first Muslim caliph, nominated to collect the Qur'an. He is one of the scribes of the Qur'an. He died in 45 Hj.
2 Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair died in 73 Hj.
3 Sa’id Ibn AL-Aas died in 58 Hj.
4 Abdulrahman Ibn Al-Harith died in 43 Hj.
In fulfilling this job they used a very accurate method based on the Qur’anic Records, collected during the era of the first Muslim Caliph, Abu Bakr as the main source.
This was done under the supervision of Othman Ibn Affan, the third Muslim Caliph and the most eminent figures of the companions of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Many copies were made and sent to different Muslim places. Not only this, but with every copy one of the companions of the prophet was sent to teach people the correct recitation of the Glorious Qur’an.


pages 64 and 65 from a history of Quranic text goes into the educational acitivites of the hufath and who they are, so we can trace everything back to the time of the prophet himself.. let's of course compare that to the bible whose message and authorship remain unknown to modern day I call attention of course to early christianity to that of the Nicene counsel (the Lucian viz Arius and Athanasius views-- and of course the none- record of known scribes that one can scribe to Jesus having said!

that is in the most simplified fashion for those who prefer the reductionist approach!

all the best
 
Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

The Qur'an refers to the ruler of egypt as "Aziz misr" while the bible calls him a pharoah.
And there are lots of details revealed in the Qur'an than in the bible. All the conversations between joseph(pbuh) and his brothers, and his father etc.

Peace everyone,

Aziz Misr is a Hyksos. Hyksos are Bedouine Arabs who wandered in the desert before establishing a Kingdom in Egypt. Pharaohs are Egyptian (Coptic). During our father, prophet Abraham (pbuh) and our mother, Sarah (may G-d please with her) entering Egypt, they too had encountered the Hyksos. The King who had fallen in love with mother Sarah is not called as Pharaoh, but al-Malik, it is Arabic, not Coptic.

Aziz means the honorable, while al-Malik means the possessor of a kingdom, property, etc or simply a king. What is it called in the Bible "translations?" And what is it called in the original manuscript when referring the Hyksos kings?
 
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We need original copy of manuscript in the source language to check the validity of the revelation, not the translations (English, Spanish, etc).

Quran had been copied over and over since the prophet (pbuh) time after prophet (pbuh) recites the verses to the revelation scribes, and it is still in Arabic particularly with Quraisy dialect spoken by the prophet (pbuh) and his companions. There are several copies of Quran during the time of early Caliphates. We have complete historical accounts about those copies in Muslim areas, the scribes and etc like what had been stated by sister Gossamer.

Where is the copy of original Bible? If there are gospels in Greek or Aramaic, where are they? People can make researches again on how Christians' god Jesus speak if there are original manuscripts. What had happened to the Torah in history after Babylon had seized the Jews and attacked their kingdom? How many people memorized Torah when the Torah copies and manuscripts were burned? Who are the people that memorized the Torah before the copies were burned? If there happened that the people who memorize Torah exist, how many parts of Torah that they memorized? and we can expand these questions to other more questions. The reason why I ask about these is because the Torah was included in OT of Bible part, together with Gospels and Epistles of Christians' prophets in the part of NT and now we can find them in various languages regarded as the original text itself. Compared to Muslims, we do not recognize Quran in other languages except the one in Arabic with Quraisy dialect, even until today the copies of Quran manuscripts in original Arabic (language) distributed must undergo several inspection processes.

I would rather ask questions than stating because people will not read them all. Plus, it will stimulate everyone to find answers and think. Thanks.
 
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I think this thread name should be re-named to "Can Quran and the Bible "translations" stand the test?" to be fair and square. Can a translation beat the original manuscript (texts) in the term of originality?

I belief that some Christians in this thread have good heart and intention beside sharing the knowledge about their beliefs, which is good in bridging understanding between Eastern and Western civilizations. But some seems like the Orientalists (George Sale, and others). We Muslims had provided the stories on the compilation of Quranic verses from the beginning from our own scholars who had get the sources from the early disciples of our prophet (pbuh). I believe respective Christian friends should do the same. When you ask Muslims about the history of al-Quran, you will get the same answers. Try asking everyone here. What will be their answers? This also related to our basic Creed which is the Oneness of G-d. G-d and creatures are different entities. We are not confuse about our scripture revelation. Thanks
 
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Also Westerner friends should also notice about the demography, geography, and the early history of Arab speaking lands, not merely depending on Orientalists works. There are many books can be read whether from Arabic speaking Muslim scholars or from Arabic speaking Christian scholars like Philip K. Hitti. Islam is the religion of read, think, and with guidelines. We follow the scholarly guidelines, think ourselves with the guide from our creed of G-d Oneness, making researches, and we do not have Mosque fathers (like Church fathers,is there any Mosque fathers exist in Islam??) to bend our way of thinking according to theirs'. We have the guide from Quran surahs' about G-d Oneness (pure monotheism) in Surah al-Ikhlas (the sincerity), it is just a simple Surah yet in a very short canto easily memorized even by a non-Arabic speaker like myself. This surah is among the first chapters of Quran opening, we use to recite this in prayers along with obligatory al-Fatiha (Opening) surah. Every Muslim can be a scholar himself and have the rights to deal with the scripture once they find the way and teachers to assist them acquire knowledge.
 
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I merged the two similar threads. It seems most of the applies apply to both.
Oh, why Woodrow? I started the other one specifically because I thought this one was ranging all over the place and couldn't keep its focus. I wasn't interested in putting the Qur'an to any sort of test, I just wanted to know how it was that those here who accept that the Qur'an was from God came to "know" that it was?

A question like, "Can the Qur'an stand the test?" invites people to challenge that assumption, and then we go down all sorts of rabbit trails as comparisons are made between Islamic, Christian, and/or other religious texts. And the reality is that what I see in this thread is so little understanding of other people's religious systems that those questions usually make about as much sense as "Why is the moon made out of swiss cheese instead of gorganzola?". In other words, people ask questions in which the premises on which their question is based aren't even true, and then think they have "proved" something if the other person either can't or elects not to answer it. So, I'm hardly interested in this sort of discussion except to say that the moon isn't made out of cheese at all.

Plus you've seen how so much of this thread isn't related to the Qur'an at all, but is filled with question about the development of the Bible, theories of Biblical inspiration, interpretations of Biblie passages. None of it relevant to the title of either of the merged threads, but still heavily discussed hear.

Can you seperate the two threads back out? Or can I start a new thread that doesn't get merged with this one?
 
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Oh, why ?


If the Quran is from God, then it can (and has) and shall (insha'Allah) withstand the test of time-- indeed the two threads are very related..
Also you can't start a thread like this in the 'comparative' section and expect that there shouldn't be some sort of scrutiny to the bible!

Sort of reminds me of the fellow who started a thread on God's motivation for creation, didn't like the replies given, then when asked for his perspective, not only did he answer along the same lines, save for the parts he didn't know but a far inferior subjective inference about immolation and sacrificial gift giving that he expects to have some logical profound effect on the rest of us!

This thread will suffice, given my reply on the Quran's descent to earth and the painstaking task of its preservation.. we are yet to see the inscrutable workings of the bible brought into some sort of light!

all the best
 
This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.

Writing a better verse?- too subjective, no measurable markers.

Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.

Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.

Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.

There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.
 
This is how muslims respect Jesus?
jesus gets proper respect.. at least we don't make him into thrice the adulterer!

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.
Good to know, how about you back up your statements with some historical facts?

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.
I think you are mixing Christianity with Islam.. All the nonsense you pass as logical in your books has been disproved.. now people know they won't fall off the edge of the world.. that women aren't akin to animals.. that earth isn't 6000 yrs old only... etc etc.

Writing a better verse?- too subjective, no measurable markers.
Actually the markers have been set.. bring a book that will withstand the test of time, be a guidance to billions across the globe, cover every aspect of human life, politics, economics, social structure, beliefs, inheritance, how to govern a state, insights into things past, things happening, things to come and then you can talk of subjective!


Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.
Actually that is not true at all, several instances, were reported including with the sahaba and a blind man. Let's contrast that with Paul's vision or doubting Thomas dreams or or or.. I am not even going to through the unverifiable virgin birth of Jesus, because that would be as lowely as the christian and Jewish version of the events.
Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.
actually none.. and no proper chain of isnad.. you don't even know who the actual authors of your bibles to verify such an event.. There you shows no historical record of the man jesus, in fact even Josephus writing has come under great scrutiny and I have covered that in other threads!
Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.
Tons of prophecies fulfilled and to be fulfilled, browse the forum.. including all that you fear now, which is Islam being the dominant religion in the world Insha'Allah!
There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.
Indeed.. except it is too late now, as you have made gods of men, left two ineffectual gods behind for the human figure head of jesus...

all the best with that

happy evangelizing
 
...He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better...

source?

there is only a single weak narration that states so, the chain of narrators is non existent in the first place.
 
This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

She says allegedly the jews claim so,

Stop lying Follower. I DARE YOU TO FIND A SINGLE WEBSITE on all of the twisted internet or a video on youtube made by a muslim that even tries to mock prophet jesus(pbuh). NOT A SINGLE ONE

While on the other hand there are thousands of websites of cowards who mock both
the prophet muhammad and jesus (pbut), made by christians, jews and atheists.
 
She says allegedly the jews claim so,

Stop lying Follower. I DARE YOU TO FIND A SINGLE WEBSITE on all of the twisted internet or a video on youtube made by a muslim that even tries to mock prophet jesus(pbuh). NOT A SINGLE ONE

While on the other hand there are thousands of websites of cowards who mock both
the prophet muhammad and jesus (pbut), made by christians, jews and atheists.

I hope you are right but go and look through the posts for Gossamer in this board and see how she describes the bible as an 'hilarious mess' and since that is the place where we learn most about Jesus I think we have found a site where Jesus is vilified.

One might also note that the Qu'ran many time exhorts us to look at the previous scriptures (eg. 12:111) so Gossamer in this board denigrates what the Qu'ran commends.
 
Remember the Quran confirms the Bible.

I used to believe that it just confirmed the Torah and Gospel but as I have studied more I see that the Quran also confirms the Holy Bible that was in existance at the time of Mohammad.

What in the world is this thrice adulterer business? GOD had sex with Mary? GOD is spirit- does not take human form to have sex with people! GOD took human form to save people.

But Muslims think GOD is uncapable of taking human form- yet his angel is capable.

Luke 1
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In the Quran the angel Gabriel becomes the perfect man and Mary puts us a screen. Why the need for the screen?

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
 
I hope you are right but go and look through the posts for Gossamer in this board and see how she describes the bible as an 'hilarious mess' and since that is the place where we learn most about Jesus I think we have found a site where Jesus is vilified.

One might also note that the Qu'ran many time exhorts us to look at the previous scriptures (eg. 12:111) so Gossamer in this board denigrates what the Qu'ran commends.

Actually your scriptures are a hilarious mess.. there is no denigration of the holy Quran in saying so. The Quran abrogates what you've made lawful.. use your noodles!

all the best
 
Remember the Quran confirms the Bible.

I used to believe that it just confirmed the Torah and Gospel but as I have studied more I see that the Quran also confirms the Holy Bible that was in existance at the time of Mohammad.

What in the world is this thrice adulterer business? GOD had sex with Mary? GOD is spirit- does not take human form to have sex with people! GOD took human form to save people.

But Muslims think GOD is uncapable of taking human form- yet his angel is capable.

Luke 1
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

In the Quran the angel Gabriel becomes the perfect man and Mary puts us a screen. Why the need for the screen?

019.017
YUSUFALI: She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
PICKTHAL: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
SHAKIR: So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

The Quran doesn't confirm the bible.. the Quran addresses amongst other things, the stories of the prophets what (you have is a deranged pagan mythology book) that makes gods of men.. You don't have the people of the Quran in your bible for instance, I see no reference to ahl- al-kahf..
early Christians who took refuge in a cave from persecution. Why don't you bring me their story from the bible, so we can see what it is the Quran confirms.. Also he who visited Mary in accordance to you is another God, the hovering one, the one that takes the last seat in that wagon not Gabriel!

since the Quran came to you courtesy of false prophets, I don't see how it is of use to you..

The Thing is I am under the weather now a days and don't want to deal you a bad enough blow so you'd buzz off instead of constantly rolling bad like a bad penny.. and take your cronies with you!

Happy evangelizing!

all the best
 
*sigh* does anyone think that this thread is going to go around in circles and won't go anywhere?

This is how muslims respect Jesus?

Isn't it amazing, that the Jews whom allegedly Jesus is one of, claim that he is a son of an adulterer (astghfor'Allah), are the Jewish historians wrong?

The fact that Mohammad couldn't read or write doesn't mean he couldn't be a poet or know alot of words he heard from his travels and meeting with the Jews and Christians living in the area. He had scribes working for him, scribes that at time told him now to make a verse sound better. Just because he couldn't read doesn't mean he wasn't a greta mathematiciam, scientist, ruler, leader, businessman, etc.

Wow, another quote from someone who has never read the Qur'an.

You know what the non-muslims said when Prophet Muhammad was alive? They would say this:

Nay! say they: Medleys of dreams; nay! he has forged it; nay! he is a poet; so let him bring to us a sign as the former (prophets) were sent (with). [21:05]

They also said:

Surely they used to behave proudly when it was said to them: There is no god but Allah;

And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?" [37:35-36]

And they also say:

Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!" [52:30]

And you know what Allah says about them? He says:

It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!


Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
[69:41-43]

Allah also says:

We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: [39:39]

The so called scientific miracles of the Quran have all been disproved.
To some one who has no sense.

Where are the eyewitnesses that saw the angel Gabriel speak to Mohammad, or a bright light or something other then just Mohammad telling people this happeneed.

Joseph had a dream where Gabriel came to him and assured him of Mary. The empty tomb had multiple witnesses, the crucifixon had multiple witnesses, Pauls conversion had multiple witnesses, Jesus' ressurection had multiple witnesses, etc.

Then there are all the prophecies fulfilled in the Holy Bible- where are these in the Quran.

There has to be proof- The Holy Bible warns us about false prophet.
Follower, i'm really beginning to get tired of repeating my self again and again on telling you to stop speaking about the Qur'an unless you've actually read it. If you carry on like this you'll receive an infraction.
 
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*sigh* does anyone think that this thread is going to go around in circles and won't go anywhere?



Wow, another quote from someone who has never read the Qur'an.

And We have not taught him (Muhammad) poetry, nor is it meet for him. This is naught else than a Reminder and a Lecture making plain, [39:39]

To some one who has no sense.

Follower, i'm really beginning to get tired of repeating my self again and again on telling you to stop speaking about the Qur'an unless you've actually read it. If you carry on like this infract.

why don't you just get rid of him? there is no point of a meaningful dialogue, and I rather think they come here to take advantage of Muslim mannerism (Thank God an area I haven't perfected yet) to dump their agenda..I don't enjoy guests who incommode their hosts.. the thing is, this particular fellow, mocks Islam and constantly berates the prophet, pounces on one Quote that has positively no relation to the book they hold in their hand to assert to people moot point. He thinks the book came to you courtesy of a false prophet-- why he quotes it is beyond me?, him and the other kid who can't even take the time to read the responses given him let alone any common sense and is rather akin to atheists, since nothing in his own religion makes sense to him..

why do you keep folks like that on board?

:w:
 
why don't you just get rid of him? there is no point of a meaningful dialogue, and I rather think they come here to take advantage of Muslim mannerism (Thank God an area I haven't perfected yet) to dump their agenda..I don't enjoy guests who incommode their hosts.. the thing is, this particular fellow, mocks Islam and constantly berates the prophet, pounces on one Quote that has positively no relation to the book they hold in their hand to assert to people moot point. He thinks the book came to you courtesy of a false prophet-- why he quotes it is beyond me?, him and the other kid who can't even take the time to read the responses given him let alone any common sense and is rather akin to atheists, since nothing in his own religion makes sense to him..

why do you keep folks like that on board?

:w:

:sl:

i agree with the sister. if you are going to let dipsticks like this clown hang around, at least mod his drivel.

it's frustrating for the rest of us. i mean, how can we not respond? are we not required to try to stop it, or at least speak out against it? and to respond to most of his crap, we have to bring ourselves down to his level.
and in doing so, we violate Islamic principles.

BUT we have to respond...

:w:
 
source?

there is only a single weak narration that states so, the chain of narrators is non existent in the first place.


that is how they find any fault in the Quran in the first place..
they invent it, then they circulate it, then they believe it.. and then come quote people who invented as the source lol..

it is because I say so, from 'can the quran stand', follower.p9

:w:
 
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