Can the Quran stand the test?

[Follower]

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d740101.htm

"There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents. One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events? Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence? Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives? Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

 

[nihil est]

With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

Not at all.

One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records

We have no way of telling if the writer of the original Gospels were actually eyewitnesses. For instance, religious people have long believed that the apostle Matthew actually wrote the Gospel of Matthew, but that is probably not true.

or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events?

A contemporary? Well, no. The earliest is about 40 years removed from Jesus' death. Lived in the same area? John for example was probably written in Asia Minor or Syria. Not exactly Palestine.

Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence?

Corrborating what claims though? That Jesus lived? Pretty firm evidence. That Jesus was God or did miracles to several hundred people as described in the Gospels? Nada.

Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives?

The alleged martyrdom of the Apostles are based on tradition - we have no independent evidence to suggest that most of them died the way Church tradition claims they did. In fact, some of the traditions contradict each other.

Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred? If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable.

Who?

 

[Follower]

LOL! You can't just say, probably not, not at all, etc. you have to prove it! Lack of evidence is not proof.

Why couldn't a contemporary have written the eyewitness account? A man witnesses something in his 20's writes about it in his 60's. I remember vividly everything about the assasination of JFK.

Even a student of the contemporary - I have told my children the assasination of JFK. They know what we know, LOL! even the conspiracy theories!

We do have the Martydom of Polycarp- a letter written about the student of John.

Helping date the Gospels we have letters from Paul who we know lived ca. 6-67AD mentioning scripture:

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

Who? for example secular historians- and the crucifixion of Jesus- Muslims deny the crucifixion.

Can the Quran stand up to this scrutiny?

 

[Oleander]

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,[/U] 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

 

[mkh4JC]

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,[/U] 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

Well, there's this:

'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' Psalms 16: 10.

 

[Grace Seeker]

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.



>>>If Paul was telling the truth in the above verses, would you please site to us where in the scripture written about Jesus TO DIE AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS, and raise on the third day According to the scripture?

The most obvious one is Psalm 16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol, neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption."

In Jesus' day (and in Paul's) Jonah was understood to have spent 3 days in the belly of the fish that swallowed him. Jesus himself makes reference to this: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40).

There there is also Hosea 6:2 "He doth revive us after two days, In the third day He doth raise us up, And we live before Him."

But I want to suggest another way of viewing what Paul was saying. I suspect that Paul was not referring to one particular passage, but was referencing the whole body of Old Testament prophecies about Jesus suffering, death, burial, and resurrection. The point is not that such-and-such a verse has now come true, but that the truth to which all of the Scriptures point has now been realized!

 

[Imam]

Well, there's this:

'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' Psalms 16: 10.

The claim of third day resurrection prophecy is one of the top NT forgeries

I would suggest reading that as a beginning ,and more in the right time......

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2third96.html


Graceseeker

though you quoted, what according to you, The most obvious one is Psalm 16:10

you still have doubt!!....

I suspect that Paul was not referring to one particular passage

but I understand why you still doubt,as what you quoted can't help and can't convince the reader whether a christian or not ,that it is a Resurrection prophecy...

 

[Follower]

The scripture that Paul is talking about is the Gospel!

 

[Follower]

Still all that aside, can the Quran stand the test?

 

[_ALI_]

Salam

There are four major rules for proving the credibility of documents.

First of all, those 4 rules are not universally accepted. They were just given by a Christian. The 4 rules are a bit lenient.

One, was the writer of the document an eyewitness to the events he records or was he at least a contemporary that lived in the same area of the events?

Like I said, too lenient. Now incase of Quran, Quran was revealed in stages and after the death of prophet Muhammad, the Revelation was available both orally and written down on various materials. Its internal order was known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them. But in the battle of Yamama, faught by the first Caliph Abu Bakr and a false prophet Musailima, some of the Qurra (people who had memorized the whole Quran) were killed. So Abu Bakr was advised by Umar (who later became the 2nd Caliph) that Quran should be collected in one piece. At first, Abu Bakr was hesitant since the prophet never did that, and it is very important for Muslims to follow the prophet. However, Umar convinced Abu Bakr that collecting Quran in one piece is good for Muslims. They assigned Zaid Bin Thabit for the task. The whole story is narrated in In Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201 by Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart).
The Hadith further continues and in the end it is narrated
The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.
Hence Quran passes the first condition with ease. Now coming to the Bible, we don't even know for sure about the writers of Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ezekiel, Mathew, Luke, Hebrews etc, how can we be sure that the authors were eyewitnesses?

Two, were there other independent witnesses to corroborate the evidence?

That really long story regarding Quran proves that it passes this point with ease. As for the Bible, we don't even know about the Authors, how can we know about the witnesses? And as for the link you gave, just because a part of the Bible may have independant witnesses doesn't mean that every chapter of the Bible has witnesses.

Three, did those witnesses continue to maintain their testimonies until death—even to the jeopardy of their lives?

Again, same argument as used above. And Quran also passes this test. No person who knew Quran by heart ever contradicted the copy Hazrat Hafsa had.

Four, were there also hostile witnesses who would have reason not to believe the evidence but still say the events occurred?

With the Bible, we are having a problem of witnesses, hostile witnesses is out of the question. And referring to that link, just because a part of the Bible may have a hostile witness doesn't mean that the whole Bible has hostile witnesses. The Bible only gives the example of Paul for this 4th point. We have a corresponding example of Hazrat Umar.
According to an early story, recounted in Ibn Ishaq's Sīrah, `Umar resolved to assassinate Muhammad.[8] On the way to assassinate Muhammad, Umar met a Muslim who told him to set his own house in order first, as his sister and her husband had converted to Islam. Upon arriving at her house, `Umar found her reciting verses of the Qur'an. When he listened carefully to the Sura's verses, he was so impressed that he accepted Islam that very day.copied from wikipedia

If all of these four factors are in solid evidence, then reliability becomes very acceptable. With the New Testament documents, we have all four evidences in a firm position for credibility."

As I proved, the 4 factors hold for the Quran but not for the Bible. To be honest, I don't think that if a document passes this 4 factor test, it suddenly becomes historically reliable because this test is too lenient. For a document to be historically authentic, for starters, it should not contradict itself. The Bible does that many times.
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
6. How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?

Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
7. How long did he rule over Jerusalem?

Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
8. The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time?

Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
9. When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after?

After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
10. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark?

Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
These are a few of the many contradictions. As for the Quran, there is not a single contradiction

004.082 أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا
004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions.

Al-Qur'an, 004.082 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Peace

 

[Follower]

LOL!! the old 101 contradictions!
Not really contradictions if you were to study His Word:

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/joshua-esther Answers all the supposed contradictions. Before throwing arround those accusations you should google contradictions of the Quran and study those.

Actually we were talking New Testament. The Quran can not stand up in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus.

There are no eyewitnesses mentioned in the Quran to tell us what happened at the crucifixion. All we know iis that the Jews are bragging about it, but they are not responsible. How do we know that the Jews were even bragging about it?

The Books of the Gospels give us various accounts of the same event.

Hostile would be the historians of Jesus' day that were not Christian.

 

[Imam]

The scripture that Paul is talking about is the Gospel! .

Where did you get that from?!!!!!

Actually we were talking New Testament. The Quran can not stand up in regards to the crucifixion of Jesus.There are no eyewitnesses mentioned in the Quran to tell us what happened at the crucifixion.
.

That's weird .....eyewitnesses to something never happened?!!!

who is supposed to support his assertions with eyewitnesses the one that claims or the one that negates?

The Books of the Gospels give us various accounts of the same event. .

various accounts but all untrustworthy,cause all are based on the contradictory hearsay accounts.

check here
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134274075-why-jews-dont-believe-jesus-3.html

 

[Grace Seeker]

That's weird .....eyewitnesses to something never happened?!!!

who is supposed to support his assertions with eyewitnesses the one that claims or the one that negates?

various accounts but all untrustworthy,cause all are based on the contradictory hearsay accounts.

check here
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134274075-why-jews-dont-believe-jesus-3.html

I would be interested in the list of eyewitnesses (or even earwitnesses) who can testify that it was indeed the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). And who are the people that can verify that message the angel gave Muhammad is the same that he then recited for those who wrote down the Qur'an?

 

[Imam]

I would be interested in the list of eyewitnesses (or even earwitnesses) who can testify that it was indeed the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh). And who are the people that can verify that message the angel gave Muhammad is the same that he then recited for those who wrote down the Qur'an?

Then you agree with my post that the crucifiction-resurrection accounts of the gospel all untrustworthy? don't you?

you make a false analogy ...... we don't have a contradictory hearsay accounts of the angel Jibrael who spoke to Muhammad (pbuh) in order for you to make analogy.... that is totally another issue....

who ever bother what happens during the process of inspiration ?
one should bother of the fruit of the inspiration , whether it is inerrant,miracelous or not.....

Who would ever ask how Jesus been inspired by his message ?! who would ask for eyewitnesses for the process of the inspiration to the prophets?!!....

What are you looking for,seeker?!!

We let the work speaks of itself ,whether being inspired or not.....
and the New Testament spoke loudly of his errancy ...... and one of the top reasons the link I have provided...

would you defend it?

Why the christians whenever the Bible to be criticised, resort to the Quran,is something beyond me!!!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Then you agree with my post that the crucifiction-resurrection accounts of the gospel all untrustworthy? don't you?

No. But that is irrelevant. This thread is about the Qur'an. Since you asked questions about the Gospel, I thought we might try posing some similar (not intended to be identical) questions of the Qur'an.

Why the christians whenever the Bible to be criticised,they resort to the Quran,is something beyond me!!!

Because this is a thread about the Qur'an. Why in a thread about the Qur'an, Muslims begin to question the integrity of the Bible is beyond me!!! (No, I do get it, Follower opened the door to those questions with his opening post.) Imam, you opened the door to questions about the Qur'an with your post; you also meticulously avoided answering them.

Plainly put, how do you know two things:
1) that the Qur'an you read today is identical to the one that Mohammad (pbuh) is supposed to have received? Who/where are the witnesses that can personally testify to this?
2) that the communicator of the Qur'an to Mohammad was actually the angel Jibreel and not some other source. Again, who/where are the witness that can testify to this event?

These are major claims that Islam makes about the Qur'an, claims that are part of the Qur'an itself, and yet to the best of my knowledge there is no independent testimony for this most crucial of all events in the transmittal of the Qur'an. All that is foundational to Islam is simply taken on faith that what Muhammad says about the origins of the Qur'an are in fact true.


Now, one may cite to me proofs such as:

And this quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. 10:37

But I find such "proofs" to be nothing more than a self-serving circular argument. Such quotes are about as valid for "proving" the Qur'an as 2 Timothy 3:16 --"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." -- is for proving that the Bible is the word of God. Which is to say that neither of these verses prove anything to anyone but those who are already believers in them.

 

[جوري]

The Quran has stood the test of time, no greater testament than the number of converts to Islam yearly, to the number of dropouts from Christianity, the question should better be phrased, can the 'NT' withstand another 50 yrs without some instant find in the deserts of Syria to amend it, or how to embellish it to shove down throats the concept of the man/god hovering spirit who descended to be ineffectual at least in saving his own self for something as anti-climactic as eating people's sins so they are free to do as they please...
Islam goes with science and nature and 'fitrah' of man whereas Christianity is very counter intuitive to nature.. the more stories you have to amend and concoct the least likely that there is any truth in it..

all the best

 

[جوري]

I think this is an excellent addition to this thread that deals with amongst other things the law of combinatorics which delves fathoms deeper into other facets of the Quran

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/13998-prove-quran-word-god-4.html#post196431

 

[Grace Seeker]

I still await for someone to address the question of witnesses that I have raised. Who is able to testify to the veracity of Muhammad's claim that the message he delived came from an angel and is in fact the same message that was given to him? How do we know that what we have received as the Qur'an is in fact the same recitation that Muhammad is supposed to have received? Where are those who can testify of their own knowledge that this is so?

 

[جوري]

The Quran is its own testament..
you need not see the bee to know from whence came the honey!

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Quran is its own testament..
you need not see the bee to know from whence came the honey!

As predicted:

Now, one may cite to me proofs such as:

And this quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds. 10:37

But I find such "proofs" to be nothing more than a self-serving circular argument. Such quotes are about as valid for "proving" the Qur'an as 2 Timothy 3:16 --"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." -- is for proving that the Bible is the word of God. Which is to say that neither of these verses prove anything to anyone but those who are already believers in them.