Can the Quran stand the test?

[glo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

The criteria is set in many a Quran thread on the forum, I suggest you search for them

I am not sure what you mean by 'criteria'.

When you said that "to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran" I assumed you meant in linguistic terms. Did you mean something else?

The Quran's message is transcendent to time and language -- every messenger brought something to their people that proved dynamic to their time.. Moses was able to do great miracles in a time of magic in Egypt that allowed the Pharaohs' sorcerers to concede that it is no magic..
Jesus brought healing at a time when medicine was prevalent in his time, yet it obviously surpassed all the medicine of the time and set him apart-- each messenger endowed with a gift through God that set them apart, Islam is for all of man-kind since its miracle is the Quran and that is not something that can die or be denied by history, all one needs to do is read to have their questions answered directly..

Clearly I am lacking knowledge.
I had always thoughts that the messages all prophets brought to mankind were identical, and that Muhammed's message was simply the final one - though no different to the message the others had brought before him ...

Now I know you ask many questions about the Quran and claim you have read it, I point for instance you attention to your thread on the pilgrimage where you alleged that it is a Muhammad practice given that it wasn't mentioned in the Quran, and I have in fact shown you about 20 quotes on pilgrimage including an entire chapter so entitled..

How can we discuss logically something you haven't read?

Dear Skye, I am the first to admit my lack of knowledge.
I sense that you have neither forgotten nor forgiven my ignorant questions. :-[
When I asked them they were based on my basic understanding of the Qu'ran after having read it once.
I am the first to admit that I have not studied the Qu'ran in every depth and breadth. Hence my questions may seem ignorant and silly to some. :-[

You may or may not be able or willing to trust me when I say that I do not ask questions for the sake of being cantancerous or difficult, or to upset and hurt people.
I ask questions for one reason only, to learn!

We are all on a journey together, hopefully on one which will bring us closer to God, in terms of knowledge, love and understanding.
I do not claim to be perfect, but I am plodding on.

God's peace to you and all.

 

[Yanal]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?


I will still give my reply. If you say the Quran was not from Allah and the prophet made it up ,how would he? He didnt know the words that the Quran had until Allah Angel explained it. Hope that answered your question.

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

I am not sure what you mean by 'criteria'.

When you said that "to this day no one has brought a chapter like the Quran" I assumed you meant in linguistic terms. Did you mean something else?

Hence I said, there are many threads here on meeting with Quranic criteria, yes linguistics is one but certainly not the only one, else what would distinguish the Quran from an exquisite poem?
It needs to establish everything from politics, economics, social structure, belief system, inheritance, and be spiritually satisfying to name a few, and entrance people throughout all the centuries and read to me with sense and fluidity to my lifestyle as well to someone a thousand yrs ago or a thousand year from now!

Clearly I am lacking knowledge.
I had always thoughts that the messages all prophets brought to mankind were identical, and that Muhammed's message was simply the final one - though no different to the message the others had brought before him ...

Indeed the message is one thing, the way to draw people to that message is another.. I never said they have brought a different message, pls re-read what I have actually written. I said they needed something to set them apart completely from mere charlatans.. and ended with the note, any so-called miracle ended with its time, prophet Mohammad's miracle is left behind, since his was the gift of the Quran, which came down at a time when the Arabs used to recite their poems and have them posted on the Kaaba, his 'poem' was like no other and still to this day!

Dear Skye, I am the first to admit my lack of knowledge.
I sense that you have neither forgotten nor forgiven my ignorant questions. :-[
When I asked them they were based on my basic understanding of the Qu'ran after having read it once.

You'll forgive that I have a difficult time reconciling that with what you write, to miss a verse once or twice or thrice or four times is fine, but 20+ as well the very chapter with that title, can only equal to (not read)

I am the first to admit that I have not studied the Qu'ran in every depth and breadth. Hence my questions may seem ignorant and silly to some. :-[

I won't say in depth, I'll say not at all, see above for why!

You may or may not be able or willing to trust me when I say that I do not ask questions for the sake of being cantancerous or difficult, or to upset and hurt people.
I ask questions for one reason only, to learn!

You seem very unsatisfied with the answers given you?

We are all on a journey together, hopefully on one which will bring us closer to God, in terms of knowledge, love and understanding.
I do not claim to be perfect, but I am plodding on.

God's peace to you and all.

I gain nothing with your admittance or denial of the fact, I merely dislike the smoke and mirrors style to explain why you ask certain questions!

all the best

 

[glo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

You seem very unsatisfied with the answers given you?

Some answers seem indeed unsatisfactory, for many different reasons. Perhaps I don't feel they have answered my question, perhaps they don't make sense to me at the time, perhaps it is just not the right time to digest the answer ...

Many other answers are very satisfying and also very important to me. Each one is a small piece which helps me piece together the broader picture which is Islam.

I gain nothing with your admittance or denial of the fact, I merely dislike the smoke and mirrors style to explain why you ask certain questions!

Your distrust of me has been a constant concern to me, Skye.
Perhaps it is time for me to learn that it is indeed your problem and not mine, and that I just have to accept that this is how it is.
I wish you well.

God's peace to you and all.

 

[جوري]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Some answers seem indeed unsatisfactory, for many different reasons. Perhaps I don't feel they have answered my question, perhaps they don't make sense to me at the time, perhaps it is just not the right time to digest the answer ...

This is certainly true.. it is like sitting for a lecture on glycolysis and not knowing whether at the end you have harnessed four or two ATP's and how it actually relates to your every day life-- but it doesn't change the fact that others have understood the lecture as well the application. When such a lack of understanding happens especially with something universally taught to all, the best thing to do is spend ones personal time expending the effort, in the case of gly. maybe because it pertains to your exam, or toward your actual degree, or to every day clinical use as it comes to someone with an enzymatic deficiency or a child eating too much toothpaste or egg whites etc.. and if it doesn't bother or touch your life in any fashion you can always go for alternative medicine, sweep it under the rug or live perfectly happy and content not knowing of its existence or application all together.. I hope you can apply that analogy as well when it comes to religion, practical/spiritual and other worldly benefits!

Many other answers are very satisfying and also very important to me. Each one is a small piece which helps me piece together the broader picture which is Islam.

Good for you

Your distrust of me has been a constant concern to me, Skye.
Perhaps it is time for me to learn that it is indeed your problem and not mine, and that I just have to accept that this is how it is.
I wish you well.

God's peace to you and all.

You can view it whichever way pleases you..

all the best

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

This was part of a comment in another thread, but I brought it here to begin this thread because it focuses for me a question I have. I think I am fairly safe in assuming that Imam was referring to the Qur'an in his statement above.

So my question is, without getting into the circular argument where the Qur'an declares itself to be true, on what basis do the Muslims on this board believe that the Qur'an and only the Qur'an truly is the miraculous word of God?

firstly, on the basis of the language of the Qur'an itself. in a world where poetry reigned and the best poems were tacked onto the Kabbah [and some say worshiped], where parents sent their children to be weaned with the Bedouin, partially for learning the "purity" of their language,the Qur'an came and blew everyone away. i don't think it can be explained to Caucasians/Westerners who only pretend to be interested in Islam. unless you actually take a look at examples of the Arabic, it will be lost to you. [there is actually music within the Qur'an, with the different Surahs having their own sounds and some with different feeling/emotions!]

IN ADDITION, we have witnesses to Revelation as well as witness to Gibreel [AS] plus Zaid ibn Thaabit is said to have witnessed him reciting Qur'an with Rasulullah[PBUH] during Rhamadhan and witness to Revelation plus many Miracles and Prophecies from the Prophet[PBUH]. the RELIGION itself is also proof.

we have the ONLY PURELY MONOTHEISTIC Religion that has it's Revelation still intact. we are the ONLY Religion the believes in La Ilaha IlAllah[No God is worthy of worship except Allah] as well as La Hawla Wa La Quwata Illa Billah [there is no Power or Strength except with Allah].

we are the only Ummah that has Surat Al Fatihah!

the Torah is not in it's original form and no contemporaneous works exist from the time of Isa ibn Marriam[PBUThem]

we have posted workshops on the Qur'an, no one listens to them. poor translations of the Qur'an are NOT the Qur'an. as a matter of fact, GOOD translations of the Qur'an are NOT the Qur'an. ONLY the ACTUAL QUR'AN is the Qur'an!

unless you are willing to investigate THE ACTUAL Qur'an, or Allah guides you, you cannot begin to the fathom the Special Qualities of the Qur'an.

but i don't think that any of our "pretend" friends here have the slightest interest in the Qur'an. they only have their own agendas, and Allahu Alum! [Allah knows Best]

 

[Dawud_uk]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

peace glo,

i get into this discussion a lot, so let me try to break it down for you.

first of all the miracle of the Quran being unable to be reproduced is perhaps not so useful to yourself, the challenge is to produce a chapter like the Quran in its style and grammar in arabic.

now i assume you are not a fluent classical arabic speaker? if so then you'd need quite a few years to learn arabic before trying but feel free to give it a go. but you should know that for 1400 years this has been tried and never once has a native arabic speaker succeeded in this.

the christian and jewish arabic speakers tried and failed, the pagan arabs tried and failed, lately the atheist secularist arabs have tried and failed so it is quite a big challenge as the best minds from all of these groups have tried and failed to produce one chapter like the Quran, someone as small as 3 lines long in its perfect style and grammar.

a more useful challenge for you is to find a flaw of error in the Quran, as only Allah is capable of perfection, it is beyond mankind so many faiths claim to hold the word of God, but whose claim stands up to scrutiny and whose fails by being full of flaws and contradictions?

i am sure you as a christian, we as muslims both agree God doesnt lie, God doesnt make mistakes, therefore his holy book, should likewise be free of contradictions and errors.

There are other scientific miracles, but that requires perhaps another post to break it down a bit how do you get around these two problems to you as a christian wanting to follow God can read a book and not find flaws and contradictions nor have the best arab christians (or others) been able to produce just one chapter of 3 lines long like the Quran?

peace,

 

[Banu_Hashim]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply.

Peace

Well, the Islamic viewpoint is partly to do with the fact that Muhammad (saws*) had no formal education. And to receive such words of guidance as the Qur'an, and to achieve what he did in the span of 23 years (i.e. to consolidate the Islamic empire, to establish himself as a army general, as a teacher, as an Imam, as a leader etc. etc.) is nothing short of a miracle, and is not possible without divine help.

* saws = sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam

............= "May Allah bless him and grant him peace"

 

[glo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Dawud, your post is very helpful. Thank you.

I am sure that not knowing Arabic at all the wonder and awe surrounding the way the Qu'ran is apparently written escapes me.
I have no concept at all of what it might mean 'not to be able to reproduce it', or how indeed that should be so difficult.
(Perhaps I should have a go myself. haha! (Joke!) )

So I will leave that entire argument aside until such a time when I might have a better understanding of Arabic.

As for contradictions etc and such in holy books, there are of course many other threads and posts in this section on that matter, and Christians have made their view-point clear.
Since that is not what this thread is about, can I ask you whether you whole-heartedly believe that the Qu'ran is utterly and totally without contradiction?
(I am asking because I know many, even Muslims, who would say otherwise. So I am interested in your personal opinion on this)

Peace

 

[Dawud_uk]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Dawud, your post is very helpful. Thank you.

I am sure that not knowing Arabic at all the wonder and awe surrounding the way the Qu'ran is apparently written escapes me.
I have no concept at all of what it might mean 'not to be able to reproduce it', or how indeed that should be so difficult.
(Perhaps I should have a go myself. haha! (Joke!) )

So I will leave that entire argument aside until such a time when I might have a better understanding of Arabic.

As for contradictions etc and such in holy books, there are of course many other threads and posts in this section on that matter, and Christians have made their view-point clear.
Since that is not what this thread is about, can I ask you whether you whole-heartedly believe that the Qu'ran is utterly and totally without contradiction?
(I am asking because I know many, even Muslims, who would say otherwise. So I am interested in your personal opinion on this)

Peace

yes, no contradictions

 

[doorster]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

The Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) did not know how to read or write. So how do you think he would make the Quran from thin air if he doesn't know anything about reading or writing? Answer me and I will expand on my answer.

clarification about literacy/illiteracy of Last Rasul Allah

http://www.ahewar.org/debat/show.art.asp?aid=73939 *arabic*, somewhat long but provides many good sources.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Hi Alpha Jr

That is something I have never been able to understand.
Why would Muhammed not being able to read or write matter?
The Qu'ran was from the beginning spoken, recited ... no reading or writing involved, is there?

In a culture where oral tradition was very much the norm, and where knowledge was passed on through stories and verbal accounts, rather than books and written material, that doesn't seem such a special thing ... :?

Looking forwrd to your reply.

Peace

Hi glo

One of the many wisdoms behind Prophet Muhammed being an unlettered Prophet is proof to show that he didn't author the Qur'an and that it was a word given to him by Almighty God. This is why when angel Gabriel decended from the heavens and called out to Prophet Muhammad and said 'iqra', Prophet Muhammad understood the word iqra to mean 'read', so Prophet Muhammad replied 'I cannot read'.

The word iqra has two meanings, it means to read or to recite. And in the case of Prophet Muhammed (saws) it meant to recite. This further emphasizes the fact that Allah says:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. [Surah An-Nisa 8:42]

Had Prophet Muhammad been a person who was able to read and write people would have been in doubt if this was really the word of god. This is also mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

Allah further says:

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel...[Surah Al-Araf 7:157]

 

[doorster]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

edit

 

[Uthman]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

The only think I don't like about Islam is that there are so many proofs that it's true, I never know where to start. imsad

I used to say that it was impossible to prove that God exists, but I was ignorant. Any sincere and logical person who studies the life of Muhammad (peace be upon him) and then studies the Qur'an in depth can come to no other conclusion - it must be the word of God and Islam simply must be the truth.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?



Literature is subjective, what appeals to me might not appeal to someone else, however literary works are judged by audience, how much they sell, bestseller lists etc. Like wise with music albums - the popularity and success of a album is determined by how much of an audience it has. So a book or a song lasts for a while, few months or a year or two at extreme and then it drops off. People move on.

Yet, when it comes to the Qur'an, no other book is recited and memorized as constantly as the Qur'an is, by young and old alike, in all corners of the world, for a such a long period of time. And its audience is not decreasing, it is only increasing day by day. So when you're asked to bring a book like the Qur'an, you'll need to address this as well - you'll need to produce something that captivates people's hearts for as long as the Qur'an has, you'll need to bring a book that is memorized just as much as the Qur'an is by young and old alike, and you'll need to bring a book that lasts as long as the Qur'an has, and frankly, try as anyone might, it will by necessity be a failed attempt.

And people have tried, the latest one was by some people at Georgetown University, and for someone that doesn't know Arabic, it sounds like the Qur'an. But anyone with a minimal understanding of Arabic, it truly makes you laugh, and I don't say this simply because I'm a Muslim. For example, they made a Surah called, Surah Muslim and Surah Kafir, I mean, how original eh? It's truly entertaining.

I on purpose didn't bring up grammar and elequence of the Qur'an because it is truly a waste of time to explain to people about it on an online forum - it's the wrong medium. However, if anyone reading this thread (Glo and Grace Seeker) is interested, and I hope you are for at least the purpose of educating yourself on this topic, then you can take the time out for about an hour and forty five minutes and watch/listen to the following two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWUy_luMq0Q

You'll at the very least get an idea of what exactly we mean when we say eloquence of the Qur'an.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

This thread has taken off faster than I had expected. Sadly, I'm not able to respond to all of it right now, but will take some time to digest the various answers. I appreciate that there are many different reasons given and the high value that is placed on the Qur'an itself. I'm glad you all took my question seriously and gave your own personal answers, for I wasn't so much interested in the answer some scholar might give but what you who I interact with here on a regular basis might have as your own thoughts on the matter. Thanks for taking the time to share as you did. I'm sure I'll be back with you later after I have time to reflect.

 

[glo]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

This thread has taken off faster than I had expected.

I fear that might have been my doing, Grace Seeker. :rollseyes

I agree in that I too find hearing and understanding people's own views and perceptions much more beneficial and helpful than scholarly cut-and-paste posts.

 

[Forced_In]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Hi,

I have heard that some technical books composed by humans are of very
high value. The reason is that whenever someone reads the book, there are
sources of inspiration for him/her. That is, no matter being novice or expert,
after reading the book again and again you learn new things. This would go
to such an extend that the book is called "a classic".

Now, what makes holy Quran stand out ? Simply it is not limited to a
particular area. It all depends on the reader, if he/she puts great care and
study Quran, it would be beneficial for him/her in any subject, and to any
depth the person can manage to go. Also it has no time, it wont become a
classic. Rather believers understanding of it would grow as the time passes
(hopefully).

As an example, one miracle of Quran is the harmony of its context letter-wise
way to meta-concepts. I would be thankful if someone posts the viable
researches on horoofe moghata'ah (separated letters) for instance.

 

[Uthman]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

Hi glo

I agree in that I too find hearing and understanding people's own views and perceptions much more beneficial and helpful than scholarly cut-and-paste posts.

While people's own views and experiences may be more interesting to read, I believe that ultimately somebody who has spent a lot of their time studying a religion is the most qualified to answer questions about it. I think this also applies to any field, not just religion.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Re: How does one know the Qur'an is from God?

This was part of a comment in another thread, but I brought it here to begin this thread because it focuses for me a question I have. I think I am fairly safe in assuming that Imam was referring to the Qur'an in his statement above.

So my question is, without getting into the circular argument where the Qur'an declares itself to be true, on what basis do the Muslims on this board believe that the Qur'an and only the Qur'an truly is the miraculous word of God?

I would assume on the same basis that Christians believe the bible to be the word of God. Faith.